Cables do not make a difference

[Jack Hammer]

This is why I asked you to read it carefully. You missed the bigger picture, totally.
A video cable, designed to be a video cable was compared to a 120V AC extension cable, not another video cable at all.

Yeah, you're right, I completely missed that. I am curious though as to the thickness of an extension cord (what gauge wire is it?) and how that can fairly compare to a smaller gauge interconnect. What I mean is, is wire gauge a factor in signal? Shouldn't they be equal for it to be a 'real' comparison?

I can easily see and reproduce a difference between a cheap (~$10?)(sorry don't know brand, had them a long time) COMPONENT VIDEO cable and the Acoustic Research PRII ($50) component video cable I'm using between my reciever and TV. Both are 6ft. This is especially noticeable when when I choose my source as my PS2 (specifically when I play SOCOM II). The cheaper cable gives me a grainer picture.


Yes, this is the claim.
I am questioning that claim, that is all. After all, it wasn't a controlled comparison, so who knows how reliable the observation.

It is a claim and I have reverified it for myself by trading out the cables and putting the same video game back in my ps2. It is a 100% noticeable difference. For the record, I can't comment on the build quality of the older cables. As I stated before, they were fairly cheap cables I picked up years ago. So to be clear, I haven't tried using the same cheap cables that others may have that may or may not have a better build quality. Just that in this particular case there is a easily duplicatible difference. And for me, that on its own negates any claim that ALL cables are the same.

And I would say based upon my personal experience with these cables that there still may be poorly made cables sold in some stores. It probably wouldn't hurt for others to clarify that when they recommend others just buy cheap cables, ie "get the ones at Walmart, they are just as good." Because anyone who claims there is no difference just may have gotten lucky and never purchased inferior cables.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yeah, you're right, I completely missed that. I am curious though as to the thickness of an extension cord (what gauge wire is it?) and how that can fairly compare to a smaller gauge interconnect. What I mean is, is wire gauge a factor in signal? Shouldn't they be equal for it to be a 'real' comparison?

The wire gauge is also there, 16GA in this case. No, wires do not have to be the same GA to be compared. They were looking for an extreme case to compare. Granted, the video frequency band may not have been as wide as some of today's video signals but it shows you how unimportant cables can be that even a non-video cable worked quite well.

What the key to a bias free comparison is bias controlled protocols, the subject not knowing which cable is being used on that trial, or, human bias will alter the outcome.



It is a claim and I have reverified it for myself by trading out the cables and putting the same video game back in my ps2. It is a 100% noticeable difference.

This is where you need to do a bias controlled comparison. Your subconscious bias will affect even what you see, same as what you will hear would be affected.


Just that in this particular case there is a easily duplicatible difference.

Yes, but your protocol was biased, unreliable.



And for me, that on its own negates any claim that ALL cables are the same.

No one is claiming 'all cables' are the same. There was a published article on a DBT comparison between 24ga, 16ga and 12 ga speaker wires. Yes, there was a difference between the 24ga and the others, not between the 16ga and 12ga. Some cables are better shielded and is right in some harsh environments. Well designed and comparable cables are the same audibly.

And I would say based upon my personal experience with these cables that there still may be poorly made cables sold in some stores.

I am sure of that. But, for a meaningful comparison, you need a better protocol.

 

[Tone]

Bottom line.. speaker wire can make a difference going from cheap to great wire, but interconnects not really unless there is a problem with shielding on the cheap cable.

 

[Ampdog]

Just to recap: Nobody ever said that cables do not make a difference, but Agular's original statement referred to cables in audio. At several MHz the picture could certainly be different, while at several 100 MHz ......

In case nobody noticed, one of the best investigations I have seen is on this very site under Set-up Tips; AV Interconnects etc,; Speaker Cable face-off by Sticky. Any basic investigation would show that neither capacitance, inductance nor resistance would play a remote role in practical audio cables - I am talking of domestic conditions and at least half-decent wires.

Yet one sees these parameters bandied about by manufacturers and pseudo scientists; always qualitative, never quantitive. Regarding mysterious effects of di-electric charge retention (signal is ac), presence of gas molecules, diodic behaviour and even oxygen-free phenomena; apart from the snake-oil aura nobody has ever proved their contribution or even existance. Proper blind tests have often proved the opposite. But read the above thread!

 

[Jack Hammer]

Bottom line.. speaker wire can make a difference going from cheap to great wire, but interconnects not really unless there is a problem with shielding on the cheap cable.

Or possibly wire gauge used to make those cables. I can easily state as fact that not ALL audio cables are made with the same gauge wire. I have some that are maybe ?20-22? gauge (the rca end pulled off and they are thin wire), and some that are much heavier gauge.

Back to the other statement from gene that "only poorly designed cables are sonically distinguishable". One point I was trying to make earlier is people need to stop telling people to buy the cheapest cables they can find, because those may not be well designed. If you are going to recomend a cheap cable, tell people which ones, ie "get the radio shack gold cables for $6," so they don't go to the dollar store and buy crappily designed POS cables.

My $0.02

 

[mtrycrafts]

Or possibly wire gauge used to make those cables. I can easily state as fact that not ALL audio cables are made with the same gauge wire. I have some that are maybe ?20-22? gauge (the rca end pulled off and they are thin wire), and some that are much heavier gauge.

Back to the other statement from gene that "only poorly designed cables are sonically distinguishable". One point I was trying to make earlier is people need to stop telling people to buy the cheapest cables they can find, because those may not be well designed. If you are going to recomend a cheap cable, tell people which ones, ie "get the radio shack gold cables for $6," so they don't go to the dollar store and buy crappily designed POS cables.

My $0.02

What is well designed when it comes to a 6ft interconnect, since you did include RCA plugs which is not on most speaker wires?

No, thin interconnects in those lengths are nothing that needs designing, period. Interconnect capacitance is what controls roll off. And, the input and output impedances have a big roll as well.
So, unless you keep playing with interconnects, constantly pulling and pushing, there is not much else to buy except, inexpensive ones. If looks matter, that is another story
But, that is audio science.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Bottom line.. speaker wire can make a difference going from cheap to great wire, .

Please tell me about those differences between cheap and great wire, what makes them so special?

 

[dp_pb]

You can hear differences in cables. not always but sometimes. If the resolution of your system / room combination is good enough, you can hear quite large differences. If it is not good enough, you will not be able to hear the difference. this is because its a small difference and it could easily be masked by noise elsewhere in your system.

that said, there are plenty of companies selling "high end" cable that is crap. and yes, you can easily find cheaper cable or even home made cable that meets a high standard.

you got to take it home and listen to it. as awefully geeky as it may be (and quite funny when your family/friends ask what are you doing? and you reply that you are listening to cables.... ) this is the only way to find one you like..

cheers.
dp

 

[mtrycrafts]

You can hear differences in cables. not always but sometimes. If the resolution of your system / room combination is good enough, you can hear quite large differences.

Urban legend, unsupported by evidence, real evidence, not testimonials.

http://www.vxm.com/21R.64.html

Mr. Transparent Audio refused to try and differentiate his cable from no name brand, in his high resolution, very expensive setup.


this is because its a small difference and it could easily be masked by noise elsewhere in your system.

No, it is masked by ones hearing capability and masking and complexity of the music. Oh, yes, complex signals are more difficult to differentiate than simple sine waves or pink noise. That is a fact.


you got to take it home and listen to it.

Well, but the problem becomes how one listens, with ones eyes or only ones ears That requires bias controlled protocols.