Buying an amp $1000 limit, old vs new, What would you do?

jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I have been to every single forum I can find, getting more confused regarding what to get by the minute, I need to audition more speakers. Ive only heard one stereo that sounded perfect, my brothers, everything else Ive heard does not work for me. I like Paradigm, but the ones I can afford need a sub, Ive never heard a sub I liked and Ive listened to alot, even REL...
Bottom line is to use your ears. Don't worry about the amplification portion for right now. Just get a trusted brand. Focus on what is most important: Speakers.

Any of the amps listed along with decent cabling will get the signal there.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Im starting to second guess what speakers to get. How do I listen to speakers and decide when the other components are often different?
I'm no expert on this stuff like TLS, WmAx, and several others, but I have spent the last 4 months obsessively reading everything I can on how to most effectively put together a music only system. This is my best understanding:

The variation in sound between speakers is much greater than the audible variation between electronics.

Get the speakers you like first.

I sympathize that when you read Stereophile magazine articles, they make it sound like the newest mega-buck amp totally eclipses the lowly amps most of us might actually afford with a night-day differences. Often they will use more dramatic terms than might be used for a review of speakers. It is their job to make these differences interesting for the readers and maintain a level of excitement.
I believe it is a placebo affect, that amp with the jewelery-case shine sure looks better and you "hear" it.

Look at it this way.
If you look at test results for any modern amp, you will see FR established way beyond our ears range with a variance of -0.5dB (less than we can detect), distortion levels established to be well below our ears ability, etc. Why can't they find something to measure which we can correlate to sound quality?

If you look at test results for speakers, you typically see variations in the FR (generally around ±3dB) which are detectable with the naked ear, a low end that falls off before reaching the limits of your hearing ability, dispersion characteristics which are audible, etc. All of these correlate to sound quality and you can hear them!

Conceptually, consider 95% of the SQ you hear to be dependent on the speakers and 5% on the balance of the other gear (that is being generous, IMHO).

Room acoustics is the only other place to get the kind of variations (read "improvements") you get from speakers.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Im starting to second guess what speakers to get. How do I listen to speakers and decide when the other components are often different?
There isn't much sound variance caused by non-speaker components unless they are defective (or/and in the case of an amp, under-powered). Focus on speakers and the room.

Ive heard my friends sterio (infinity speakers) that he spent about $4000 on, it sounds terrible , the bass is so muffled. He does have a small room though...that could be a big factor perhaps.
There are a lot of things that can cause spikes and dips in bass, especially in a small room.

That said: the room is part of the equipment. Combined with speakers and speaker-placement: this it "it" when it comes to what you hear.

So Many speaker/amp choices, what to do?
Pick a budget. Guesstimate what non-speakers non-treatments will cost you. Look at speakers up to what's left. Make sure that said speakers won't require more amp (or that you have money for more amp)... generally only an issue with low-efficiency speakers (planars for example).

Strongly consider units you can audition and return. Buy your gear, try it out, return and replace if the speakers aren't right.

Ill start a new post...to get some ideas...[/QUOTE]

Ive only heard one stereo that sounded perfect, my brothers, everything else Ive heard does not work for me.
We could likely be more useful if you told us what your standard of perfection was.

I like Paradigm, but the ones I can afford need a sub, Ive never heard a sub I liked and Ive listened to alot, even REL...
Really? What was the universal problem?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
To WmAx,

What Yamaha pro amps are you using? Or what components are in your main system? Im a yamaha's fan and see if I can do the same. Thanks.
Yamaheart, I use a P2500S for the tweeters, a P3500S for the mids and a P3500S for the woofers, in my fully active 3 way speaker system. In addition, I use a Yamaha RX-V2600 as the pre-amp in my stereo system. It has a pre-amp section that measures superbly and I love it's streamlined non-cluttered looks and thick aluminum front plate. I chose this over dedicated stereo pre-amp(I have had 'audiophile' pre-amps in the past) after Gene told of it's superb performance a couple of years back. I use a Behringer DCX2496 as the brains of the system ; it is an active crossover and sophisticated EQ system. For sources, I have a Marantz CC4001 5 disc CD changer and a Marantz TT-15S1 turntable feeding a Music Hall MMF Phono Pack phono preamplifier, which measures superbly, of course.

-Chris
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If you look at test results for speakers, you typically see variations in the FR (generally around ±3dB) which are detectable with the naked ear, a low end that falls off before reaching the limits of your hearing ability, dispersion characteristics which are audible, etc. All of these correlate to sound quality and you can hear them!
I would add that even the highly regarded (even by WmAx) near top range B&W802D has much higher distortion figures than most amps.

802D
Harmonic Distortion 2nd and 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m)
<1% 40Hz – 100kHz
<0.5% 70Hz –100kHz

Mid range amps and receivers
Most mid range amps have THD (total, not just 2nd and 3rd <0.05%) the Yamaha pro amp that WmAx (Chris) talked about has THD and IMD <0.1%

You are absolutely right, aside from the recording itself, a high quality amp should add to the sound quality, but all measurables point to speakers and room acoustic influence the final outcome much more.
 
Y

Yamaheart

Full Audioholic
Yamaheart, I use a P2500S for the tweeters, a P3500S for the mids and a P3500S for the woofers, in my fully active 3 way speaker system.

-Chris
Wow, does that Tri-amping the speakers? And what brand of speakers are you using? I'm also using an Yamaha EQ-70, and I can tell the difference with the EQ in a good way. What do you think of my EQ, is it okay?
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Wow, does that Tri-amping the speakers? And what brand of speakers are you using? I'm also using an Yamaha EQ-70, and I can tell the difference with the EQ in a good way. What do you think of my EQ, is it okay?
Because his speakers are actively crossed over they require separate channels for each driver. His speakers are designed and built by himself. Your EQ is analog. The Behringer that WmAx is using is a far more complex and effective piece of equipment. Using computer software he can measure how the speaker produces audible frequencies and correct them, all of them, with the Behringer. The nature of the Yamaha EQ is rather simplistic and no where near as refined. Chris would regard most, if not all, analog equalizers as being less than desirable because of their inherent limitations.

Analog equalizers boost a band and they create a hump with a peak or dip. If you've ever seen what peaks and dips look like only an oscilloscope you may know what I mean. Say for example you want to adjust the 2kHz slider to a higher position. When you raise the slider it doesn't boost just one frequency, it boosts a "band" of frequencies. As the 2kHz position increases the frequencies in front of and behind come up with it, but not to the same intensity. The further the frequency is from 2kHz the less it is affected by the EQ.

This was the best example I was able to find quickly, it doesn't directly relate since it doesn't use Hz. However you can still see the point being made with the bell curve.



This isn't to say that equalizers such as yours are without purpose, just that Chris is an audio perfectionist and that you will have to accept he will recommend only what he absolutely knows will give you accurate performance.
 
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Y

Yamaheart

Full Audioholic
Because his speakers are actively crossed over they require separate channels for each driver. His speakers are designed and built by himself. Your EQ is analog. The Behringer that WmAx is using is a far more complex and effective piece of equipment. Using computer software he can measure how the speaker produces audible frequencies and correct them, all of them, with the Behringer. The nature of the Yamaha EQ is rather simplistic and no where near as refined. Chris would regard most, if not all, analog equalizers as being less than desirable because of their inherent limitations.

Analog equalizers boost a band and they create a hump with a peak or dip. If you've ever seen what peaks and dips look like only an oscilloscope you may know what I mean. Say for example you want to adjust the 2kHz slider to a higher position. When you raise the slider it doesn't boost just one frequency, it boosts a "band" of frequencies. As the 2kHz position increases the frequencies in front of and behind come up with it, but not to the same intensity. The further the frequency is from 2kHz the less it is affected by the EQ.

This was the best example I was able to find quickly, it doesn't directly relate since it doesn't use Hz. However you can still see the point being made with the bell curve.



This isn't to say that equalizers such as yours are without purpose, just that Chris is an audio perfectionist and that you will have to accept he will recommend only what he absolutely knows will give you accurate performance.
Ill take any recommendations. Would the Behringer DCX do any good to my current setup? Is there a Yamaha equivalent to the Behringer DCX? I'm trying to stay in the Yamaha family. Im pretty sure I've seen the Yamaha equivalent to the DCX on their website. Would it be really hard for me to mess with the DCX with my average knowledge. Thanks...
 
M

mibson

Audioholic
Pick a budget.

I have determined that Im able to spend at most $2000 on two tower speakers, been doing alot of research and listening. Still deciding. I really like reviews of the Emotiva amps, seriously concidering one of those...

Strongly consider units you can audition and return. Buy your gear, try it out, return and replace if the speakers aren't right.

I will only buy speakers I listen to, but I will probably buy online to save money, can I have a few suggestions of good online stores that ship to Canada?

We could likely be more useful if you told us what your standard of perfection was.

The only sterio Ive heard that I think sounds great is my brothers. I dont know the entire setup but he has full range Sonus Fabers, Pilenius amps, some special dac, and a very good cd player. No way I can spend this much, so Im working on a good compromise.

Really? What was the universal problem?
All subs sound "loose" and dont seem to work with music (ok for movies), my cousin is a BASS player in a band, he has a high end David Eden Bass Amp and speakers, it is very tight, the sound of the low bass is there and then gone as it should be, all subs Ive heard the sound seems to linger unnaturally. I pretty sure I will not use a sub for music, just for movies...
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
All subs sound "loose" and dont seem to work with music (ok for movies), my cousin is a BASS player in a band, he has a high end David Eden Bass Amp and speakers, it is very tight, the sound of the low bass is there and then gone as it should be, all subs Ive heard the sound seems to linger unnaturally. I pretty sure I will not use a sub for music, just for movies...
I have never heard a sub(by itself, using crude receiver xover, etc.) sound absolutely correct. However, with stereo subs and a powerful crossover and EQ like the DCX2496, it is trivial to get perfect integrated bass.

-Chris
 
J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
Using a lot more subwoofer than you need helps to keep them inside of the operating range where they will sound good. Your bass won't sound loose if you're doing that. (But we're talking something that is going to cost thousands at a minimum.)

I also agree you should pick the speakers first.
 
M

mibson

Audioholic
Im not scared of DIY perhaps Its time to learn more...

A separate amp for each driver! I like this idea...

Chris sounds like he knows what is going on, where can I read online to learn what he has done?

Chris can you explain, where I can learn what you have done with your system?
 
jp_over

jp_over

Full Audioholic
Yamaheart, I use a P2500S for the tweeters, a P3500S for the mids and a P3500S for the woofers, in my fully active 3 way speaker system. In addition, I use a Yamaha RX-V2600 as the pre-amp in my stereo system. It has a pre-amp section that measures superbly and I love it's streamlined non-cluttered looks and thick aluminum front plate. I chose this over dedicated stereo pre-amp(I have had 'audiophile' pre-amps in the past) after Gene told of it's superb performance a couple of years back. I use a Behringer DCX2496 as the brains of the system ; it is an active crossover and sophisticated EQ system. For sources, I have a Marantz CC4001 5 disc CD changer and a Marantz TT-15S1 turntable feeding a Music Hall MMF Phono Pack phono preamplifier, which measures superbly, of course.

-Chris
Chris,

How do you switch on all that gear? Do you manually turn each amp on when you want to listen or is there a switched system that works with your receiver remote? Thanks for all your excellent insight!

Joe
 
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J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
While the DCX2496 makes it easy to create a 3-way active speaker, I'm not sure I'd want to use it for my mains. The DCX2496 is going to convert from analog to digital and then back again in order to apply the filters. I'd worry about some degradation there.

I do use a DCX2496 for my subwoofers, but trying to build my own crossover for either an existing speaker or speakers of my own design is a significant endeavor. Just because the DCX2496 provides programmable filters doesn't mean you'd get it all right. The impact on phase would also be important.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
While the DCX2496 makes it easy to create a 3-way active speaker, I'm not sure I'd want to use it for my mains. The DCX2496 is going to convert from analog to digital and then back again in order to apply the filters. I'd worry about some degradation there.

I do use a DCX2496 for my subwoofers, but trying to build my own crossover for either an existing speaker or speakers of my own design is a significant endeavor. Just because the DCX2496 provides programmable filters doesn't mean you'd get it all right. The impact on phase would also be important.
The DCX produces no audible coloration; just another imagined issue.

Both of my systems use the DCX, and it is the extremely rare audiophile system indeed, that can even come remotely close to my main system, regardless of cost. The DCX certainly is no hurdle to SQ in my system. The DCX produces the same identical phase response errors as a passive network. In the real world, these are not an true audibility issue according to credible perceptual research in the field.

Now, you are right that just because the DCX has programmable filters, that it does not mean someone will automatically be able to design a great crossover. The same skill is needed to produce a great electronic active filter program as is needed to produce a great passive design. The active simply makes it a faster process (not having to build/tweak passive filter physically), and also the active allows far greater fine tuning/adjust ability. Even someting as

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Chris,

How do you switch on all that gear? Do you manually turn each amp on when you want to listen or is there a switched system that works with your receiver remote? Thanks for all your excellent insight!

Joe
I manually turn on each item. Takes all of 5 seconds....

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
A separate amp for each driver! I like this idea...

Chris sounds like he knows what is going on, where can I read online to learn what he has done?

Chris can you explain, where I can learn what you have done with your system?
Uhm, it's no simple task to design such a system. However, if you use a pre-existing design, it's a great idea. I would recommend the Linkwitz Orion. A very high grade speaker system designed by one of the leading engineers in the field.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

You definitely need to add a good pair of stereo subs, though.

-Chris
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Uttt Ohhhhh....someone needs to come over to the Dawg's house and hear a real sub....
All subs sound "loose" and dont seem to work with music (ok for movies), my cousin is a BASS player in a band, he has a high end David Eden Bass Amp and speakers, it is very tight, the sound of the low bass is there and then gone as it should be, all subs Ive heard the sound seems to linger unnaturally. I pretty sure I will not use a sub for music, just for movies...
 
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