Bi-amping - Is Paradigm selling snake-oil??

[JerryLove]

But I still have a question.
If I have 2 speakers, each with one driver in it, and I power them with a 2 channel amp, lets say a 100 wpc and I get a certain sound level, before clipping. Then, what if I add another setup exactly like this. Same speakers and amp, is it going to be louder before clipping? If it is louder, is it because of more speakers or more power?

So the following?

A) You are running two speakers (L and R) off a 2x125W power amp.
B) You are running two speakers with 4 drivers (LH, LL, RH, RL) off 2x2x125W power amps.

The qeustion is "will B be louder than A". The answer is "probably, but not by the full 3db you would expect".

Let's start with the best result... the theory that that drivers are all demanding equal power. In that case, you've doubled your power, and you've added 3db to your max volume.

In reality: it's rare that voltage draw is even across the Frequency spectrum (we call the result "pink noise").

In the end, my problem with B is that A (who wants more power) should have sold amp #1, added the money set aside for amp #2 and baught a single more powerful amp.

 

[96cobra10101]

So the following?

A) You are running two speakers (L and R) off a 2x125W power amp.
B) You are running two speakers with 4 drivers (LH, LL, RH, RL) off 2x2x125W power amps.

The qeustion is "will B be louder than A". The answer is "probably, but not by the full 3db you would expect".

Let's start with the best result... the theory that that drivers are all demanding equal power. In that case, you've doubled your power, and you've added 3db to your max volume.

In reality: it's rare that voltage draw is even across the Frequency spectrum (we call the result "pink noise").

In the end, my problem with B is that A (who wants more power) should have sold amp #1, added the money set aside for amp #2 and baught a single more powerful amp.

I get the part that it won't be double the sound level, but I can see it being louder due to more speakers. If 100 watts is making 95db on one speaker, its going to take 100 watts to make 95 db on each other added speaker. But what makes it louder? Is it the multiplied amount of sound coming from more speaker surface area of the multiple speakers? Also, in speaker set up where you have a tweeter/sub with a passive crossover, do you have a loss of power, or is the lower frequencies direct to the sub. If I biamp a speaker, the crossover (am I using the right term, maybe capacitor) will block the lows from the tweeter, so is that lost power? Also, if the woofer is receiving the full range, are the higher frequencies lost or wasted power due the woofer not producing the higher frquencies?
As for buying a new amp, dude, I just bought the UPA-7 a month ago, and I don't think I would recoup the funds for it enough to justify selling it. hindsight is 20/20.

 

[96cobra10101]

Ibtl .

Why would this be locked?

 

[JerryLove]

I get the part that it won't be double the sound level, but I can see it being louder due to more speakers.

Your best case is 3db

Realistically: I don't expect it will do you any harm, and I don't expect that it will offer any improvement that will be noticeable. If you want to try it out: go for it. It costs you nothing to try and, if you like the result, that's all that matters.

 

[96cobra10101]

Your best case is 3db

Realistically: I don't expect it will do you any harm, and I don't expect that it will offer any improvement that will be noticeable. If you want to try it out: go for it. It costs you nothing to try and, if you like the result, that's all that matters.

Ok. one more question. If I bi-amp, does it change the Ohm load? And if I change that, the amp will push more power ie; going from 8 to 4 ohms? This is all speculation on my part. I don't know what the speakers would be if I removed the jumpers. I know my UPA-7 would go from 125 to 185 watts if the load was 4 ohms on the channel. The speakers I have are 1 tweeter and 2 woofers plus the crossover.

 

[JerryLove]

Not my area of expertise, but I would deduce that it will have no effect on the ohm load. The drivers and crossover should control the ohm load.

Since a given speaker presents several different loads dependant on what sounds it's generating: obviously the individual amps will see only subsets of the whole-speaker superset... but I don't expect any affect on sound or amp reliability.

Still. One of the DIY-ers would be able to answer with more certainty that I can.

 

[AJinFLA]

Ok. one more question. If I bi-amp, does it change the Ohm load?

Already explained if you read all my posts in this thread:

Each would see a different reactive load, in typical speakers, the woofer leg will have a lower impedance than the tweeter (not always), so it's entirely possible to clip a peak waveform on the woofer channel while not on the tweeter....unlike when a single channel drives the voltage divider.

Each channel does see a different load.

And if I change that, the amp will push more power ie; going from 8 to 4 ohms?

Yes, but its a voltage source, power across the load increases, but your woofer leg impedance will not change because you separate it from the tweeter. Again, for the last time, it's not so much the marginal increase in power, but the separation of clipping spectral components when driven hard (and a possible reduction in IM distortion due to the current loading on the output stage).
The bottom line is that passive (or vertical) bi-amping does make a difference, but it should only be noticeable when you drive your speakers hard. It is clearly worthwhile if you have extra unused amp channels.
As you can see, now that Jerry has used Google Search, he realizes this also.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=663628&postcount=8


cheers,

AJ

p.s. btw Cobra, the "clock radio" thing was this. Classic Jerry

 

[bandphan]

Again, what speakers are we know talking about bi amping?

 

[AJinFLA]

Again, what speakers are we know talking about bi amping?

Bi-amping - Is Paradigm selling snake-oil??

Thread title says Paradigm. S2 I believe. However, it appears Kurt's question was in general. Hopefully it has been answered.

 

[bandphan]

Thread title says Paradigm. S2 I believe. However, it appears Kurt's question was in general. Hopefully it has been answered.

I guess I was asking about Cobra's

I guess where Im going with this is, not many speakers crossovers are truly designed for bi/tri amping. Removing the jumpers doesn't create a separate crossover network for the drivers but sees it wholly as one as with the jumpers using the same filters

 

[AJinFLA]

TD SC!!

I guess where Im going with this is, not many speakers crossovers are truly designed for bi/tri amping.

On what basis/evidence do you make such a claim?
If you have more than a pair of binding posts back there....

Removing the jumpers doesn't create a separate crossover network for the drivers but sees it wholly as one as with the jumpers using the same filters

What??
The majority of networks are parallel, not series - though they do exist.

 

[bandphan]

Ill re-state.. most mid-fi, low-fi speakers. As for based on, on the job experience. Most dual terminal based speakers (again see above) do not have separate isolated networks.

 

[AJinFLA]

Ill re-state.. most mid-fi, low-fi speakers.

Meaningless undefined words, so I have no idea what you mean.

As for based on, on the job experience.

Your job entailed opening speakers and examining networks?

Most dual terminal based speakers (again see above) do not have separate isolated networks.

"Isolated" networks??? What were you looking for? Do you know how to actually tell?

TD #2!!

 

[bandphan]

Meaningless undefined words, so I have no idea what you mean.


Your job entailed opening speakers and examining networks?


"Isolated" networks??? What were you looking for? Do you know how to actually tell?

TD #2!!

nope IBTL Ill bow out and let the pros handle this topic

 

[96cobra10101]

Not my area of expertise, but I would deduce that it will have no effect on the ohm load. The drivers and crossover should control the ohm load.

Since a given speaker presents several different loads dependant on what sounds it's generating: obviously the individual amps will see only subsets of the whole-speaker superset... but I don't expect any affect on sound or amp reliability.

Still. One of the DIY-ers would be able to answer with more certainty that I can.

Already explained if you read all my posts in this thread:


Each channel does see a different load.


Yes, but its a voltage source, power across the load increases, but your woofer leg impedance will not change because you separate it from the tweeter. Again, for the last time, it's not so much the marginal increase in power, but the separation of clipping spectral components when driven hard (and a possible reduction in IM distortion due to the current loading on the output stage).
The bottom line is that passive (or vertical) bi-amping does make a difference, but it should only be noticeable when you drive your speakers hard. It is clearly worthwhile if you have extra unused amp channels.
As you can see, now that Jerry has used Google Search, he realizes this also.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=663628&postcount=8


cheers,

AJ

p.s. btw Cobra, the "clock radio" thing was this. Classic Jerry

I was mistaken in what I previously thought then. My thinking was like this.

4 ohm + 4 ohm parallel would = 2 ohm load,
4 ohm + 4 ohm series would = 8 ohm.

I am guessing its only true when the speakers aren't moving.

 

[3db]

I was mistaken in what I previously thought then. My thinking was like this.

4 ohm + 4 ohm parallel would = 2 ohm load,
4 ohm + 4 ohm series would = 8 ohm.

I am guessing its only true when the speakers aren't moving.

That is correct. When the speakers aren't moving, ie. have a signal applie dto them, you are measuring the resistance of the coils in the speaker and the filter.

Passive bi-amping holds no merrit and will not apply more power to a speaker then single point amping becuase the single point source of power is still the AVR. If you want to bi-amp speakers, then use two or more seperate amplifiers.

 

[bandphan]

That is correct. When the speakers aren't moving, ie. have a signal applie dto them, you are measuring the resistance of the coils in the speaker and the filter.

Passive bi-amping holds no merrit and will not apply more power to a speaker then single point amping becuase the single point source of power is still the AVR. If you want to bi-amp speakers, then use two or more seperate amplifiers.

this thread is for pros only Im only posting as to ensure we dont cloud the issue

 

[zieglj01]

nope IBTL Ill bow out and let the pros handle this topic

This type of topic will be debated till the end of the world.

 

[96cobra10101]

That is correct. When the speakers aren't moving, ie. have a signal applie dto them, you are measuring the resistance of the coils in the speaker and the filter.

Passive bi-amping holds no merrit and will not apply more power to a speaker then single point amping becuase the single point source of power is still the AVR. If you want to bi-amp speakers, then use two or more seperate amplifiers.

I have an amp (7 channel) running off a pre. I was also looking to add a second one (5 channel) giving me 9.2 capability for future use when I get moved to a new place. My speakers are bi amp capable, but there have been valid points on why it isn't worth doing. I would like to try it, just to satisfy my own curiosity. My only hold up is getting a measurement to prove, atleast to myself, that it did or did not make an improvement other than my own ears. Whether I do it or not, it won't happen for atleast 2 weeks while I am away in Denver (Blaaaah).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

On page 13, Paradigm says "Passive bi-amping offers a dramatic improvement in clarity, openness, and detail with much better bass solidity and definition."

Did they also say that this will squeeze out the last 1% drop of sound quality potential?

That it will make the speakers sound more chocolatey, silky smooth, and sweet?

I think Paradigm is trying the win the hearts of DefTech.

Next, Paradigm will do away with the +/-3dB frequency response tolerance and quote the S8 towers as having a FR of 20Hz-20kHz.