Status
Not open for further replies.
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
There is just no snake oil and rigging here for many reasons…

First of all it doesn't work: These guys would be out of business in a month, if they sell something that does not work at home, word would get out quick and there would be no more sales.

Also the sale is not done before it is installed at home: Most guys here don't sell products but go home and make sure that what they do in shop is repeated at home where rigging and faking is impossible.
Seems like you have lots more bandits in US than here?????

My experience is that digital playback systems have a long way to go and …. I don't recall once listening to music through a streamer where I was 100% convinced it is genuine, there are just too many audible flaws with a digital playback chain from a streamer…. The grand piano is not really genuinely like a piano, artifacts in voices that should not be there and some symthetic artifacts that can be just plain annoying.

Without exception, the best music I heard was always through CD players and Vinyl, a CD player shpuld not be better than a streamer but somehow my best experiences have always been with physical media...

Theoretically doing cleanups in the digital domain should not make a difference, but what if it does and what if it can be proved with blind testing?

I am after the same as you guys… I just want good music and I don't want to break the bank in that process; I am doing my best to get there without throwing money out the window. If you look at my profile I believe you will see no snake oil products anywhere. I am very serious about what I do and if I do hear an audible difference with things I want to find out and see how I can apply this at home J

I also tried wool socks but I can't hear any audible difference
I did not mean to imply in the least that you are prone to buying snake oil products. Rather that the salesman may have involved "snake-oil style trickery" by getting the sound to improve through something that is going on which you cannot see.
Generally, if I (as the salesman) can convince a customer that something sounds better in my shop, that customer will believe it is an improvement in their home. If they don't perceive as dramatic of a difference at home, they might think their system (or room) is not so revealing of the improvement as the gear in the shop (which is often high end). We are, indeed prone to expectation bias - I know I am!
I guess the thing that makes me suspicious is that you walked into the shop and listened to the set up and it sounded decidedly bad! Why is that? What audio store prominently displays gear that would make you want to stop listening to it? What is it about their products in that system that gave it a bad sound until these four maintenance steps were performed? And, if each of the four steps provided clear improvement, we would expect the aggregate of the 4 steps to be huge!
As you described it, I gather that the gear in their shop sounded noticeably worse than your system at home (ever) does! You would assume that they must have used these devices within the last few days since the owner presented it as one of the steps in preparing for a demonstration. However, if you have never used these devices, why doesn't your system at home sound like total crap?
Because this type of decay of sound quality is so foreign to my experience, I am suspicious that they deliberately compromised the sound quality so they could make incremental improvements which they could present as being associated with the anti-stat, demagnetizer, etc.
There is nothing like step-wise making bad sound into good sound quality to lead a person to believe they are hearing especially great sound!

I do believe the USA is more conducive to greed and deceit (for money) than many countries, but unless you can prove to me there are no sales of AudioQuest Cables in your country, I am slow to believe there is no room for deceit among businesses in your country!
 
Last edited:
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I did not mean to imply in the least that you are prone to buying snake oil products. Rather that the salesman may have involved "snake-oil style trickery" by getting the sound to improve through something that is going on which you cannot see.
Generally, if I (as the salesman) can convince a customer that something sounds better in my shop, that customer will believe it is an improvement in their home. If they don't perceive as dramatic of a difference at home, they might think their system (or room) is not be so revealing of the improvement as the gear in the shop (which is often high end). We are, indeed prone to expectation bias - I know I am!
I guess the thing that makes me suspicious is that you walked into the shop and listened to the set up and it sounded decidedly bad! Why is that? What audio store prominently displays gear that would make you want to stop listening to it? What is it about their products in that system that gave it a bad sound until these four maintenance steps were performed? And, if each of the four steps provided clear improvement, we would expect the aggregate of the 4 steps to be huge!
As you described it, I gather that the gear in their shop sounded noticeably worse than your system at home (ever) does! You would assume taht they must have used these devices within the last few days since the owner presented it as one of the steps in preparing for a demonstration. However, if you have never used these devices, why doesn't your system at home sound like total crap?
Because this type of decay of sound quality is so foreign to my experience, I am suspicious that they deliberately compromised the sound quality so they could make incremental improvements which they could present as being associated with the antistat, demagnetizer, etc.
There is nothing like make a bad sound good to make a person believe they are hearing especially great sound!

I do believe the USA is more conducive to greed and deciet (for money) than many countries, but unless you can prove to me there are no sales of AudioQuest Cables in your country, I am slow to believe there is no room for deceit among businesses in your country!
Well they apparently sell Nordost so that's clear they sell snake oil already....
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Spartan
I did not mean to imply in the least that you are prone to buying snake oil products. Rather that the salesman may have involved "snake-oil style trickery" by getting the sound to improve through something that is going on which you cannot see.
Generally, if I (as the salesman) can convince a customer that something sounds better in my shop, that customer will believe it is an improvement in their home. If they don't perceive as dramatic of a difference at home, they might think their system (or room) is not be so revealing of the improvement as the gear in the shop (which is often high end). We are, indeed prone to expectation bias - I know I am!
I guess the thing that makes me suspicious is that you walked into the shop and listened to the set up and it sounded decidedly bad! Why is that? What audio store prominently displays gear that would make you want to stop listening to it? What is it about their products in that system that gave it a bad sound until these four maintenance steps were performed? And, if each of the four steps provided clear improvement, we would expect the aggregate of the 4 steps to be huge!
As you described it, I gather that the gear in their shop sounded noticeably worse than your system at home (ever) does! You would assume taht they must have used these devices within the last few days since the owner presented it as one of the steps in preparing for a demonstration. However, if you have never used these devices, why doesn't your system at home sound like total crap?
Because this type of decay of sound quality is so foreign to my experience, I am suspicious that they deliberately compromised the sound quality so they could make incremental improvements which they could present as being associated with the antistat, demagnetizer, etc.
There is nothing like step-wise making bad sound into good sound quality to lead a person to believe they are hearing especially great sound!

I do believe the USA is more conducive to greed and deciet (for money) than many countries, but unless you can prove to me there are no sales of AudioQuest Cables in your country, I am slow to believe there is no room for deceit among businesses in your country!
Well they apparently sell Nordost so that's clear they sell snake oil already....
Thx for your long replies, appreciate it :)

The antistatic spray is Nordost ..... I have repratedly been looking for tech papers on why there is any difference, but found zero...

Honest, I am very skeptical to Nordost!!!!, but there is a difference here ....

On the matter of Furutech demagnetizer it is said to be whitepapers showing measurable difference, I am requesting this from Furutech to see what they can provide ...

Kurt.. I will get back to you on the other post :)
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Spartan
[
My problem isn't with Hegel in this instance, it is with the Darko guy. He says that there is a glare in streaming devices that isn't there with a CD player. That would be easily identifiable with a spectral comparison. Naturally, he can't be troubled to do something so simple to back up his claims, so we are left with his vague description that is overwhelmingly likely to be a product of him imagination anyway. Don't take his claims seriously.
Hegel is a seriously engineering driven company, as previously stated I will see if I can get to them and meet up with Bent Holter for him to explain :)

I work next door to Hegel :)
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Look at video, less is more !

Hegel improves sound quality of CD player by removing streaming and digital inputs. Clear indication that what you do with digital functionality affect audible sound quality.

And this is from a company that gets rave reviews on everything they do. And they do have the engineering background to support it.
But you don't know if Hegel or some other gear manufacturers pay the reviewers to write rave reviews. This has happened and I'm sure it still does.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Spartan
But you don't know if Hegel or some other gear manufacturers pay the reviewers to write rave reviews. This has happened and I'm sure it still does.
I don’t trust any reviewers, but read and use ase background material....
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
[
Hegel is a seriously engineering driven company, as previously stated I will see if I can get to them and meet up with Bent Holter for him to explain :)

I work next door to Hegel :)
Yeah, and so is PS Audio. You’ve always struck me as a level-headed person, until this thread.

This feels like you’re desperately trying to support a point you wish you hadn’t made in the first place.
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
His claims would theoretically have a measurable difference, but, of course, he couldn't be bothered to actually measure them, as that would require a modicum of effort, or he wasn't seriously interested in the truth of his claims. Either way, terrible audio journalism.
I tried to find his background. I found a link to his bio - and it contained nothing but a long essay on different bands and albums he has loved over the years, followed by a long essay on different audio gear he has listened to and/or owned.

Interesting way to write a bio...
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
I just read on another forum that Hegel gear is made in China, and that they are very secretive about this (to the point of being downright misleading about it).

I know very little about Hegel or the gear they make. Is there truth to what I read?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I just read on another forum that Hegel gear is made in China, and that they are very secretive about this (to the point of being downright misleading about it).

I know very little about Hegel or the gear they make. Is there truth to what I read?
I do see this in the about section which makes me scratch my head a bit "Fighting distortion usually meant the deterioration of other parameters, including damping factor."

Searching for back panel images they seem to simply show Hegel, Oslo, Norway (no actual made in or assembled in language), so assume they're at least declaring on importation into the US that it is of Norwegian origin with such markings (altho if imported from Norway rather than China they may not be questioned much on this point either). I do see some internet chat about China origins in a forum or two but nothing too conclusive.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Searching for back panel images they seem to simply show Hegel, Oslo, Norway (no actual made in or assembled in language), so assume they're at least declaring on importation into the US that it is of Norwegian origin with such markings (altho if imported from Norway rather than China they may not be questioned much on this point either). I do see some internet chat about China origins in a forum or two but nothing too conclusive.
If their products are made or assembled in China, with the prices that they are selling them at, they would make a lot of profit on the back of the consumer, who would then be a "Victim" of diminishing returns as is the case with most expensive stuff.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If their products are made or assembled in China, with the prices that they are selling them at, they would make a lot of profit on the back of the consumer, who would then be a "Victim" of diminishing returns as is the case with most expensive stuff.
True, but there's really no evidence of that happening in this case. It can happen, though (based on my years as a US Customs broker). Maybe Haraldo will get a factory tour to see all the products assembly lines....
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
I just did a quick Google search of "Hegel made in China." Results included several Audiogon forum posts and even a link to this Darko fellow with a statement that they are developed in Norway but made in China.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I just did a quick Google search of "Hegel made in China." Results included several Audiogon forum posts and even a link to this Darko fellow with a statement that they are developed in Norway but made in China.
Not much to go on...
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
Funny enough, the most definitive statement I see comes from Darko:

"What I didn’t know before arriving at Hegel’s HQ is that they produce nothing but prototypes here. Manufacturing takes place in China, leaving the Norway HQ for product development, circuit design, parts sourcing, testing, repairs and software coding. "

https://darko.audio/2018/03/hit-the-north-a-visit-to-hegels-headquarters/

For what it's worth, I don't care where they're made. I do find it a bit misleading they way the put Oslo Norway on the back of their gear, with no mention of it being made in China.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Funny enough, the most definitive statement I see comes from Darko:

"What I didn’t know before arriving at Hegel’s HQ is that they produce nothing but prototypes here. Manufacturing takes place in China, leaving the Norway HQ for product development, circuit design, parts sourcing, testing, repairs and software coding. "

https://darko.audio/2018/03/hit-the-north-a-visit-to-hegels-headquarters/

For what it's worth, I don't care where they're made. I do find it a bit misleading they way the put Oslo Norway on the back of their gear, with no mention of it being made in China.
Illegally marked for importation into the US if so....
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
Go after them!

Where's Chu Gai when we need him? Wasn't he good at going after companies that were doing such things?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Go after them!

Where's Chu Gai when we need him? Wasn't he good at going after companies that were doing such things?
Darko may or may not be right....but maybe they do declare them as origin China, too and haven't been caught on the marking issue. Anyway, am retired but does sound familiar that Chu did do stuff like that....
 
Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
I have never trusted the Hegel company. And that hurts to say that since I'm Scandinavian. Uff da.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Spartan
Yeah, and so is PS Audio. You’ve always struck me as a level-headed person, until this thread.

This feels like you’re desperately trying to support a point you wish you hadn’t made in the first place.
Nothing wrong with PS Audio, is there?

If it looks like I am trying to stick to a certain point that’s not the purpose....
I want to get to the bottom of this, if my initial point is right or wrong .... doesn’t matter, but I am incredibly stubborn :D

I want the truth :)

So I directly contacted Furutech and Nordost to get tech papers supporting the claims of the performance of the demagnetizer and the antistatic spray. Let’s see what they can come up with :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top