Cables affecting sound stage?

[markw]

Please reread the original question, only tis time more carefully.

The original post requested scientific data regarding different cable affect on sound.
Any cable will have,
Resistance
Capacitance
Inductance
Propagation Delay
In the audio frequency range (so low that it is almost D.C.) Reactive components (inductance and capacitance) will be insignificant relative to the source and load.
Resistance will only be a factor if using too small of guage for the current.

We are aware of this, and this was never disputed.

However, please note that OP was asking aout one specific area of "improvement".

Hi,

I have heard this claim from some people, that a cable can affect the width and depth of the sound stage. I don't understand this. I assume there are EE's on the forum, but is there a scientific principle that allows for this, some scientific proof that it *can* affect sound stage or is it all just gobbledegook?

Surely there is an answer to this.

So, let's change his "can" to "does". Is that was your answer to this, or were you just trying to show off?

 

[cpp]

About the only way I have ever heard a difference in speaker or interconnect cables is if the cable was unplugged.

These cable companies I guess have to make a living somehow by finding some poor old person that just needs to spend some money. I must say I actually did test a Nordost Frey speaker cable ( not buy) from a store owner friend of mine against a BJ Canare 4S11 which I own, of course the Nordost was a lot prettier, fancier looking and more shinny, but there was not difference in sound to my ears, or to my friends ears. But is sure was pretty.
Sometimes people look at things as "if it looks good it must be good" , just my old opinion.

 

[mtrycrafts]

About the only way I have ever heard a difference in speaker or interconnect cables is if the cable was unplugged.

These cable companies I guess have to make a living somehow by finding some poor old person that just needs to spend some money. I must say I actually did test a Nordost Frey speaker cable ( not buy) from a store owner friend of mine against a BJ Canare 4S11 which I own, of course the Nordost was a lot prettier, fancier looking and more shinny, but there was not difference in sound to my ears, or to my friends ears. But is sure was pretty.
Sometimes people look at things as "if it looks good it must be good" , just my old opinion.

"some poor old person" ??? you mean poor or rich young person is excluded?

Also, all that beauty is behind the speakers and components; don't understand that. But then, I don't chrome plate parts under the hood.

 

[cpp]

"some poor old person" ??? you mean poor or rich young person is excluded?

Also, all that beauty is behind the speakers and components; don't understand that. But then, I don't chrome plate parts under the hood.

Well it could be just rich

 

[3db]

I can't believe you all don't think the cables you choose can impact sound stage. OK, lets say you start with a 3' long piece of cheap 12 guage speaker wire to connect your stereo speakers with them. You cut the speaker wire in half so you only have two 18" wires. You wire your stereo speakers to your receiver and turn it on with the speakers about 3' from each other. The result... You have a very compressed sound stage. Now, if you go out and purchase some top of the line, 10' long speaker wires, and wire your speakers up to your receiver, now about 20' apart depending on your room size, you will find that your sound stage just opens up like magic. Obviously, it's the better speaker wire that made the difference, not the greater seperation of the speakers... Looks like everybody should use expensive speaker wires...

Wire gauge and getting ripped off from cable manufacturers are two different animals. There are suggested cable lengths for a given wire diameter as shown. If you meet these requirements, it makes no difference if the cable is12 gauge lamp chord or 12" uber expensive speaker cable. The only difference you will find is the extra money in your pocket from not following the rest of the lemmings over the cliff.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/speaker-cable-gauge



nevermind... it was a joke... teaches me to read thru a post serially

 

[sterling shoote]

I've always started out using the cables packaged with the electronics purchased. About two years ago, I purchased a Roxio LP to MP3 kit. It included a DAC and some RCA cables. Having noise issues using the Roxio DAC with supplied cable, experiments revealed the cable was defective. This is the only experience I've known of a cable actually effecting the sound in the 40 plus years I've been an audiophile. I do buy custom cables, not for perceived sound benefit, but to get lengths necessary for connection needs.

 

[Ampdog]

Folks,

I think everything has been said (for the umpteemth time), but just in case an honest beginner is reading:

Yes, we can prove that cables cannot make a difference in audio in normal domestic difference, i.e. not talking of hundreds of feet. The golden ear fraternity often says scientists do not know everything - sure; but we know certain things. And modern measuring instruments are more than enable us to verify the same.

Referring to hearing per se: I am often surprised how everything may be suspect except for the hearing faculty. As with all our senses, it can be 'mesmerised' by circumstances. There are dozens (hundreds?) of papers published about this. And lastly, and with due respect for some researchers: I have seen really exemplary experiments trying to prove an audible cable effect and apparently succeeded according to the author, But upon careful examination I have not yet read one paper really proving anything. The results are obtained are either at super-audio frequencies (the horisontal scale of a presented graph conveniently omitted) or objectionable amplitudes are under the threshold of audibility.

Apology for repeating basics, but I do know that folks can honestly be influenced by the above. (I have also corresponcence from certain cable manufacturers on the matter, which I will spare members - one well-known company executive wrote, almost whispering in my ear: 'Strange things happen when wire-strands meet' ....)

 

[mtrycrafts]

Folks,

...The golden ear fraternity often says scientists do not know everything - sure; but we know certain things. ....)

No they don't know everything but I am pretty sure they know a whole lot more than those in that fraternity.

 

[3db]

No they don't know everything but I am pretty sure they know a whole lot more than those in that fraternity.

What?? I can't hear you... wait.. I have to pull this cable out of my ear.

 

[mtrycrafts]

What?? I can't hear you... wait.. I have to pull this cable out of my ear.

Well, it is better than pulling it out of somewhere else

 

[Irvrobinson]

And the beat goes on: Nordost Premiers the Valhalla 2 | Stereophile.com

 

[Adam]

And the beat goes on: Nordost Premiers the Valhalla 2 | Stereophile.com

I particularly liked this part:

Skov sold his power chord: “Your system will never sound better than the first power chord you have.”

I don't think that I interpret that in the way that he meant it.

 

[avliner]

Adam,

you're spot on on that one, as you may interpret it as " don't change your first power cord (the standard one), as your system will never sound better than that", though

Something else to think about... “The Valhalla 2 Reference Speaker Cable…The transmission speed of the cable is extremely fast, at over 96% the speed of light.”

Well, considering we're just about ready to get into the "hyper-space" mumbo, all I can say is that my MP cables are not that fast at all; I mean, they only reach 95,987654321% of the speed of light; therefore I do accept the fact that I'll never be a "pole-sitter" in that race, for sure!!

 

[cpp]

I guess all of these high cost voodoo cables, wooden knobs, ball bearing supports, cable elevators at one time or another deserve their place on the BS meter.

 

[markw]

I like how they announced when the new, improved cable was put into play and the old, inferior one replaced. It's really too bad they didn't let the subjects guess which was which. After all, if the improvements were so obviously apparent, they should have been clearly audible and identifiable without being led, no?

 

[avengineer]

Adam,

you're spot on on that one, as you may interpret it as " don't change your first power cord (the standard one), as your system will never sound better than that", though

Something else to think about... “The Valhalla 2 Reference Speaker Cable…The transmission speed of the cable is extremely fast, at over 96% the speed of light.”

Well, considering we're just about ready to get into the "hyper-space" mumbo, all I can say is that my MP cables are not that fast at all; I mean, they only reach 95,987654321% of the speed of light; therefore I do accept the fact that I'll never be a "pole-sitter" in that race, for sure!!

Two things about velocity of propagation: typical coaxial cable VOP is in the 70 to 80% (of the speed of light) range, and is a function of the dielectric material used between the inner conductor and the outer conductor/shield. Its very difficult to find or make cable in the high 80% range. Some specialized foam insulations barely get into the low 90% range, so 96% is an impressive, if somewhat unbelievable figure. Of course in audio, VOP is a meaningless figure. It is important if you are trying to maintain proper phasing of antenna elements at a Gigahertz or so.

What's even more impressive and unbelievable is the VOCF (Velocity Of Cash Flow) for that demo system, which also approaches 96% of the speed of light. In that circuit, I'd never be the source, but I'd love to be the sink.

 

[3db]

There's still way too much BS and snakeoil being perpetuated out there. Its bad enough when the vendors are peddling this crap, but it really irks me when you get the so called "golden ear" expert reviewers involved in peddling this crap with no objective data to support their claims. Not that anyone will ever find objective evidence to support the notion that cables and interconnects affect sound.

 

[avengineer]

Isn't in fascinating that the existence of "snake-oil" products only bothers those who would never buy them? Those that do buy them don't seem to care. Perhaps they deserve each other.

 

[little wing]

$9799 for interconnects???? Who in the hell buys them?? you can buy a Marantz 8801 PreAmp a Parasound Amp and some RBH speakers for less then that!
Unbelievable........

 

[avengineer]

If the cost of those cables was $1000 (doubtful), that would be a margin of $8799 per set. How many would you have to sell to make that a worth-while product? I'm guessing a less than 100 copies would do the trick, 200 copies would be a no-brainer. Do you think there are 100 people in this crazy world who would pay almost $10K for interconnects?

You-betcha! People with money buy lots of stuff that isn't worth what they spend.

And thus another snake-oil product is born.