Best mid range receiver for 4 ohm towers?

[PENG]

As to what you need for a specific set of speakers - you need to have a chart of the EPDR - so you can determine what the worst case "impedance equivalent" is - and then find an AVR or amp, that can supply the power/V/current needed to achieve the SPL's you are targeting in your room ....

I appreciate that you stated it in a less generic way this time.

 

[Eppie]

? is there even any 8k content out there.

None that I have come across. Besides, with my eye sight the way it is, 4k is plenty of resolution at a 10ft seating distance. I saw the 8k features as just an extra expense and purchased a 4k TV. Big price bump to get 8k. My AVR supports 8k but it was not a feature I was shopping for; just happened to be included with that model. Maybe in 10 years we'll see 8k become the standard but my eye sight won't be any better.

 

[Trebdp83]

? is there even any 8k content out there.

Currently, the only real reason for one to concern themselves with an 8K capable receiver is that it means it will also support 4K @120Hz. But, reading the fine print is necessary as well. Receiver HDMI ports top out at 40Gbps. Some have them across the board while some have a mix of 40Gbps and 24Gbps ports, some with 40Gbps and 18Gbps ports, and some with 24Gbps and 18Gbps ports. These would all qualify as HDMI 2.1 receivers. Those with just 18Gbps ports would be HDMI 2.0 models.

If there are no plans to connect a PC or next gen game console capable of outputting video at 4K@120Hz to the receiver, HDMI 2.0 models will do for disc players and streamers. If the HDMI 2.0 receiver supports eARC, devices supporting 4K @120Hz can be connected directly to a TV supporting 4K @120Hz and eARC to get audio back to the receiver. The uncompressed multichannel PCM audio signal of a PC or next gen game console will exceed the bandwidth limitations of ARC.

The 8500 can be upgraded with a new HDMI 2.1 board featuring a single HDMI 2.1 40Gbps port. I believe it is also one of a very few Denon models that can be firmware upgraded to support eARC without the new board. Then, 4K @120Hz devices can be connected directly to a TV supporting 4K @120Hz and eARC with no audio signal issues when sending uncompressed multichannel PCM, Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA signals to the receiver. Check TV specs for DTS support.

 

[cpp]

Currently, the only real reason for one to concern themselves with an 8K capable receiver is that it means it will also support 4K @120Hz. But, reading the fine print is necessary as well. Receiver HDMI ports top out at 40Gbps. Some have them across the board while some have a mix of 40Gbps and 24Gbps ports, some with 40Gbps and 18Gbps ports, and some with 24Gbps and 18Gbps ports. These would all qualify as HDMI 2.1 receivers. Those with just 18Gbps ports would be HDMI 2.0 models.

If there are no plans to connect a PC or next gen game console capable of outputting video at 4K@120Hz to the receiver, HDMI 2.0 models will do for disc players and streamers. If the HDMI 2.0 receiver supports eARC, devices supporting 4K @120Hz can be connected directly to a TV supporting 4K @120Hz and eARC to get audio back to the receiver. The uncompressed multichannel PCM audio signal of a PC or next gen game console will exceed the bandwidth limitations of ARC.

The 8500 can be upgraded with a new HDMI 2.1 board featuring a single HDMI 2.1 40Gbps port. I believe it is also one of a very few Denon models that can be firmware upgraded to support eARC without the new board. Then, 4K @120Hz devices can be connected directly to a TV supporting 4K @120Hz and eARC with no audio signal issues when sending uncompressed multichannel PCM, Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA signals to the receiver. Check TV specs for DTS support.

SO NO, there's no 8K content from any major streaming service available yet.

 

[dolynick]

SO NO, there's no 8K content from any major streaming service available yet.

Depends if you count YouTube or not
They're pretty "major", but I get your context.

 

[Trebdp83]

There is no commercial 8K content and no reason for an 8K TV unless one wants to see every detail from 3ft away. Again, a receiver with HDMI ports labeled 8K means it supports 8K @60Hz/4K @120Hz. The 4K labeled ports will support 4K @60Hz. But, even then, there are issues with some receivers. I’m looking at you Sony.

 

[cpp]

There is no commercial 8K content and no reason for an 8K TV unless one wants to see every detail from 3ft away. Again, a receiver with HDMI ports labeled 8K means it supports 8K @60Hz/4K @120Hz. The 4K labeled ports will support 4K @60Hz. But, even then, there are issues with some receivers. I’m looking at you Sony.

What are the current issues with Sony AVR's , thanks

 

[Monitor Audioholic]

Thank you all so much for contributing with a wealth of all of your technical knowledge and expertise. I am truly amazed at just how little I know about something we all generally take for granted, sound!

 

[Monitor Audioholic]

What are the current issues with Sony AVR's , thanks

I heard something about the TA-AN1000 not being able to support any speakers below 4 ohms?

 

[Trebdp83]

What are the current issues with Sony AVR's , thanks

Well, the HDMI spec and the ports on just about any receiver can be a frustration. But, Sony is being a bit shifty concerning a few of their ports. Some of their ports can handle 4K @60Hz BUT only when color subsampled to 4:2:0 using 8 bit color. This is why they warn of a 4K 30p max when connecting a PC(RGB/4:4:4) to the #5, #6 and #7 ports of equipped models. Streaming devices outputting Dolby Vision(RGB/4:4:4 8 bit) @60Hz would also take issue with these ports and would have to switch to HDR10 using color subsampling to output at 60Hz. Those ports are best left to older HD devices.

One must also be careful with 8K ports that are limited to 24Gbps when gaming at 4K @120Hz. The DSC(Display Screen Compression) feature must be supported by the device, receiver and TV to avoid color subsampling when using the 24Gbps ports and outputting 4K @120Hz. Some new receivers have 40Gbps ports all the way around while others, like some Yamaha models, cap out at 24Gbps. No currently available AVR has full 48Gbps HDMI ports. A 40Gbps max is good enough for 4K @120Hz HDR10 4:4:4 10 bit but 48Gbps would be needed for uncompressed 4K @120Hz 12 bit. While there are 10 bit color panel TVs that support 48Gbps, there aren't any 12 bit color panel TVs on the market yet to take full advantage of 12 bit color.

 

[Tankini]

Well, the HDMI spec and the ports on just about any receiver can be a frustration. But, Sony is being a bit shifty concerning a few of their ports. Some of their ports can handle 4K @60Hz BUT only when color subsampled to 4:2:0 using 8 bit color. This is why they warn of a 4K 30p max when connecting a PC(RGB/4:4:4) to the #5, #6 and #7 ports of equipped models. Streaming devices outputting Dolby Vision(RGB/4:4:4 8 bit) @60Hz would also take issue with these ports and would have to switch to HDR10 using color subsampling to output at 60Hz. Those ports are best left to older HD devices.

One must also be careful with 8K ports that are limited to 24Gbps when gaming at 4K @120Hz. The DSC(Display Screen Compression) feature must be supported by the device, receiver and TV to avoid color subsampling when using the 24Gbps ports and outputting 4K @120Hz. Some new receivers have 40Gbps ports all the way around while others, like some Yamaha models, cap out at 24Gbps. No currently available AVR has full 48Gbps HDMI ports. A 40Gbps max is good enough for 4K @120Hz HDR10 4:4:4 10 bit but 48Gbps would be needed for uncompressed 4K @120Hz 12 bit. While there are 10 bit color panel TVs that support 48Gbps, there aren't any 12 bit color panel TVs on the market yet to take full advantage of 12 bit color.

Thanks for posting this! Didn't know about 12 bit TV panel. So all of this is of concern only if your gamer?

 

[Trebdp83]

Back to the audio side, if having been happy with the 1910, I'd also have a look at the X4700H. With nine amps, it can power a 5.1.4 speaker configuration and, like the X6700H and the X8500H, it supports 2CH Playback mode. This means you can setup speaker and subwoofer settings for DIRECT or STEREO mode manually and differently from other sound modes. So, when enjoying multichannel audio such as Dolby Atmos with a 5.1.4 speaker configuration, speakers can be set at Small with a 120HZ crossover all around, just for example, and the subwoofer setting at LFE. Shouldn't stress the amps too much. Switch to DIRECT mode or STEREO mode for two channel music, and the front speakers can be set at Large with the subwoofer set at LFE+Main and also shouldn't stress the amps too much. The low range signals copied to the subwoofer are fixed when using LFE+Main. You'd have to spend some real coin on the X6800H to adjust the signals copied to the subwoofer using the LFE+Main setting for 2CH Playback settings.

 

[Trebdp83]

Thanks for posting this! Didn't know about 12 bit TV panel. So all of this is of concern only if your gamer?

Mostly. There's quite a bit of homework to consider when using a gaming PC and/or next gen gaming console with a new AVR and TV. After making sure they all support 4K @120Hz, one must use the correct ports and settings all the way around for optimal output.

 

[dlaloum]

I heard something about the TA-AN1000 not being able to support any speakers below 4 ohms?

Pretty much all the mid market AVR's are limited in their ability to handle what I would call "difficult" speakers.

They will be fine with speakers rated 8ohm or 6ohm... with speakers rated 4ohm, it becomes much harder to tell.

If the speaker is a 4ohm speaker without dips in impedance dropping to or below the 2ohm level - then it will probably be fine, if it has such dips - then it may or may not work well for your setup.

You need to look at the impedance curve to frequency for your speakers (preferably an EPDR graph if available) to get some idea of whether they are "difficult" or not.

The majority of 4ohm speakers will be OK - but there are salient examples that definitely cause trouble for many amps... some models of Martin Logan are known to drop down to 1ohm, the Gallo Nucleus Reference speakers that I own drop to 1.6 ohm - there are other examples - but they are a minority category. -Still it is worthwhile checking what your speakers present as a load to the amp.

People who own such difficult speakers, are pretty much the only ones who gain substantial benefits from external power amps matched up to their AVR's... (but only if those power amps have been selected to handle their speakers - obviously!)

 

[PENG]

I heard something about the TA-AN1000 not being able to support any speakers below 4 ohms?

No!!
I have repeated on forums about such internet hearsay, misconception..., the fact is, it depends on what kind of "support" ones mean, or want, in terms of driving such low impedance (lower than 6 ohms nominal) speakers.

Most AVRs, unless they have a impedance sensing device such that it would activate the protection circuit, will be able to drive 4 ohm, or less speakers.

For example, the Sony is rated as follow, pasted right from the Owner's manual:
Amplifier section1) Minimum RMS Output Power (6 ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz, THD 0.09%) 100 W + 100 W minimum

That means it should be able to deliver about 4 A, with 2 channel driven simultaneously.

It also mean, from Ohm's law and the power formula calculations, that it could do 64 W + 64 W minimum into 4 ohms, or 32 W+ 32 W into 2 ohms.

No electrical engineers, or anyone with basic EE knowledge would dispute such a fact, again, assuming the AVR does not have impedance sensing to activate some sort of protective circuit.

In general, if one wants to make a blanket statement, then as @dlaloum mentioned many times, it is not a good idea to use AVRs to drive 4 ohm nominal speakers, except for those flagship class AVRs. But then, it would not be a good idea to rely on "blanket"/generic statements either, because it still depends on a few other factors such as distance, speaker sensitivity, listening habit, and the speaker's so called "power handling" specifications. The last one cannot be ignored, think about it, if your speaker manufacturer specs say recommended amp power, or power handling 15-150 W, and rated 4 ohm nominal, and then your drive it with a Crown amp such as the XLS2502 at the highest gain setting, you may risk damaging the speakers unless you are very careful with the volume control, such as keep the remote and the volume inaccessible to small kids.

 

[Monitor Audioholic]

Tha

No!!
I have repeated on forums about such internet hearsay, misconception..., the fact is, it depends on what kind of "support" ones mean, or want, in terms of driving such low impedance (lower than 6 ohms nominal) speakers.

Most AVRs, unless they have a impedance sensing device such that it would activate the protection circuit, will be able to drive 4 ohm, or less speakers.

For example, the Sony is rated as follow, pasted right from the Owner's manual:
Amplifier section1) Minimum RMS Output Power (6 ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz, THD 0.09%) 100 W + 100 W minimum

That means it should be able to deliver about 4 A, with 2 channel driven simultaneously.

It also mean, from Ohm's law and the power formula calculations, that it could do 64 W + 64 W minimum into 4 ohms, or 32 W+ 32 W into 2 ohms.

No electrical engineers, or anyone with basic EE knowledge would dispute such a fact, again, assuming the AVR does not have impedance sensing to activate some sort of protective circuit.

In general, if one wants to make a blanket statement, then as @dlaloum mentioned many times, it is not a good idea to use AVRs to drive 4 ohm nominal speakers, except for those flagship class AVRs. But then, it would not be a good idea to rely on "blanket"/generic statements either, because it still depends on a few other factors such as distance, speaker sensitivity, listening habit, and the speaker's so called "power handling" specifications. The last one cannot be ignored, think about it, if your speaker manufacturer specs say recommended amp power, or power handling 15-150 W, and rated 4 ohm nominal, and then your drive it with a Crown amp such as the XLS2502 at the highest gain setting, you may risk damaging the speakers unless you are very careful with the volume control, such as keep the remote and the volume inaccessible to small kids.

Thanks Peng. Makes sense when you put it like that! Got a 3 year old boy that is obsessed with remote controls. So, there is a real risk of him accidentally (on purpose) cranking up the volume without me knowing. Tbh it'll probably be me that does it, and wondering why the AVR volume isn't increasing when I'm actually listening to the tv source or something.
What's the safest workaround for this, as this could be genuinely be a problem now i think of it? That's before I factor in the missus and her whinging about "why there are so many remotes and, by the way, which one does the volume again"....

Can i set the AVR to not exceed a maximum volume or won't the the AVR's own protection mechanism kick in when it senses such a steep rise in volume?

 

[Monitor Audioholic]

Pretty much all the mid market AVR's are limited in their ability to handle what I would call "difficult" speakers.

They will be fine with speakers rated 8ohm or 6ohm... with speakers rated 4ohm, it becomes much harder to tell.

If the speaker is a 4ohm speaker without dips in impedance dropping to or below the 2ohm level - then it will probably be fine, if it has such dips - then it may or may not work well for your setup.

You need to look at the impedance curve to frequency for your speakers (preferably an EPDR graph if available) to get some idea of whether they are "difficult" or not.

The majority of 4ohm speakers will be OK - but there are salient examples that definitely cause trouble for many amps... some models of Martin Logan are known to drop down to 1ohm, the Gallo Nucleus Reference speakers that I own drop to 1.6 ohm - there are other examples - but they are a minority category. -Still it is worthwhile checking what your speakers present as a load to the amp.

People who own such difficult speakers, are pretty much the only ones who gain substantial benefits from external power amps matched up to their AVR's... (but only if those power amps have been selected to handle their speakers - obviously!)

Good shout dlaloum. I will ask Monitor audio if they have more deets on my speakers such as the EDPR graph

 

[lovinthehd]

Tha

Thanks Peng. Makes sense when you put it like that! Got a 3 year old boy that is obsessed with remote controls. So, there is a real risk of him accidentally (on purpose) cranking up the volume without me knowing. Tbh it'll probably be me that does it, and wondering why the AVR volume isn't increasing when I'm actually listening to the tv source or something.
What's the safest workaround for this, as this could be genuinely be a problem now i think of it? That's before I factor in the missus and her whinging about "why there are so many remotes and, by the way, which one does the volume again"....

Can i set the AVR to not exceed a maximum volume or won't the the AVR's own protection mechanism kick in when it senses such a steep rise in volume?

Many avrs have both a turn-on volume level as well as an upper limit (I use both features even just for myself), some have passwords to prevent someone else changing settings, too. You really don't want to use the protection mechanism to kick in as some sort of limiter. A good universal remote can be a way around the multiple remotes and easier for family to use.

 

[Monitor Audioholic]

Cool. Cheers lovinthehd. I will set an internal limit, which should be the safest option. Pesky kids!!

 

[dlaloum]

Can i set the AVR to not exceed a maximum volume or won't the the AVR's own protection mechanism kick in when it senses such a steep rise in volume?

I have set my AVR with a max vol level - I am using external amps capable of 440W@8ohm (1200W@2ohm) - so they can easily turn my speakers into smoking ruins!

To ensure no accidents, eg: from someone sitting on a remote, or whatever else! -- I have a max Vol set.