Bridge Collapse in Baltimore

[TLS Guy]

I guess you missed the first video showing the ship being steered directly at the pylon.

I think the problem was that the ship was not being steered at all. I think all systems were down. The current at the time on the ebb tide, was 7 to 7.5 Knotts I understand. The ship has also been under way at about 8.5 knotts when this failure happened. So the ship would have only been powered enough to allow steering by the rudder.
So they had no means of holding it against the tide. So the ship was entirely at the mercy of the ebb tide and prevailing wind. That is what was steering the ship and there was no human interaction from the crew, and the crew and pilot were powerless to intervene.

It is clear to me you know absolutely nothing of maritime issues.

 

[lovinthehd]

I guess you missed the first video showing the ship being steered directly at the pylon.

You're saying the tug steered it toward the pylon?

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm not saying anything. Most of the video available is barely ledgible. TLS guy says that the ebb tide and wind could account for the appearance of the ship being maneuvered (the video is time lapse) so, who knows.

There is enough information available to know that the ship was NOT "maneuvered" into the bridge, but was entirely at the mercy of wind and tide. You have obviously never been in control of a vessel in a fast flowing river or tidal estuary, especially in a significant wind. I have, but obviously not a vessel of that size or class. However, the principles of taking into account wind, tide and the handling and design of you boat are universal to safe boatmanship in these conditions. You have to think ahead and line up all your approaches. Any sudden mechanical failure is likely to get you and your boat in a disaster in a confined space. The bigger the ship the greater the disaster.

I grew up navigating waters very similar to the conditions in Baltimore on the rivers Medway and Thames. They ran peak and ebb tides of similar flows depending on whether they were Spring or Neap tides. When the sun and moon are in phase you have the Spring tides and when they are out of phase the Neaps. Flows are much higher in Spring than Neap tides. Flows are highest between high and low tide, with slack water at the turn of the tide. So every tidal river and estuary sailor in whatever class of vessel, has to be constantly aware of the time of day and state of the tide.

 

[Dude#1279435]

I think the side current Jeff mentions as well as when the power went out. He mentions something about the tug boats were at port so they wouldn't have made it in time. I have it time stamped....

 

[Swerd]

I think the problem was that the ship was not being steered at all. I think all systems were down. The current at the time on the ebb tide, was 7 to 7.5 Knotts I understand. The ship has also been under way at about 8.5 knotts when this failure happened. So the ship would have only been powered enough to allow steering by the rudder.

So they had no means of holding it against the tide. So the ship was entirely at the mercy of the ebb tide and prevailing wind. That is what was steering the ship and there was no human interaction from the crew, and the crew and pilot were powerless to intervene.

This is exactly right. Other than TLS Guy's comment, not enough has been made about this point.

The Dali was moving at about 8.5 knots relative to the bridge, but the Dali's speed through the water was much less. So low a speed that when power failed, the rudder could only have a small effect on steering. At ebb tide, the river flows down stream toward the Chesapeake Bay, the same direction as the Dali. Because of the power failure, the Dali was essentially adrift. That's why it appeared to steer to the starboard, into the bridge pylon.

Compare a ship's movement through a tidal current to that of airplane taking off. Imagine the airplane needs an air speed (relative to the air) of 100 mph to get airborne. The direction of the wind matters. If there was a wind of 15 mph coming against the plane's rolling direction on the runway, the airplane could take off when it's land speed was 85 mph. If that 15 mph wind was coming from behind the airplane (tail wind), it would need a land speed of 115 mph to take off.

Instead of a wing and air speed, consider a ship's rudder and the river current's speed. The Dali may have been moving at 8.5 knots relative to the bridge (land speed), but because of the ebb tide (tail wind), its hull and rudder were moving through the water at a lower speed – low enough for the ship to loose control over its direction.

 

[lovinthehd]

This guy has some more explanations of what might be eventually be revealed (or not)

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm not saying anything. Most of the video available is barely ledgible. TLS guy says that the ebb tide and wind could account for the appearance of the ship being maneuvered (the video is time lapse) so, who knows.

The tugs had already peeled off before the problems began. They tried calling them back but not in time for any to assist.

 

[TLS Guy]

This guy has some more explanations of what might be eventually be revealed (or not)

I think the above is the best analysis of the sequence of events so far. I find it interesting that he is certain the main engine was not restarted. He does think that one and of the main generators at least and likely two restarted briefly. It does seem that the emergency generator likely did not start.

It seems to me that I am not alone in thinking there is a high probability of a fuel problem as indicated by the failure of multiple engines and the black smoke. That makes two of the best authorities I have seen put a fuel problem at the top of the list. If that is so, then this was either a massive inadvertent mistake or deliberate. So a terrorist act cannot be excluded. Someone with knowledge could be pretty sure how long it would take for adulterated fuel to get to the engines, and realize there would be a high probability it would be in the main channel somewhere in the vicinity of the bridge.

 

[Swerd]

I briefly looked at that video, but quickly stopped. Instead of taking 23 minutes, he could have simply said:

Until we know some real results from the investigation, all this is speculation … needless speculation.​

 

[highfigh]

This is exactly right. Other than TLS Guy's comment, not enough has been made about this point.

The Dali was moving at about 8.5 knots relative to the bridge, but the Dali's speed through the water was much less. So low a speed that when power failed, the rudder could only have a small effect on steering. At ebb tide, the river flows down stream toward the Chesapeake Bay, the same direction as the Dali. Because of the power failure, the Dali was essentially adrift. That's why it appeared to steer to the starboard, into the bridge pylon.

Compare a ship's movement through a tidal current to that of airplane taking off. Imagine the airplane needs an air speed (relative to the air) of 100 mph to get airborne. The direction of the wind matters. If there was a wind of 15 mph coming against the plane's rolling direction on the runway, the airplane could take off when it's land speed was 85 mph. If that 15 mph wind was coming from behind the airplane (tail wind), it would need a land speed of 115 mph to take off.

Instead of a wing and air speed, consider a ship's rudder and the river current's speed. The Dali may have been moving at 8.5 knots relative to the bridge (land speed), but because of the ebb tide (tail wind), its hull and rudder were moving through the water at a lower speed – low enough for the ship to loose control over its direction.

The only way the rudder could have helped is if the ship had been under power AND heading into the current. Without power and being moved by the current, it's useless and anyone who has boated on a river knows this. A smooth river bed is one thing but if it has an uneven surface, the current is very unpredictable. The water goes where the water wants to go and it will take anything on/in it along for the ride. Even under power, when the current takes control at low speed, something is gonna pucker.

Hopefully, this will cause some action on requiring a backup system for thrusters. Sure, they require a lot of power, but if this is the alternative, they have to do what's needed to prevent these collisions.

 

[highfigh]

I had forgotten about the bow thruster, so yes, six engines. The first ship I served in after joining the Navy, an AOR (RFA in RN parlance), had one. They are primarily used for maneuvering into and away from jetties. That said, it was SOP for it to be running and available when entering and leaving harbour. In this instance, I don't know if it would have helped Dali avoid the bridge. It might halve swung the bow away, but she would probably have struck the bridge broadside instead.

While I have no experience with engines like the one in Dali, practically all of the diesels I had experience with were air-started. The Volvo diesels in our RHIBs had electrical starters, but that's the only example I can think of.

If there was a problem with the fuel itself, then sure, it could cause all of the engines to fail. However, I have difficulty believing that it would cause them all to shut down almost simultaneously. Unless, as you suggest, there was a single point of failure, like a single fuel pump supplying all of the engines. You may be correct about fuel, but I'm still leaning towards some sort of major electrical failure. Or, there could be a confluence of events leading to all of the engines failing. Regardless, it's all conjecture right now.

Lots of details that would need to coincide for all to fail at the same time- does it have a pump at a common tank for fuel distribution? Are the fuel lines equal length? If both are true, it would be easy to cause this failure. Also, if a common pump or valve is electrically activated, it would be easy to sabotage in order to defeat it.

Hopefully, the Dali doesn't indicate a growing problem-

Massive container ship loses power near NYC’s Verrazzano Bridge days after Baltimore Key Bridge disaster

Massive container ship loses power near NYC’s Verrazzano Bridge days after Baltimore Key Bridge disaster

www.yahoo.com

 

[cpp]

 

[highfigh]

View attachment 66885

What about solar power?

 

[Mikado463]

plot thickens ..........

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/04/15/balitmore-key-bridge-criminal-investigation/

 

[GO-NAD!]

x.com

x.com

 

[GO-NAD!]

https://x.com/MattDursh/status/1788914089390961134

Precision cutting charges have been placed on the Francis Scott Key Bridge. Detonating the charges and sending the steel truss into the water is set for Saturday afternoon. Surprisingly, the crew on the Dali is to remain aboard and shelter in place during the event.

 

[GO-NAD!]

What's going on? Conspiracy theories have been debunked, so nobody interested in this anymore?
Demolition to remove part of Baltimore’s Key Bridge to free trapped ship postponed until Monday due to inclement weather | CNN

 

[TLS Guy]

What's going on? Conspiracy theories have been debunked, so nobody interested in this anymore?
Demolition to remove part of Baltimore’s Key Bridge to free trapped ship postponed until Monday due to inclement weather | CNN

I do think that will be the only solution, particularly below the water where you can't use cutting torches. Power cutters under water are slow and not really up to the job. Unfortunately there is no longer a crane big enough to lift that section of the bridge. So explosives I think are the only solution. However things could go badly wrong. I'm not sure it is a good idea to leave the crew on the ship during these explosions. I know there is risk if they are taken off. I'm sure they could be helicoptered on and off with a short turnaround time.

 

[lovinthehd]

What's going on? Conspiracy theories have been debunked, so nobody interested in this anymore?
Demolition to remove part of Baltimore’s Key Bridge to free trapped ship postponed until Monday due to inclement weather | CNN

Hasn't been a whole lot of news other than partial channel clearing until this.....here's the video of the demolition

 

[Swerd]

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has issued its first report on what happened in the days and moments before the Dali crashed into the Francis Scott Key Bridge over the entrance to Baltimore's harbor. This is only a preliminary report on the known facts. Later the NTSB will issue a more thorough report on what they conclude about the causes of this disaster. These facts were in the report:

• The cargo ship had experienced two blackouts a day before the crash, while still docked.
• Two more catastrophic electrical failures occurred in the minutes before the crash. These failures triggered two critical circuit breakers to trip, stopping several pumps required for the ship's single propeller and its single rudder.
• The emergency generator was not configured to power the ship.
• The ship was under the control of an apprentice pilot, who was accompanied by a senior pilot. When the pilots boarded, the ship's captain said it was in good working order.
• Crew members tested negative for drugs and alcohol.
• The ship's fuel tested negative for contaminants.
• The FBI and Coast Guard are looking into why the crew failed to report the in-port power outage, part of a criminal investigation.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/14/us/baltimore-bridge-collapse-ntsb-report/index.html

This photo shows how much damage occurred to the large container ship's bow when it ran into the bridge support pylon.