Blu-ray & HD DVD - Who Has the Upper Hand?

[Audioholics]

<A href="http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/blurayHDDVDupperhand.php"><IMG style="WIDTH: 125px; HEIGHT: 84px" alt=[hddvdbluray1] hspace=10 src="http://www.audioholics.com/news/thumbs/hddvdbluray1_th.gif" align=left border=0></A>Now that Samsung's new Blu-ray player the BD-P1000 has been out, the reviews are out on the web-o-sphere for both first strikes in the latest format war. Toshiba fired the first salvo with the HD-A1 HD DVD player hitting the market at half the price of the first Blu-ray player. According to a market research firm called iSuppli Toshiba is taking a tactical loss on its player - to the tune of $200 per unit. Being first to market and being sold at a lower cost provides an obvious advantage, but is it the better unit?

[Read the Editorial]

 

[BMXTRIX]

I simply believe that far to many items are overlooked in almost every review or statement that is made.

1. Were both formats released to early?

Well, if you care about audio, then definitely yes, but both players appear to have a few bugs that could have been worked out.

2. Is the Samsung a POS and the Toshiba far better?

I would say that the Samsung isn't as good as the Toshiba, but the Toshiba is being sold for a straight out loss. Not $200 - but far more than that as it appears parts may run nearly $700 alone, then they are sold to stores closer to $350 or so! That doesn't include build labor, or shipping, etc. Toshiba is taking a huge hit on their player to get them out to as many people as possible. The Samsung is more likley $500 in HW sold at a profit - which most companies would consider the 'proper' way to sell product. Yes, the Toshiba is a deal.

3. Is MPEG2 lousy?

No! Geez, how is it even possible to link to people who would ever make such a horrendous claim! Anyone making the statement that Blu-ray looks poor because of MPEG2 by itself, is mistaken, and poorly informed. MPEG2 is used for OTA HD and is used with DVD. The bottom line is that MPEG2, when used properly looks phenomenal. But, 1080p + 25GB + MPEG2 simply does not work on a two hour movie. 50GB is required if MPE2 is to be used. The Blu-ray Demo disc that includes AVC, VC-1, and MPEG2 show that MPEG2 can be every bit as phenomenal as long as the space is there to use it. Of course, proper encoding is required. I would be just as happy to see AVC or VC-1 in use - which, guess what!?! Blu-ray happily supports.

4. Did Blu-ray fall flat on it's face?

Geez, in some ways yes. On the other hand, I hear that the player works pretty well and the remote is decent and it doesn't lock up nearly as much as the Toshiba does. But, the titles look poor. In a year, when (if) new codecs/dual layer discs are used, the image will look every bit as good as HD-DVD, and the player still won't lock up and the remote will still work. It just is so early to be making 'final' judgements or statements it seems.

5. Is HD-DVD going to win the format war?

Come on, it's way to early to tell! Any statements made about anything related to the format war and winners or losers seems utterly ridiculous to me. HD video is NOT HD audio. People actually are buying HD displays and many know that HDMI is what they should be using. But, HD-DVD continues to only have one main hardware manufacturer at this time. They also don't have nearly the studio support that Blu-ray does. Blu-ray has a lot more going for it... but they clearly aren't ready for prime time yet. If it takes 3-4 months for Blu-ray to get a bit more up to speed and come out with dual layer discs or start using VC-1/AVC on their titles, then I will wonder what HD-DVD will have as an advantage - beyond price of the player. If Blu-ray continues to falter, without releasing more players from the major players (Panny, Sony, Pioneer, etc.) and can't get their CODECs/discs figured out, then the studios may start really looking towards releasing HD movies in the HD-DVD format.

But, with less than ONE month under their belt, it seems incredibly premature to judge Blu-ray. With just a few months, HD-DVD is no more simple to make a judgement on. I believe strongly that if HD-DVD had the industry and studio support that Blu-ray has, then this would be a slam dunk battle. But, without that, HD-DVD still has a LONG way to go and needs a lot more than a lousy CODEC to stand much of a chance. Lower pricing really only goes so far - especially if places like Best Buy, Circuit City, and other stores are specifically pushing Blu-ray over HD-DVD.

Does HD-DVD have the upper hand? When it has more studios, more manufacturer support, and really is delivering movies from all those backers - then yes. Until then, they just have a bit of an advantage right now.

I'm not about to touch the format war going on - except for PS3 which some people think won't matter at all... Well, that is yet to be known as it seems to be a pretty safe purchase for those interested who want some assurance.

 

[ned]

We can argue again and again. This editorial is no diferrent than the first. Reporting base on second hand information, incorrect information and lack of understanding of the technology in general.

I still don't understand why such a repected website keep posting unfactual and misleading article. There are articles with positive reviews but they have never been mentioned.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I think the 'positive' reviews are almost as bad as the negative ones quite often. It is just WAY to early to make almost anything but 'first impression' statements. Which should be clearly titled FIRST IMPRESSION - MEANS NOTHING. HD-DVD doesn't have the backing it needs (yet), Blu-ray isn't using the technology it should be using (yet) and both are brand new... and realistically both are overpriced for the masses.

I would want to see the numbers AFTER this holiday season before I would be willing to even contemplate make a serious statement about the format war. Everything until then is just pure speculation. Format shot in foot? No. Blu-ray lousy? No. HD-DVD to buggy? No. PS3 meaningless? No. It just is a bunch of unknowns.

 

[Audioholics]

Couple things to note:

1) This is an editorial
2) MPEG-2, while it can be beautiful is held back on BD because you have to fit the length of the movie on the 25GB disc. This is the reason for reports of macroblocking, etc... Also, larger resolution = different compression issues. This isn't DVD.
3) Despite these blunt articles, we don't want the formats to fail.
4) I am scheduled to review the new Samsung BD player as soon as they can ship it to me (paperwork has gone through). At this point there will be an honest review - delivering the first hand perspective that has been lacking.
5) I honestly don't care which format is better of "wins". I just wish the industry had been smart and taken a closer look at the past. High Definition DVD does not seem to be a replacement (now or in the near future) for DVD. It is not being marketed that way and it is not being handled that way by manufacturers or the studios.
6) Ned admitted we're respected.

So far these editorials have been observations - not reviews, so the lack of a player in hand isn't really relevant. The first editorial (by me) was more a statement of the failure of the process to impress and result in quicker user adoption. The second article is a quick assembly of initial feedback and issues. There is some good news, but it's drowning in a sea of disappointment and apparent user-apathy.

Stay tuned. I will be thorough and detailed when I get into the Samsung unit (arrives either the 30th or the 5th).

 

[racquetman]

From what I've read, both camps have gotten off to a rocky start. That's to be expected in my opinion. I just wanted to chime in on what I've read:

1) The Toshiba HD-DVD player performs much better after you download the firmware update.

2) The Samsung Blu-ray player performs much better with the component video cables being used as opposed to the HDMI connection. The poor picture quality that is being blamed on MPEG-2 encoding may in fact be because of the HDMI interface (read the article at thedigitalbits.com - they did some side by side testing with a Pioneer player that hasn't been released yet, and found that the Samsung player had HDMI issues that the Pioneer model didn't have).

Anyway, just a couple things to keep in mind at the moment.

 

[Sheep]

I love how the article didn't even accomplish its goal. Which has the upper hand?

All that babbling and he couldn't even pick one. He gave 2 senarios and left us with that. I wish people didn't beat around the bush and actually took a stance.

SheepStar (Against abortion, for killing babies [It's a joke!])

 

[ned]

4) I am scheduled to review the new Samsung BD player as soon as they can ship it to me (paperwork has gone through).

Well then you'll probably be disappointed, no doubt. If you can get a hand on the Toshiba that'll be great.

 

[ned]

Couple things to note:

1) This is an editorial.

That's the problem as it shows the bias of this site against HiDef DVD.

 

[Wayde Robson]

Honestly, I don't have an opinion about which is better. I said the smart money is on wait and see. I think it's the only way to go at this point.

Who has the upper hand? It's a rhetorical question.

The purpose of this editorial was to point out the second hand "word on the street" as I've seen, read and heard echoed through message boards and blogs I haunt to which I included links to the source.

This wasn’t supposed to be a politically correct encyclopedia. Chances are I don’t share your personal mission to convince the world that X is best. But since this is an interactive forum, you’re free to express yourself.

I don't get why people are picking sides like a bunch of rabid soccer moms. Sony and Toshiba are indifferent corporations vying for market space on the backs of early adopters. We’re all victims of their greed. By virtue of visiting this site you’ve declared you’re in the upper percentage of informed consumers. Sony and Toshiba are looking to take advantage of us, not the average Joe visiting Best Buy and getting confused.

So, please relax.

Have another coffee.

Smoke another cigarette.

Let’s keep it fun.

 

[Jedi2016]

Honestly, I don't have an opinion about which is better. I said the smart money is on wait and see. I think it's the only way to go at this point.

I agree. I think first-gen titles and only two players is a bit early to tell which one is the superior.

I imagine we'll have a better picture by the end of this year:

More players will be on the market, so it will be easier to determine whether the problems are the players or the discs.

There will be more movies to compare, some of which will be available on both formats, which will make it much easier to do a direct comparison of quality.

And, the studios will have more time with these new codecs. One of the theories I've read states that Sony (as an example) chose MPEG-2 as the video codec because they already knew how to get the most out of it. With the discs being only "half"-sized at 25GB, they felt it would be easier to get the quality out of an established, ultimately tweakable codec like MPEG-2 than to try to squeeze quality out of a virtually unknown new codec.

Add to that, that Blu-Ray discs will be dual-layer by the end of the year, and that, combined with the new codecs, will no doubt see a drastic improvement over what's been released so far. HD-DVD will likely improve it's codec use as well, so both formats will improve, but I think Blu-Ray will end up improving more compared to it's launch. Then, once both formats are at their full potential, can side-by-side comparisons be made.

Also, as more players are launched, and the studios and manufacturers try to push HD discs into the mainstream, the prices will come down. Average Joe Consumer will be much more likely to pick one up then.

I also agree that MPEG-2 is not an "inferior" codec. Bill over at The Bits said the most impressive HD video he saw over at Pioneer was encoded in MPEG-2. I prefer to think of it as a "veteran" codec rather than an "outdated" one.

 

[gene]

That's the problem as it shows the bias of this site against HiDef DVD.

Haha thats funny. Why would we be biased against a HiDef DVD technology that can improve audio and video quality over normal DVD?

I personally don't care who wins the format war so long as the winning platform has software support and the sales are large enough to bring the technology into more homes affordably. The way these formats are being marketed right now leaves some doubt in our heads that we are facing another uphill battle that may NOT get the momentum in the industy everyone is hoping for.

 

[ned]

Haha thats funny. Why would we be biased against a HiDef DVD technology that can improve audio and video quality over normal DVD?

I personally don't care who wins the format war so long as the winning platform has software support and the sales are large enough to bring the technology into more homes affordably. The way these formats are being marketed right now leaves some doubt in our heads that we are facing another uphill battle that may NOT get the momentum in the industy everyone is hoping for.

Well at least you're not declaring its failure this early. Gene, if your site posted 2 negative article without ever looking at the equipment first hand, overlooking good reviews what kind of impression does the site give?

Most post in this thread or the other one are not related to format war but the Hidef technology in general so this is a non-issue. Give it some time and affordability will be a non issue as well. Just like I said give it some time for the market to play out.

I've utmost respect for your site and I hope for a more balance and well thought out article.

 

[ned]

So, please relax.

Have another coffee.

Smoke another cigarette.

Let’s keep it fun.

It's no fun to get sick!

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I spent about a half hour playing around with the new BD-P1000 Samsung which was hooked up to a 1080p Samsung 40" LCD.

First impressions -

The remote was very small, and felt cheap. The user interface was very cool, and the unit reacted quickly to commands.

The picture was not much better than standard DVD. I tried all their media - they probably had 6 movies and 6 short takes. This was extremely disappointing in a $1000 machine. I kept on thinking "it's got to be the movie, because this isn't even close to ESPN or Discovery HD."

Best buy now has all their flat screens and HD projection sets playing a split screen, showing standard dvd versus HD. My BS meter was hitting on all cylinders, as the standard dvd side was obviously blurred on purpose.

It's been awhile since I've been in BB. It'll be a while before I go back.

 

[Wayde Robson]

It's no fun to get sick!

Lol, I agree Ned.

It's a phrase I stole from a Detroit radio station. The thought of relaxing to stimulants seems like a reflection of our times.

But I mean what I say about Audioholics readers and forum posters being among the most informed out there. That's why I take comments seriously.

To be honest I hesitated to comment on the hi-def formats because I've seen a lot of "over-cafinated" responses over at the AVSforum about it. It has become a politically charged issue.

Perhaps that’s because by now people have spent their own money on one or the other format so they feel a bond with it. But you should not. In two years you’ll be able to replace either the BD-P1000 or HD-A1 for probably half the cost and the newer version will have more features. Take the cost / technology cycle of DVD and speed it up a notch – released in ’97, players broke the <$200 by 2000.

It only took DVD three years to become a budget mainstream technology. Your guess is as good as mine how non-unified formats will affect this scenario. I am hoping LG or Samsung can eventually make good on their promise to release a unified player. Then I’ll seriously think about buying one when good movies come out on it. Sorry, Triple X and Tom Cruise - Dances with Samurai isn’t good enough.

About MPEG2. There are many dynamics at play. Mpeg2 will work well in the hands of a true artist (or studio that wants to make something really special). So, sure a BD demo is going to look awesome because they took the time.

But the 10 year + old codec has an upper decompression limit that has been exceeded by newer/faster formats.

I am no video engineer, but most movies are going to get indifferent treatment in the back-end. A mediocre release of (insert non-blockbuster title) probably won’t get the care of a demo disk. Hence, I believe that production will benefit from newer utilities like a modern codec.

So, no I don’t believe a modern codec will help Leonardo DaVinci paint a better masterpiece. The purpose of better software is to help the majority look more like Leonardo.

 

[ironlung]

Thanks for putting the pants on them Ned!

We can argue again and again. This editorial is no diferrent than the first. Reporting base on second hand information, incorrect information and lack of understanding of the technology in general.

I still don't understand why such a repected website keep posting unfactual and misleading article. There are articles with positive reviews but they have never been mentioned.

So we can say that both players have no problems and are completely ready for primetime. Is that what your claiming?

 

[gene]

Well at least you're not declaring its failure this early. Gene, if your site posted 2 negative article without ever looking at the equipment first hand, overlooking good reviews what kind of impression does the site give?

Most of the positive reviews we've seen have been sugar coated and lacked any real criticism. They read more like blogs or press releases.

If you recall when DVD-A / SACD made its introduction, we were pretty hard on that as well with the articles I authored called:

DVD-A & SACD - The Royal Scam (Steely Dan reference)

As a result, many of the issues we discussed were addressed, especially since we and other noted publications worked very closely with manufacturers regarding bass management issues, logistics, etc.

However, the industry never addressed the software (or lack thereof) and compatability problems and we all know the resultant lack of success of these formats as a result.

Meanwhile we still enjoy both formats but they are still and likely always will be niche market items.

 

[ironlung]

Funniest Post Ever!!!!!

I think the 'positive' reviews are almost as bad as the negative ones quite often. It is just WAY to early to make almost anything but 'first impression' statements. Which should be clearly titled FIRST IMPRESSION - MEANS NOTHING. HD-DVD doesn't have the backing it needs (yet), Blu-ray isn't using the technology it should be using (yet) and both are brand new... and realistically both are overpriced for the masses.

I would want to see the numbers AFTER this holiday season before I would be willing to even contemplate make a serious statement about the format war. Everything until then is just pure speculation. Format shot in foot? No. Blu-ray lousy? No. HD-DVD to buggy? No. PS3 meaningless? No. It just is a bunch of unknowns.

ROFL..... MAYBE NEXT YEAR!!!!!!!!

 

[BMXTRIX]

So we can say that both players have no problems and are completely ready for primetime. Is that what your claiming?

I don't think that is the claim at all - to make that type of claim they would need to do REVIEWS and find the products to be faultless.

The issue is that of the two most recent HD disc articles - one gave a list of 10 reasons why the formats are already doomed and the other focussed heavily on the current downsides/issues with the formats.

Very few are writing about what both formats bring to the table. The Toshiba has built in Ethernet that they have already been using for firmware upgrades - a very good feature that even when other products have had it, is often not used! The movies on the Toshiba also are getting solid reviews for quality and the player itself is an obvious bargain.

Blu-ray has a very weak first offerring from Samsung. I don't think this is a huge suprise as Samsung is not a company I would consider top notch for transport decks. But, all reviews indicate that the player CAN output solid material if it is encoded correctly and the best connection to use is component video, not HDMI.

YET: Bottom line... JUST LIKE DVD - These are the very first players ever released in a brand new format! They aren't well established bugs worked out products. They should not be held as an example of what HD discs are forever to be. The advertising and marketing we are seeing right now is a joke... But, in the early Summer months, who the HECK cares about buying A/V gear except us? Most people are waiting for the holidays. So, that's when we will see a real 'kickoff' for the technology.

It just seems that many of the points and articles written are very doom and gloom instead of realizing and STATING that we are likely to see much more of an official rollout, advertisement, displays, better discs, top tier movies, etc. as Thanksgiving and this holiday season roll around.

My mentality has remained the same: HD-DVD simply does not have the industry support it needs to win right now. Blu-ray does. The Samsung is not the best, but other players will be out - WAIT TO BUY. PS3 will be a HUGE player in this format war and may decide things rather quickly if it performs 'average' as a HD player. Prices will fall, quality will improve, and it may, or may not, ever replace DVD. But, when CDs came out you could ONLY buy them in specialty stores and only a few select stores were even selling CD players. They were not 'poised' to replace cassette or vinyl, yet it did occur. Likewise with DVD. It won't happen overnight and it likely will take a couple of years for anyone to really know how well it will do.

Keep in mind - VHS tapes of movies are still readily available. So DVD didn't replace VHS, it just does a lot better.