Best Receiver for Paradigm Reference

[pjripple]

I think that a true comparison involves in-home usage, where you can discover all of the subtleties and features of a piece of equipment. HT_Addict, this isn't meant to discount your comparison, but I think that you can really get a feel for gear when you can sit down on your own couch and use it for a few days. Additionally, the way that shops set up their gear is more for their own convenience than for the component's true performance.

Just a couple of pennies...

Jason

How do you arrange for an in-home demo? I've been looking for serveral months and not once has any sales person offered to let me demo equipment in my home. Just curious... Do you "purchase" the equipment with the understanding that you can return it if it doesn't meet your needs? Is this common? Are most retailers willing to do this? I agree that the way these systems are set up in the shops may not be anything like they would be at home...as a matter of fact, a guy at my local Ultimate Electronics was telling me how poorly their setup was and how that particular receiver would sound much better in my home.

Paul

 

[ht_addict]

How do you arrange for an in-home demo? I've been looking for serveral months and not once has any sales person offered to let me demo equipment in my home. Just curious... Do you "purchase" the equipment with the understanding that you can return it if it doesn't meet your needs? Is this common? Are most retailers willing to do this? I agree that the way these systems are set up in the shops may not be anything like they would be at home...as a matter of fact, a guy at my local Ultimate Electronics was telling me how poorly their setup was and how that particular receiver would sound much better in my home.

Paul

You got it. But you really have too have a good relationship with your dealer. They may give you a demo unit, or a new one with the understanding it must be returned with all the packaging included otherwise you buy it.

 

[newfmp3]

kind of OT, but in my case I could not find a spot locally that had the equipment that I wanted to try. They could not "risk" getting it in for me to try only to have me return it. But, I did some searching and found someone about a days drive away that was willing to let me get it, pay for it of course, and if I didn't like it, switch it for something else within 30 days. They sold NAD, Rotel, Yamaha, and MArantz. While I was initially looking for a Denon I felt that these guys must have something in that model lineup that would satisfy me. So, I took the chance and got the Nad, and now I am waiting for the 4600 to arrive. Which ever suits my needs better, I keep.This is by far the way to go. Getting a receiver home sounds totally different. And in a store your ears tend to get used to what you are sounding and fool you into thinking that is sounds much better then it really does. I like to listen to the equipment being tested, then switch right back to my old one and compare. I find right away you'll notice a difference as I did with my NAD. But, after a week or so of listening to the NAD at home, it started to sound really great until I switched to my old amps again. Your ears do adjust.

 

[Kurt C.]

A rarely mentioned fact in these discussions is that good quality amps sound exactly alike if played at exactly equal volumes within the flat/linear range of their capacity.

WHAT! Exactly alike? Yes, it's a little known but well-established fact.

Before you jump to the conclusion that I'm a moron who knows nothing about amps, take the time to read this "differences between amplifiers".

So, if two amps sound noticibly different, you haven't matched volume levels carefully enough or one of them is being overdriven.

Buy the cheapest well-made amp you can find enough that has enough power to drive your speakers at desired volumes. Forget about whether brand X "sounds" better than brand Y.

 

[jaxvon]

That's all good and well, but unfortunately many amps, especially cheap ones, fail to meet their published specs when tested in a meaningful and accurate way. Secondly, many esoteric amp companies design their amps to have a characteristic sound.

 

[Kurt C.]

That's all good and well, but unfortunately many amps, especially cheap ones, fail to meet their published specs when tested in a meaningful and accurate way. Secondly, many esoteric amp companies design their amps to have a characteristic sound.

True, which is why it is nice to have at least one high-powered, well-built amp on hand for reference when you do comparisons. Once you've carefully matched the the amp under review with the reference (using an SPL) at your desired volume, give them both a listen. If you can hear a difference, the amp under review is being pushed beyond its limits. You need something more powerful. If you can't hear a difference, buy the amp.

--Kurt C., also a U of M alum ('92). Go Blue!

 

[eirepaul]

A rarely mentioned fact in these discussions is that good quality amps sound exactly alike if played at exactly equal volumes within the flat/linear range of their capacity.

WHAT! Exactly alike? Yes, it's a little known but well-established fact.

Before you jump to the conclusion that I'm a moron who knows nothing about amps, take the time to read this "differences between amplifiers".

So, if two amps sound noticibly different, you haven't matched volume levels carefully enough or one of them is being overdriven.

Buy the cheapest well-made amp you can find enough that has enough power to drive your speakers at desired volumes. Forget about whether brand X "sounds" better than brand Y.

Kurt C. - I read the article you linked and I could not agree more. I currently have a 3805 and it is a really nice unit, I have been very happy with it, but I have now added two used ADCOM power amps to run my 5 Paradigm speakers and I am now happier knowing I have substantial power reserves when needed. The 3805 runs the 6th and 7th channels or a second zone. The advantage of power amps is not so much a different/better sound, just more of it when you really need power. You are much less likely to damage speakers with too much power rather than not enough. I have bought used equipment with much confidence on e-bay and Audiogon and have not had a problem. Established brand power amps are relatively indestructible. It's just another option.

 

[newfmp3]

lets not get the term AMP confused with Receiver or Pre Amp. Big difference.

I was a DJ for a good 12 years and had access to many type of different amps, preamps and what not. Most of my experience was from back then and with seperates.

This nonsense that all amps sound the same could not be futher from the truth.

1st off, 1 receiver will sound different from another receiver, if not because of the "Amp" but because of the preamp and processing. That's not to say you won't come across some that sound similar.

2nd, I have had many power amps at home on the same setup/same room/same source, and have done A/B comparisons. there are some amps that sound alike, but I would never make the statement that they all sound the same. If you go to a more powerful amp, your bass hits harder, louder, stronger, cleaner, and your highs will also be cleaned up. Not just at louder volumes either.

Just one Example I went from a TFM15 Carver power amp that just over 100w/channel at 8 ohm to a 1.5T Carver that's up to 600w/side. I had this setup for at least 18mnths. And I will state my life on it, that it sounded bassier and cleaner even at the lowest of volumes. Then I got rid of the 1.5t, and back to the tfm15, and well, it's just not the same. I never once turned the 1.5t up passed volumes that the smaller 15 could do, i never liked it for that, I just liked it's sound. Even the woman was sad to see it go. I realize this is a extreme example with a serious power difference, but I have seen similar results with equal powered amps as well.

one article written by some guy on the net doesn't prove anything...yes I read it. Every Year I try to replace my Carvers with something more up to date, and every year I have passed back what I demo'd. Why do you think that is....because they don't sound as good. But I must be crazy, they can't possible sound different.

I do believe however, that some people simply can't hear a difference.

 

[eirepaul]

I have also found that a much more powerful amplifier sounds a little cleaner and a little more detailed at lower levels. I think the point is that two different 200 w/ch amps, perfectly matched for comparison in all aspects, would sound very similar or have miniscule differences. Any major differences would likely be imagined.

 

[PENG]

This amps sound the same argument will never end!

Before I bought my 3805 I did check out the Yamaha 2400, Harman Kardon 630, 7200, NADTXXX(forgot the number but was a 6.1 model), Arcam AVR300 and others, including an Anthem prepro/amp separate system. No, I didn't hear those "huge" difference others was able to hear.

I have compared the 3805 with my separates (Adcom/Bryston), and the 3805 still sounds good enough, but I prefer to hook up the Adcom to it just to take so load off the receiver. So it could be true that some people (e.g. me)just cannot hear those differences that exist. To me it does sound (or feel) better with the amp, just that its not very obvious. While I may not be able to hear those "huge" difference between amps/receivers, I could hear differences between similarly priced speakers easily. That's why I am now saving up for the B&W Nautilus D series speakers, instead of spending more money on receivers/amps.

Back to the original post, I would go with the Arcam AVR300. To me, it has a very similar sound to the 3805. If you want brute all channel driven power, take the NAD.

 

[eirepaul]

The other reason I am using separate power amps with my 3805 is because (as many here already know) the 3805 puts out about 75w/ch with all channels driven, where as I am getting a full 200w/ch all driven with the separates. That does make a difference in dynamics and with my Paradigm speakers, as I like to listen at loud levels in a large room. Each listener's situation is different. The 3805 has adequate power for a lot of situations, but not for mine. I love the front end processing features of the 3805.

 

[pjripple]

The other reason I am using separate power amps with my 3805 is because (as many here already know) the 3805 puts out about 75w/ch with all channels driven, where as I am getting a full 200w/ch all driven with the separates. That does make a difference in dynamics and with my Paradigm speakers, as I like to listen at loud levels in a large room. Each listener's situation is different. The 3805 has adequate power for a lot of situations, but not for mine. I love the front end processing features of the 3805.

How does the 3805 (or other a/v receiver) when used as a pre/pro compare to a true separate processor? Is there really a difference in processing between an a/v receiver and a separate? I am leaning toward going with an external amp (200w per channel) because the majority of users seem to report that the Studio 100's perform better with more power than an a/v reciever can deliver, but I'm not sure if I should use something like the 3805 as a pre/pro or go with something like the Rotel 1068. The only difference that I can see (please remember I'm a newbie) is that I would have to buy a tuner in addition to the processor if I went with the Rotel 1068 (if I wanted to listen to radio). Does anybody have any input on this? Thanks in advance.

 

[PENG]

The other reason I am using separate power amps with my 3805 is because (as many here already know) the 3805 puts out about 75w/ch with all channels driven, where as I am getting a full 200w/ch all driven with the separates.

I read about this 75W/ch with all channels driven many times. I believe this originated from an audioholic review.
The reviewer estimated this number based on the 3805's power consumption number stated at the back of the unit. No one can be sure that the power consumption number is for maximum output with all channel driven. A couple of published lab tests gave it quite a bit higher numbers.

Aside from that, I totally agree it is a good idea to add an external amp. I can only afford to add a 2 channel one to my H.T. system, it still helps.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I read about this 75W/ch with all channels driven many times. I believe this originated from an audioholic review.
The reviewer estimated this number based on the 3805's power consumption number stated at the back of the unit. No one can be sure that the power consumption number is for maximum output with all channel driven. A couple of published lab tests gave it quite a bit higher numbers.

Aside from that, I totally agree it is a good idea to add an external amp. I can only afford to add a 2 channel one to my H.T. system, it still helps.

Don't forget, the 3805 - along with many other HT receivers, have current limiting circuits. Output doesn't "double down" like many high end power amplifiers when resistance increases. That's why a separate amp does so well with insensitive, lower ohm speakers.

Here's the two articles on the 3805's power output.

Look under "build quality."
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/Denon-AVR3805_review10.php

"true output power in 7-channels all-channels-driven would be about 850 x 0.7 – 50 = 545 Watts / 7 = 77 watts per channel assuming the receiver doesn’t have built-in current limiting."
Guess what? The 3805 has built in current limiting.


http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/DenonAVR-3805lab.pdf
The issue here is the power specs were taken at 1000Hz instead of full bandwidth. I'm not sure why S&V chooses this route.

In direct comparison, here's the monster HK7300 specs. Or should I say "no comparison."
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/harmonkardonAVR7300lab.pdf

 

[newfmp3]

Don't forget, the 3805 - along with many other HT receivers, have current limiting circuits. Output doesn't "double down" like many high end power amplifiers when resistance increases. That's why a separate amp does so well with insensitive, lower ohm speakers.

Here's the two articles on the 3805's power output.

Look under "build quality."
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/Denon-AVR3805_review10.php

"true output power in 7-channels all-channels-driven would be about 850 x 0.7 – 50 = 545 Watts / 7 = 77 watts per channel assuming the receiver doesn’t have built-in current limiting."
Guess what? The 3805 has built in current limiting.


http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/DenonAVR-3805lab.pdf
The issue here is the power specs were taken at 1000Hz instead of full bandwidth. I'm not sure why S&V chooses this route.

In direct comparison, here's the monster HK7300 specs. Or should I say "no comparison."
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/harmonkardonAVR7300lab.pdf

ahhh, but you see, around here we are not supposed to buy into this theory of ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN.

 

[PENG]

Don't forget, the 3805 - along with many other HT receivers, have current limiting circuits. Output doesn't "double down" like many high end power amplifiers when resistance increases. That's why a separate amp does so well with insensitive, lower ohm speakers.

Here's the two articles on the 3805's power output.

Look under "build quality."
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/Denon-AVR3805_review10.php

"true output power in 7-channels all-channels-driven would be about 850 x 0.7 – 50 = 545 Watts / 7 = 77 watts per channel assuming the receiver doesn’t have built-in current limiting."
Guess what? The 3805 has built in current limiting.


http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/DenonAVR-3805lab.pdf
The issue here is the power specs were taken at 1000Hz instead of full bandwidth. I'm not sure why S&V chooses this route.

In direct comparison, here's the monster HK7300 specs. Or should I say "no comparison."
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/harmonkardonAVR7300lab.pdf

How about this one:
http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/804denon/index2.html

If the 3805 is so current limited, how could it deliver 218.4W at 0.1% distortion and 243W at 1%, into 4 ohms.

The 7300 is of course superior, but S&V tested it at 1 KHz at clipping, same way they tested the 3805.

BuckeyeFan1 you know I agree with you the 7300 is a much more powerful amp than the 3805. I also recognize that the 3805 is not the best receiver to drive power hungry speakers, that's why I supplement mine with a 200WPC amp. What I do not understand is why you tend to put down the 3805. Alright, it isn't a power house but it has more power output than what you have others believed. Please read the What Hi*Fi Nov 2004 issue and see how they ranked it against more expensive receivers such as the Arcam AVR300, and NADT773. They certainly ranked it much higher than they did with HK's AVR630 (a more appropriate comparsion IMHO). Bench test results from other British sources also put the power output of the 3805 ahead of other similarly priced receivers. Anyway, I know you do like your reciever but please also recognize that it is not as weak in the power department as you think it is. I own two power amps and power hungry 87 dB speakers and I honestly do not find the 3805 all that current limited. This high current thing often gets blown out of proportion. It is important, but it still follows ohms law, you need low impedance and/or loud level listening, to draw high currents.

 

[newfmp3]

PENG

where are these british sources you keep talking of? I'm very curious. Are they online?

 

[PENG]

"true output power in 7-channels all-channels-driven would be about 850 x 0.7 – 50 = 545 Watts / 7 = 77 watts per channel assuming the receiver doesn’t have built-in current limiting."
Guess what? The 3805 has built in current limiting.

First of all, please follow this link:

http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Owner's Manual/AVR 630 OM .pdf

Our well respected HKAVR630 has a power input (in other words, power consumption) of 550W, at a typical p.f. of slightly less than 0.8, 550W implies roughly 700VA, that's quite a bit less than the 3805's 850 VA.

Secondly, the AVR630 has a specified "1000W at rated output all 7 channel driven" whereas the 3805 does not specify its power consumption under the same condition. Since H.T. mag tested the 3805 to have more output at 1,2,5 channels, it is reasonable to think that the 3805's "maximum", or "at rated output all channel driven" power input (or power consumption) will be much higher than the 850 VA labelled on its back.

Last point, okay it has built in current limit, but don't most modern mid level receivers has that as a protective feature? AKA "protection mode"? I would think that the limit would be high enough that if it does not go into protection mode it would likely damage something. This protective feature is not necessarily a bad thing as long as the limit is set high enough. Have you watched spider man, LOTR ROTK and found your 3805 lacking headroom or bass? Mine did okay even with my 87 dB Veritas towers.

Anyway, my point is, we can make all kinds of assumptions but we really don't have all the facts. For me, the 3805 drives my 87dB speakers reasonably well. I enjoy my music CD's and movies, without feeling being short changed in bass or dynamic range. I supplement it with an amp only because I have an extra one and it is always better to have more power on hand.

 

[PENG]

PENG

where are these british sources you keep talking of? I'm very curious. Are they online?

I hope the following links work for you. Once it opens, you can download the file. Only a couple of them have test data. Their output into 4 ohm numbers are in line with H.T. mag's lab test results. Sure they tested them at 1 KHz, but say you discount them by 10 to 15 % for 20-20K, the numbers would still look pretty good.

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=4426

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=4488

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=4684

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=5276

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=5356

The one that I mentioned a few times was a review by What hi*fi. It is one of the leading British S&V magazine. You cannot read their reviews on line but you should be able to read it in a library. In the November issue, it reviewed the 3805, NADT773, Arcam AVR300, AVR630, Yamaha RX-V2400, RX-V1500, and a few others including a Pioneer Elite. The 3805/3910 combo received (each) 5 stars and they ranked them as best choice. If you read the fine print, they didn't give them top marks just because of the bells and whistles. They actually thought it sounded great and powerful.

 

[Obanthedog]

How about Sherwood Newcastle?

I have been looking at the Paradigm Reference Studio 60 (v3)'s with the CC-570, SA10-R in-ceilings, and a Paradigm PW2200 sub. I have heard the 60's at my local Paradigm dealer and they sounded quite stunning with the Sherwood Newcastle R-965. This baby has been given high marks in recent reviews and the build quality is excellent. List price is about $1995 USD and it is rated at 120 watts x 7. It really looks and feels like a premium product, definitely above the NAD and on par with the Rotel. Sherwood USA actually produces many popular OEM AV Receivers (Marantz, Denon, among others) and their Newcastle line mirrors the Paradigm design goals of performance and value.
I plan on adding my faithful old Adcom GFA 555 2-channel power amp to give the 60's a bit more kick.