Best Receiver for $2500?

[Ironman129]

So I've been hanging around for a while but this is my first post. I am putting together my first HT in about 10 years. I've planned for about $5k for speakers and recievers, and probably another $1k for a good Bluray player. For my speakers I am planning on doing the Paradigm Millenia One with the Seismic 110 sub. I haven't had the chance to audition these specific speakers, but have auditioned other Paradigm speakers and have always been impressed with and enjoyed their sound.

I've was looking at the Arcam AVR400 Reciever. there have been some mixed reviews about this one and this is where I've been running int trouble. I've also looked at the Athem MRX700, but again haven't had a chance to audition or listen to them. I won't be back in the states for a couple more months, but was wondering if anyone could give feedback on this setup. I am planning on using this for both music and movies, probably an equal amount of both.

I appreciate any help.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

So I've been hanging around for a while but this is my first post. I am putting together my first HT in about 10 years. I've planned for about $5k for speakers and recievers, and probably another $1k for a good Bluray player. For my speakers I am planning on doing the Paradigm Millenia One with the Seismic 110 sub. I haven't had the chance to audition these specific speakers, but have auditioned other Paradigm speakers and have always been impressed with and enjoyed their sound.

I've was looking at the Arcam AVR400 Reciever. there have been some mixed reviews about this one and this is where I've been running int trouble. I've also looked at the Athem MRX700, but again haven't had a chance to audition or listen to them. I won't be back in the states for a couple more months, but was wondering if anyone could give feedback on this setup. I am planning on using this for both music and movies, probably an equal amount of both.

I appreciate any help.

6k budget for 2.1, avr and Bd?
Salk SongTower RT 2700/pr http://www.salksound.com/songtower home.htm or http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic3.html
Sub: Rythmic F15HP $1299 in Piano
AVR: Yammi A3000 - 1600 http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-A3000-7-1-Channel-Audio-Receiver/dp/B003XDU47K/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1317208865&sr=1-1
BD: Oppo BDP-93 - $500

 

[3db]

In this price range, I would go with a Yamaha RX-A3010 . It has lots of power reserve, every conceivable feature going for it and bullet proof reliability. Stay away from the preconceived ideas about receivers sounding bright, laid back etc. Thats all audiophool talk. Amps/receviers have a linear frequency response way beyond teh audio spectrum so there is no chance of a receiver/amp sounding a particular way.

 

[Cruise Missile]

I vote for a Denon 4311ci. I've been using one for 8 months without any hiccups. Great piece of gear.

 

[Ironman129]

6k budget for 2.1, avr and Bd?

It would be for a 5.1 setup. The BD looks nice. I'll have to do a little more research on that one. The Arcam BDP100 was a little more expensive than I wanted, so that helps. Here is where I am having the trouble. I read that the arcam is better than the A3000 or A3010 but then I've neard the reverse. Short of going in to a place that has both (I can't find a place close to me that carries both and will do a comparison) is there a significant difference between the 2? I know most people have their favorites, but is there a general consensus in this price range? I don't need multiple rooms/zones, just a quality, acurate AVR.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This is my opinion.

Based on the measurements of the Arcam $5,500 AVR, the $500 Sony AVR had better overall measurements in terms of crosstalk, THD, SNR.

So I wouldn't say Arcam sounds better than any AVR!

They may be built tougher and to last longer and have better components, but they sure don't measure any better than any other cheap AVRs out there, which IMO is pathetic given the price of the Arcam.

The Anthem Pre-Pros measure pretty well, but the Anthem AVRs don't measure all that great either, certainly not any better than other AVRs.

Even the Yamaha RX-A1000 leaves the most expensive Arcam & Anthem AVRs in the dust in terms of THD, Crosstalk, and SNR.

The Denon AVR-4311 will also blow away the Arcam & Anthem AVRs in terms of measured THD, Crosstalk, and SNR.

Bottom line, in Direct or Pure Direct modes (Bypassing any EQs, DSPs, Tones), these AVRs will sound the same when you level match all of them.

Amps, Preamps, BD players are not like speakers. If you want the best possible sound, put your stock into the speakers.

The Oppo Universal players will most likely blow away any other Universal players in the market.

Now if you like the aesthetics of Arcam, Anthem, etc., then I do understand.

But in this price range, I would get either Denon, Yamaha, or Pioneer Elite.

HTM measurement of Yamaha RX-A1000:

FR –0.02 dB at 20 Hz, –0.02 dB at 20 kilohert.
THD+N was less than 0.007 percent at 1 kHz when driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load. Crosstalk at 1 kHz was –97.43 dB left to right and –93.41 dB right to left.
The signal-to-noise ratio from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –108.41 dBrA.

Conclusion: Awesome measurements.

The Yamaha RX-A3010 is 150WPC x 9ch:

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-A3010BL-AV-Receiver-Black/dp/B0056GJLJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317214137&sr=8-1

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

It would be for a 5.1 setup.

So the budget is 6k for 5.1 speakers and electronics? How big is the space? Is it open to other rooms
Whats your expected usage? HT/Music ? Whats the percent? (HT includes: Games,TV etc)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My take (assuming you have a big enough room ):

Speakers: Philharmonic 1 towers @ $800 each x 5 = $4,000:
http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic1.html

Subwoofer: Rythmik 15" sub for $1,200.

AVR: Yamaha RXA-1000 for $700:
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-A1000-7-1-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B003XDU48O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317215658&sr=8-1

BD player: Oppo BD93 for $500:
http://www.amazon.com/OPPO-BDP-93-Universal-Network-Blu-ray/dp/B004BLK24S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317215862&sr=8-1

Total: ~ $6,400.

 

[jcl]

You've gotten a lot of good advice already, but I couldn't resist offering up some of my own....

'Lifestyle' speakers like the Paradigm Millenia have design compromises when compared to conventional speakers and these will not sound just the same as other Paradigms. Not to say they will sound bad, but they will have different characteristics than the Signature or Monitor series for example. You really should make sure you listen to any speaker before buying. Especially at this price point it's a bit of an investment, and speakers don't really become dated like an 8 track, cassette, betamax, vhs, laser disc, prologic preamp, etc....

B & W xt, Definitive Technology mythos, and Polk all come to mind as offering similar speakers if you are going for the modern tall, slender and silver look. It's a good idea to find a place to take a listen for comparison. The Def Tech Mythos STS might go low enough that you can go without a sub. I'm pretty sure all the others will pretty much require one.

For subs most recommend internet direct as giving more bang for the buck. HSU, Outlaw, Rythmik, SVS, Epik, etc. Generally sealed will be smaller than ported, and 2 are better than 1.

1k for a blue ray would be a waste of money to me, unless you're looking to match your receiver or pre pro.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

My take (assuming you have a big enough room ):

Speakers: Philharmonic 1 towers @ $800 each x 5 = $4,000:
http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic1.html

Subwoofer: Rythmik 15" sub for $1,200.

AVR: Yamaha RXA-1000 for $700:
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-A1000-7-1-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B003XDU48O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317215658&sr=8-1

BD player: Oppo BD93 for $500:
http://www.amazon.com/OPPO-BDP-93-Universal-Network-Blu-ray/dp/B004BLK24S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317215862&sr=8-1

Total: ~ $6,400.

I wish Denis would add bookshefls to the model range to use for surround duty..
I'd throw in Emotiva XPA5 since the speakers would like stronger amp as the impedance stays mostly in 4 and dips to 3 ohm and 88 sensitivity
Sub could switched to less expensive HSU ULS-15 or Epic Empire

 

[GranteedEV]

I recommend a denon 4311 ($1200) + Emotiva XPA-3 ($600). I wouldn't bother with audiophile brands like Arcam or Anthem.. overpriced and underperforming. The denon's 130wpc can handle the four surrounds while the XPA-3 gives limitless power to the three fronts. In terms of featureset, the denon is the only unit with Audyssey XT32 and SubEQ.

For speakers, I'd definitely think twice on the paradigms. they can impress the average person on the showroom floor bout they're not really most 'livable' because of how in-your-face their presentation can get.

My recommendation for on-walls would go to the EMP EW35.

If you're willing to accept floorstanders, I like the 3X Philharmonics reccommendation, along with their cousin, the Salk SongSeries. The Philharmonic 2 is a worthwhile upgrade over the Phil 1 simply because it goes from a top 15 tweeter in the world to a top 3 tweeter :O - Phils for surrounds is a bit insane though, awesome as that might be. When using a sub, I'd go for the Phil 2s over the Phil 3s, since sensitivity is a good bit higher.

The paradigm sub is probably a poor choice. For subs I reccommend at least two if not four. So I recommend 2X Rythmik FV15HP

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/rythmik-fv15hp

Or maybe FOUR HSU ULS-15!!!

1K is ridiculous for a blu ray player unless those features really matter to you. I agree that the OPPO 93 is almost unbeatable ITO performance AND features. The Oppp 95 adds a few features but i can't realistically justify its cost to anyone.

 

[GranteedEV]

I wish Denis would add bookshefls to the model range to use for surround duty..
I'd throw in Emotiva XPA5 since the speakers would like stronger amp as the impedance stays mostly in 4 and dips to 3 ohm and 88 sensitivity
Sub could switched to less expensive HSU ULS-15 or Epic Empire

He probably couldn't keep up with demand if that happened!!

 

[Ironman129]

This is my opinion.

Based on the measurements of the Arcam $5,500 AVR, the $500 Sony AVR had better overall measurements in terms of crosstalk, THD, SNR.

So I wouldn't say Arcam sounds better than any AVR!

I read a couple of years ago a review that the Arcam AVR600 was the best reciever they had heard at any pricepoint. I was hoping the avr400 would share some of that technology

So the budget is 6k for 5.1 speakers and electronics? How big is the space? Is it open to other rooms
Whats your expected usage? HT/Music ? Whats the percent? (HT includes: Games,TV etc)

50/50 music and HT. I listen to a lot of vocals and jazz and prefer my treble to be a little on the "soft" side. In some classical music the cymbals can be a little irritating, the smae in certain movie with bullets and car crashes. The room is medium size, about12'x17'.

You've gotten a lot of good advice already, but I couldn't resist offering up some of my own....

'Lifestyle' speakers like the Paradigm Millenia have design compromises when compared to conventional speakers and these will not sound just the same as other Paradigms. Not to say they will sound bad, but they will have different characteristics than the Signature or Monitor series for example. You really should make sure you listen to any speaker before buying. Especially at this price point it's a bit of an investment, and speakers don't really become dated like an 8 track, cassette, betamax, vhs, laser disc, prologic preamp, etc....

B & W xt, Definitive Technology mythos, and Polk all come to mind as offering similar speakers if you are going for the modern tall, slender and silver look. It's a good idea to find a place to take a listen for comparison. The Def Tech Mythos STS might go low enough that you can go without a sub. I'm pretty sure all the others will pretty much require one.

For subs most recommend internet direct as giving more bang for the buck. HSU, Outlaw, Rythmik, SVS, Epik, etc. Generally sealed will be smaller than ported, and 2 are better than 1.

1k for a blue ray would be a waste of money to me, unless you're looking to match your receiver or pre pro.

I like bookself size speakers. I like them to fill the room without taking over the room if that makes sense. The MilleniaOne seemed to have good reviews, but If I'm going to have a sub anyway, floorstanding towers just seem a little too much.

I know I just have to go and audition but I was hoping to have narrowed dow the search a bit to a couple of options. I like the B&Ws, a little pricey for my, and again the paradigms just seemed to have a softer treble.

 

[GranteedEV]

I read a couple of years ago a review that the Arcam AVR600 was the best reciever they had heard at any pricepoint. I was hoping the avr400 would share some of that technology

hint - they all sound the same when you get past the extreme bottom end. Those same reviewers would be unable to identify the anthems and arcams with a blindfold on, from a marantz, denon, or yamaha.

50/50 music and HT. I listen to a lot of vocals and jazz and prefer my treble to be a little on the "soft" side. In some classical music the cymbals can be a little irritating, the smae in certain movie with bullets and car crashes. The room is medium size, about12'x17'.

When, then are you looking at aggressive speakers like Paradigm? I think you have never auditioned a speaker with correct treble balance, as paradigm treble is rarely relaxed and certainly not 'soft'. If you were to check out the Phil 1s or Salk Songtowers, just for example, and return to the Paradigms, you'd really question what you were thinking. I've auditioned a pair of paradigms the same day as a few pairs of focals and the dofference is like night and day - the focals imaged better, vocals were more relaxed and believable, high frequencies were more airy, and bass was deeper, yet less offensively prominent.

I like bookself size speakers. I like them to fill the room without taking over the room if that makes sense.

It really doesn't, unless you're saying that you prefer compressed dynamics. A well designed multi driver tower should have just as balanced tonality as a well designed bookshelf, and should have just as stable a stereo image too. If the off axis response tapers smoothly without any flaring, it won't overload the room with offensive midrange reflections. If the bass is well tuned in a non resonant enclosure (admittedly difficult for many larger speaker companies to get right at low cost) then it will be tight, controlled, and never dominant. Midrange will not be recessed if the balance is correct, although you'll probably hear the sound eminate from behind the speakers rather than in your face. Midrange won't be shouty like many bookshelves, because with more drivers comes more sensitivity and a design can be more optimized for use awY from walls. The blend from mains to subs will never sound disconnected.

Not all towers fit the above criteria and likewise for bookshelves, but IMO if you want a balanced system you can't fall jnto the audiophile trap.

Bookshelve speakers are a comprimise for

- People who lack the space or money for towers
- Companies who can't make adequately braced, deadened, and damped towers well enough

They're not any less likely to 'overload a room'. unless they're specifically designed IE to only be used mounted o. a wall.

The MilleniaOne seemed to have good reviews, but If I'm going to have a sub anyway, floorstanding towers just seem a little too much.

A sub will handle from ~20hz to ~100hz
So you need speakers that can keep up with the sub from ~60hz to ~300hz if you want system balance. If your mains run out of steam before the subs do, the sub is useless.

I suspect you're just used to hearing unbalanced sounding speakers with too much midbass from 100hz to 200hz - in such a case people feel there's too much bass and theor first thought is that the room is probably too small for a tower. the truth has more to do with tonal balance.

 

[3db]

I read a couple of years ago a review that the Arcam AVR600 was the best reciever they had heard at any pricepoint. I was hoping the avr400 would share some of that technology

I know I just have to go and audition but I was hoping to have narrowed dow the search a bit to a couple of options. I like the B&Ws, a little pricey for my, and again the paradigms just seemed to have a softer treble.

The reviewer who wrote "the Arcam AVR600 was the best reciever they had heard at any pricepoint" writes for an audio/hometheater magazine and is paid to keep the ads coming into the magazine . A nasty review would remove Arcam advertising dollars from the magazine.

As I eluded earlier, all respectable receivers/amps from Yamaha, Denon, etc have a flat frequency response well beyond the audio spectrum ...points of which humans can't hear anymore. I don't think its possible to tell the difference between makes during normal listening sessions where one isn't pushing the amp/receiver. Its only when one begins to push the amp/receiver to its limits is when the differences are heard but again, this has to do with power rather than who made it.

As far as liking speakers,, its a subjective call. Paradigm makes different series of speakers and some of them are fantatsic, others aren't so good. They are not all bad. I do like Paradigm studio series of speaker, but dislike their monitor series. I do like PSB's Image, Imagine, and Synchronous seires of speakers. I own a suite of Image series speakers.

 

[jcl]

Lifestyle type speakers are most often bass shy for the size / money. Even the towers (excluding maybe the def tech mythos) have less bass for their size than a comparable 'box' speaker.

If your speakers give out at 200hz and your sub is covering everything < 200 hz it will be localizable. I know, I have some little boston acoustics that I like the sound of, but they don't go low and you hear people's voices coming from the sub instead of the center speaker. This can be very distracting. If you do decide to go with this type speaker I strongly suggest you still go with a tower.

That said, you're going to be living with the speakers, not us. Looks matter more to some than others. My infinity primus 362's have not been well received by my spouse. I'm sure the paradigm millenia's would have gotten a better reception.

I find that the towers are not more intrusive than bookshelves on a stand. Especially for lifestyle type speakers the tower is probably the better option if you are placing the speakers in the room! If you're planning on putting the speakers on the wall or near the wall then that's a whole 'nother thing. For speakers location is very important. Salk Sound towers stuck in a corner may not sound as good as the millenia's put out in the room.

You asked for advice on a receiver and instead we're giving you an earful about speakers!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I read a couple of years ago a review that the Arcam AVR600 was the best reciever they had heard at any pricepoint. I was hoping the avr400 would share some of that technology

Yeah, I know. The guy who said that looked like an idiot saying it too.

Look at the measurements, and just completely ignore what those people are saying in the magazine.

Here is the HTM review of the $5,000 Arcam AVR600:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/arcam-avr600-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

THD+N was 0.034.
Crosstalk was –74.68 dB left to right and –74.14 dB right to left.
The signal-to-noise ratio was –95.20 dBrA.

Those numbers are 100% PATHETIC for a $5,000 AVR!!!

Seriously, these measurements look like a $300 AVR!!!

Actually, I think a $300 Yamaha AVR has much better measurements!

But all specs aside, they all sound the same in Direct Mode (bypass EQ, Tones, DSP) and assuming ample power and all level-matched.

No offense to anyone, of course.

 

[GranteedEV]

Salk Sound towers stuck in a corner may not sound as good as the millenia's put out in the room.

Who would put these:

in a corner

THD+N was 0.034.
Crosstalk was –74.68 dB left to right and –74.14 dB right to left.
The signal-to-noise ratio was –95.20 dBrA.

I agree that they probably sound the same and the crosstalk number is especially meh but with due respect, these are some of the least relevant measurements out there. I mean if we're going to measure meaningless things, at least measure things that COULD (though not necessarily) have an effect on the sound: Where's the powercube test showing unconditional voltage stablity into any current demanding load, the crossover distortion test showing good amplifier design, transient intermodulation distortion, the actual distortion spectra by order, and maybe an efficiency test for good measure?

I don't put much stock in most magazine measurements.

 

[Pyrrho]

I personally would redistribute your budget and put as much as possible into speakers (including subwoofer). Unless I needed SACD or DVD-Audio playback, I would probably spend about $100 on a Panasonic BD player, and look at receivers (probably a closeout sale on a Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, or Pioneer) priced around $500-600 with all of the rest of the money going into speakers. (The only exceptions would be if I required some special feature found only on a more expensive model, or if the speakers were a difficult load or inefficient and required more power; in the latter case, the receiver would be the same [making sure it had preamp outputs for all channels], but I would add a power amp to drive the difficult speakers. That, of course, can only be determined after one selects one's speakers; it would be wasted money to buy a power amp if the speakers are very easy to drive.)

I used to use a $600 receiver with over $6000 worth of speakers, and it sounded great. I replaced the receiver with one that retails for $1700 (because I wanted more features and got a deal on a closeout model), and unless I engage a feature that affects the sound, my system sounds the same as before. Now, if my speakers were inefficient or a difficult load, it may have mattered because the new receiver puts out about twice the power of the old one, but the old one could drive my speakers to levels I found painful with crystal clarity, so the extra power is useless for me.

Put your money into your speakers if you want it to actually sound better, and spend as little as you reasonably can for the electronics, and you will have the best sound you can have for your money.

Now, if you buy speakers that are inefficient or a difficult impedance, then you will need to spend more money to get a good amplifier, but the best way to do that is to buy a receiver with preamp outputs for all channels and buy a separate power amplifier(s) to drive the speakers, so you are still looking at a receiver in the $500-600 range. This is assuming you do not require any features that are only found on higher models, but just keep in mind that fancy features can be expensive without improving the sound.

If you follow my advice, it will work well for the future as well. When you decide later that you want some new feature that they dream up, you will be replacing a relatively inexpensive receiver, not something that cost you a lot of money, and your speakers never need to be upgraded if you bought something really good in the first place. Speakers are a better investment in the future, as well as making more of a difference in the sound now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Unless I needed SACD or DVD-Audio playback, I would probably spend about $100 on a Panasonic BD player

I have a $100 Panasonic BD player (the BDP-110??).

I use it 100% more often than I use my $2,000 Denon BD players.

The Panasonic BD player can stream Amazon Prime, Netflix, etc.

And it can stream Netflix 1080p & 5.1 DD+ audio (everything highly compressed of course), which no other brand name players out there can do as of today.