Bits are not bits

[haraldo]

I have no idea what is going on here but it's proven to me beyond any doubt that bits are not bits.

So I went to this hi-end shop just to listen to the new Audio Physic Virgo III loudspeakers, which have received so much acclaim. It was set up with a Burmester 069 CD player, Burmester 088 pre amplifier and a Burmester 956 power amplifier. It did not sound well at all to me and there was a lack of life and dynamics and it really was dull sounding andf I couldn't even listen through a song.

So then comes owner of shop in and say that I need to warn him in advance because it takes time to prepare for a demo, so what he did in this consecutive order is as follows:

1. Anti-static treatment for CD's with Nordost Eco3x antistat spray
2. Demagnetizing the CD with a Furutech destat III fan
3. Cleaning the laser on the CD player with a special CD that contains a special brush fot this purpose
4. Playing some xtremely weird sound very loud, so that we had to leave the room while this was going on and then Demagnetizing tweeter with the Furutech destat III fan

Between each of step 1 to 4 above I listened to Kate Bush, An architect's dream and between each of the steps I heard a very clear audible difference and so would probably all of you.

All of this sounds like proper woodoo, with the difference that you must be completely 100% deaf and dump not to hear the difference. All of these sound like snake oil, but the thing is that this comes at a cost of just a few hundred dollars and difference is to me shocking. Here was no tricks and no set-ups, I followed evcerything closely as it was going on.

There is of course a scientific explanation to all of this, because it works. Bofore and after is two completely different systems.

Do not ask me what this is and why demagnetizing and anti static treatment of CD's works but it plays a very clear difference. Can anyone explain how this is happening?

And please don't tell me it's somehing I am imagining to myself

 

[haraldo]

you may all think this is a joke or me trolling, absolutely not, this is very audible and everyone of you here would easily hear the difference in this case

 

[Irvrobinson]

You're not going to want to hear this, but the scientific explanation is that it's either a scam (the dealer was doing hidden post CD processing) or it's all in your head. There isn't any way that any of the procedures you describe alter the bit stream from the transport in a way to euphonically affect the analog output.

 

[haraldo]

You're not going to want to hear this, but the scientific explanation is that it's either a scam (the dealer was doing hidden post CD processing) or it's all in your head. There isn't any way that any of the procedures you describe alter the bit stream from the transport in a way to euphonically affect the analog output.

It doesn't matter if I like it or not.... I have a very long training in listening, auditioning for 30+ years and I know very well what I hear.... I know that there is a very cheap way of getting more out of the digital rig....

Science is to see if what you exerience complies with the scientific models. If what you experience does not comply with the scientific models, there must be something wrong with the models. I am sure this is something that can be easily repeated for any skeptical of you that should be in Oslo.

In this case there is a difference and a scientific explanation, I think it would be much better to look for what the heck is happening rather than using "troll" and scam "words".

100% guaranted no tricks or no scam, you doubt my intellect by posting things like this

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

At this point, Haraldo is simply trolling us. Intentionally or not.
Did the shop owner use pure silver cables in the demo? How about cable risers and resonance reducing stones?
So, what we have either your sound memory is not as good as you think, or you're not nearly unbiased as you think on expecting different result even if all was done is pure placebo.

 

[haraldo]

At this point, Haralda is simply trolling us. Intentionally or not.
Did the shop owner use pure silver cables in the demo? How about cable risers and resonance reducing stones?
So, what we have either your sound memory is not as good as you think, or you're not nearly unbiased as you think on expecting different result even if all was done is pure placebo.

Who is Haralda?

Contrary to a Troll I am using my ears, which I have done in a very long time.... when I hear a clear difference, there is a difference.... what am I missing here, if a 40$ tweak makes the world of a difference, where is the problem?

Actually I did not expect any much results but was proven wrong....

I am sorry, if I completely misunderstood Audioholics, I actually believed the purpose was to help us get the most out of our systems .....

 

[highfigh]

Who is Haralda?

Contrary to a Troll I am using my ears, which I have done in a very long time.... when I hear a clear difference, there is a difference.... what am I missing here, if a 40$ tweak makes the world of a difference, where is the problem?

I am sorry, if I completely misunderstood Audioholics, I actually believed the purpose was to help us get the most out of our systems .....

Is the store owner willing to use this at your place, to see if it makes a difference on a system he doesn't know?

 

[Irvrobinson]

It doesn't matter if I like it or not.... I have a very long training in listening, auditioning for 30+ years and I know very well what I hear.... I know that there is a very cheap way of getting more out of the digital rig....

Science is to see if what you exerience complies with the scientific models. If what you experience does not comply with the scientific models, there must be something wrong with the models. I am sure this is something that can be easily repeated for any skeptical of you that should be in Oslo.

In this case there is a difference and a scientific explanation, I think it would be much better to look for what the heck is happening rather than using "troll" and scam "words".

100% guaranted no tricks or no scam, you doubt my intellect by posting things like this

Let's think about this. CD data for audio contains nothing more than samples, with a separate stream per channel, and each sample includes a 16 bit data word for amplitude. You can add more samples (actually, DACs do this with a technique called oversampling) or you could change the amplitude data in the samples. There's nothing else to change. Even if you alter the mechanical rotation of the disc or the movement of the laser, the data is buffered in RAM before the DAC process gets it, so there isn't a connection between the bit gathering and the conversion to analog. And even if somehow the bit stream was altered, how is it altered in a euphonic way? The almost certain way the alteration would appear is as distortion.

As for the scam, if the volume control was altered even slightly between steps you would probably like it better.

 

[shadyJ]

Science is to see if what you exerience complies with the scientific models. If what you experience does not comply with the scientific models, there must be something wrong with the models. I am sure this is something that can be easily repeated for any skeptical of you that should be in Oslo.

That is not an accurate description of science. It's more of a general statement on empiricism. Science is testing a hypothesis using measurements. In this case, the measurement tool you used, your ears, are invalid. What you have is an anecdotal experience. You can't trust your own experience, you have to have it confirmed by some objective metric. After all, how do you you you weren't hallucinating?

One possible explanation of your experience when when your dealer blasted the system with that weird sound before you went into the room. That would have caused the voice coils to heat up and change the electrical parameters of the drivers. If you heat them up, it causes them to lose magnetic power, and that definitely would change the sound. I doubt that is the case here though, since you imply that the sound was louder afterward. The store owner is tricking you, or the difference is in your imagination. What you experienced did not occur in a controlled condition, it was performed by someone who had a vested interest in steering the outcome of the situation.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Hello haraldo, I haven't talked to you in a while. How are you? How are things in Norway? I hope everything is well.

Sighted evaluations in audio produce these experiences. Do research on 'cognitive bias' in the brain. We all have it and it influences the outcome of listening tests.

 

[haraldo]

Is the store owner willing to use this at your place, to see if it makes a difference on a system he doesn't know?

I don't know... first of all this guy is a seller and makes a living out of selling his own equipment, but it so happens these guys quite often come home to people and do these things at home on people's own equipment, so there is a situation before and after. In that situation you can remove the "scam" and "tricks" part.

At the moment they would not be able to do this at my home as I don't have a functioning CD player, but I am working to get my legacy Denon DCD 2560 up and going again.

It would cost me next to nothing to try at home, to see, what happens at home.

I am really interested to see, is there anything we are missing here and if there is a very simple and cheap way to get further in the music pleasure?

Further down the road, I am sure I would be able to borrow a demagnetizer to see what happens...

There is something very funny going on here and I am not imagining this....

 

[haraldo]

Thanks for all the replies suggesting that I am a nutcase and imagining myself all these weird things, that's not the case though.... I have been told by several professionals that I have extremely good hearing and can point out with accuracy even extremely minor things with high accuracy.

In this case, we ended up playing at the exact same volumes, and it's very clear that all these things do something in a positive way

Hello haraldo, I haven't talked to you in a while. How are you? How are things in Norway? I hope everything is well.

Sighted evaluations in audio produce these experiences. Do research on 'cognitive bias' in the brain. We all have it and it influences the outcome of listening tests.

I am doing exceedingly well, enjoying life in the new flat, life is smiling and I am enjoying life and music more than in a long time

I have a very long experience in auditioning audio gear and also learned myself to hear through defects and understand what is right and wrong, and as for the sighted part, I believe myself to be pretty objective.....

Buit I caught myself thinking that a system is better than it is... by looking at price tag and that... it should be good, but at the end of the day you realize it's not; yes I know, it's hard

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Your tests at home will be the same. You will probably 'hear a difference' because you are including your eyes in the testing procedure.

And glad to hear you are doing well. Someday I hope to visit Norway.

 

[haraldo]

That is not an accurate description of science. It's more of a general statement on empiricism. Science is testing a hypothesis using measurements. In this case, the measurement tool you used, your ears, are invalid. What you have is an anecdotal experience. You can't trust your own experience, you have to have it confirmed by some objective metric. After all, how do you you you weren't hallucinating?

One possible explanation of your experience when when your dealer blasted the system with that weird sound before you went into the room. That would have caused the voice coils to heat up and change the electrical parameters of the drivers. If you heat them up, it causes them to lose magnetic power, and that definitely would change the sound. I doubt that is the case here though, since you imply that the sound was louder afterward. The store owner is tricking you, or the difference is in your imagination. What you experienced did not occur in a controlled condition, it was performed by someone who had a vested interest in steering the outcome of the situation.

So what if we don't have any metrics to accurately measure and describe what is happening?

EDIT: I have heard about other kinds of tweaks that there may be something happening with the timing that actually results in the analog signal being changed audibly, same bits but timing is different to an extent that it becomes audible.... maybe that has no relevance in this case.... I have no idea

 

[Irvrobinson]

So what if we don't have any metrics to accurately measure and describe what is happening?

We absolutely have metrics. Either the bit stream from the CD is identical or it isn't. (And there is nothing that cleaning or de-magnetizing a CD or the laser mechanism can do to alter the bit stream in a euphonic way.) Any other means of affecting CD sound from instance to instance on the same equipment is invalid.

You actually have a lot of company in your non-scientific beliefs that hearing differences trumps scientific or engineering facts. There are tens of thousands of readers in the US alone of magazines like The Absolute Sound, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, various audiophile web sites, and the companies that make the products that claim to have audible differences (like cables) that couldn't possibly.

 

[shadyJ]

So what if we don't have any metrics to accurately measure and describe what is happening?

EDIT: I have heard about other kinds of tweaks that there may be something happening with the timing that actually results in the analog signal being changed audibly, same bits but timing is different to an extent that it becomes audible.... maybe that has no relevance in this case.... I have no idea

No offense, but your experience doesn't warrant the hypothesis that the phenomena is escaping our current understanding of acoustics or signal processing theory. If you can reproduce your experience in blind testing above statistical chance in a controlled situation, and it is not explainable by current scientific models, than yes, let's look at alternative models, but you are a loooong way from that, given your single personal experience.

 

[haraldo]

I know this is extremely difficult but in this case difference is so significant that I am not willing to suggest it onto placebo effect....

Going from a system that I disliked and I decided I don’t like unto something very nice, quite significant.... (but I will never get any of that system still)

And furthermore, some of these are $40 products. I think though its clearly accepted today that there are things we can hear that we can’t reliably measure

 

[haraldo]

We absolutely have metrics. Either the bit stream from the CD is identical or it isn't. (And there is nothing that cleaning or de-magnetizing a CD or the laser mechanism can do to alter the bit stream in a euphonic way.) Any other means of affecting CD sound from instance to instance on the same equipment is invalid.

You actually have a lot of company in your non-scientific beliefs that hearing differences trumps scientific or engineering facts. There are tens of thousands of readers in the US alone of magazines like The Absolute Sound, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, various audiophile web sites, and the companies that make the products that claim to have audible differences (like cables) that couldn't possibly.

I don’t suggest hearing trump scientific facts, merely sometimes there are things we can hear that is not easily explained, maybe we sometimes need better meteics.... I have no idea

 

[Irvrobinson]

I think though its clearly accepted today that there are things we can hear that we can’t reliably measure

I disagree, at least when it comes to electronics and digital audio. In fact, the opposite is true; we can measure differences that are not audible. There are questions sometimes about whether measured differences are audible, and other questions about whether DBT and ABX testing are sufficiently resolving with humans to determine audibility, but measuring equipment is a lot better than our ear-brain systems.

 

[haraldo]

Your tests at home will be the same. You will probably 'hear a difference' because you are including your eyes in the testing procedure.

And glad to hear you are doing well. Someday I hope to visit Norway.

You may be right, or you may be wrong...
I have a very hard time to tell differences in jy own system while I can easily point out issues in dealer's systems....
At hime I am in a different mood, I just enjoy the music... I don't look for whatæs wrong but what's right which is what I think we should do

That means I just love it and enjoy the music

if You're in Bergen you'd better come for a visit