Bernie.........and to think he could have been President !

davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Field Marshall
So now Trump wants to end payroll taxes forever? And Harris wants to pay every unemployed person 2000 a month? That's more than my SS that I payed into for 40+ years and may no longer be funded.. Madness...
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Well, I have to respectfully disagree with your disagreement! :) Here's AOC on billionaires:


I have met several billionaires, and I gotta tell you that the ones I've met earned it and are pretty extraordinary people. AOC's classification that you don't make a billion, you take it is unforgivable bullshit. If this isn't demonization, I don't know what is.
I watched the link and while she is berating billionaires, I just don't get the same message you seem to be. When I watch it, I see more emphasis on the fact that minimum wage is not a viable income (maybe for a single person sharing an apartment, but if you have kids, forget it).
I think she is naive to consider that the "billionaires" will not use the system to their advantage (although there are a few that have a serious conscience about their employees - Roger Milliken comes to mind). I think the problem needs to be addressed at the minimum wage. If you were to move it to $15 (and I feel that our country has the wealth to pay that to anyone who is giving a honest effort at any full-time job), it would definitely slow the rise/number of billionaires. I expect there would be some trickle-up in salary rates as a result, and the gap between the rich and teh poor in this country would be reduced, which is not a bad thing. Clearly a continued progression to a country divided into the "haves" and the "have-nots" is problematic. I am generally of decent morale character, but if stealing was the only way for me to put food on the table for my family, I would.
People talk about the "trickle down" of giving more money to the wealthy (like Trump's $11 trillion tax cut) creating more jobs and benefiting everyone, but that has not proven to be the fact - a corporation (or a wealthy person) will open a new "factory" when they find a good opportunity, not because they have extra cash laying around (extra liquidity can be its own reward). OTOH, if you raise the minimum wage, you can bet that money will end up in the market in short order! And, if someone making minimum wage actually manages to have enough money and self-discipline to start saving, I think that is also progress as they get "invested" in their society!
So, while I do not agree with AOC coaching things in terms of vilifying/penalizing the wealthy, I do agree that more should be done to make this a good life for honest working folk ... and that invariably will be a "drag" on those with the funds to take action on opportunities that present themselves.
I am also talking about changing the tax laws. When someone like Warren Buffet complains that the system is wrong because his maid pays a higher tax rate than he does, that is a problem! There are way too many loopholes in our system! Many of the tax loopholes have a good idea behind them and have been corrupted in the way people game them. Others were corrupt from the start and lobbied (or otherwise bought) exceptions to the main tax rates.
However, I believe the reality is that the pendulum has swung so far to the right that with the added awareness of (not just white) privilege in our country and the way Trump has been marginalizing the worth of the underprivileged; the pendulum is starting to swing in the other direction.
The election of Trump as president has resulted in an exciting (not always a positive thing) time to be paying attention to the development of our country and the "aftermath" of Trump is likely to be every bit as chaotic as Trump's reign for at least a year or so. I feel pretty good about Biden as the guy to get things calmed back down and restore alliances and our place in the world (to the extent it can be repaired).

Straight out of school, I started working for Georgia Power Company as a "Junior Engineer". This was what is known as heavy construction, with 20,000 people working there around the clock!
One day I got paged to immediately come to the Plant Manager's office, which is freaky in an operation that big with so many levels of hierarchy between us. He had one of the Corporate VPs on the phone waiting for me! They wanted to know when I would have one of my major milestones completed and I gave them my best prediction, and that was it!
However, as I mulled the event over, I realized that in many places, the boss (PM) would have given the VP a date then called me and told me "you damn well better have this done by" that date! I really appreciated the wisdom behind our PM, because if he had done the latter and the date was unreasonable or even the date I gave, at least a part of me would have resented him. As is, I was personally motivated to meet my date (and I did)!
Not sure that is the best analogy, but Trump had many valid points about us paying more than our share of several international endeavors and instead of addressing them with the other players, he unilaterally told them what they must do (or simply reneged on our country's financial commitment). He is no master of the deal, he is used to being surrounded by people who are after his money and will cater to his whelm. That is not a relationship, because those people are in contempt of him (and often, themselves) as they pursue his money. We have seen how that approach plays out among his cabinet members and the books they write!
A gathering with the major European countries to develop a unified plan to address China's theft of intellectual property would have been so much more effective than getting into a nebulous trade war (how are we doing? I can't tell) without any real clear objective!
Sorry, I got on a tirade! I guess this stuff has been building up for too long!
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I watched the link and while she is berating billionaires, I just don't get the same message you seem to be. When I watch it, I see more emphasis on the fact that minimum wage is not a viable income (maybe for a single person sharing an apartment, but if you have kids, forget it).
I think she is naive to consider that the "billionaires" will not use the system to their advantage (although there are a few that have a serious conscience about their employees - Roger Milliken comes to mind). I think the problem needs to be addressed at the minimum wage. If you were to move it to $15 (and I feel that our country has the wealth to pay that to anyone who is giving a honest effort at any full-time job), it would definitely slow the rise/number of billionaires. I expect there would be some trickle-up in salary rates as a result, and the gap between the rich and teh poor in this country would be reduced, which is not a bad thing. Clearly a continued progression to a country divided into the "haves" and the "have-nots" is problematic. I am generally of decent morale character, but if stealing was the only way for me to put food on the table for my family, I would.
People talk about the "trickle down" of giving more money to the wealthy (like Trump's $11 trillion tax cut) creating more jobs and benefiting everyone, but that has not proven to be the fact - a corporation (or a wealthy person) will open a new "factory" when they find a good opportunity, not because they have extra cash laying around (extra liquidity can be its own reward). OTOH, if you raise the minimum wage, you can bet that money will end up in the market in short order! And, if someone making minimum wage actually manages to have enough money and self-discipline to start saving, I think that is also progress as they get "invested" in their society!
So, while I do not agree with AOC coaching things in terms of vilifying/penalizing the wealthy, I do agree that more should be done to make this a good life for honest working folk ... and that invariably will be a "drag" on those with the funds to take action on opportunities that present themselves.
I am also talking about changing the tax laws. When someone like Warren Buffet complains that the system is wrong because his maid pays a higher tax rate than he does, that is a problem! There are way too many loopholes in our system! Many of the tax loopholes have a good idea behind them and have been corrupted in the way people game them. Others were corrupt from the start and lobbied (or otherwise bought) exceptions to the main tax rates.
However, I believe the reality is that the pendulum has swung so far to the right that with the added awareness of (not just white) privilege in our country and the way Trump has been marginalizing the worth of the underprivileged; the pendulum is starting to swing in the other direction.
The election of Trump as president has resulted in an exciting (not always a positive thing) time to be paying attention to the development of our country and the "aftermath" of Trump is likely to be every bit as chaotic as Trump's reign for at least a year or so. I feel pretty good about Biden as the guy to get things calmed back down and restore alliances and our place in the world (to the extent it can be repaired).

Straight out of school, I started working for Georgia Power Company as a "Junior Engineer". This was what is known as heavy construction, with 20,000 people working there around the clock!
One day I got paged to immediately come to the Plant Manager's office, which is freaky in an operation that big with so many levels of hierarchy between us. He had one of the Corporate VPs on the phone waiting for me! They wanted to know when I would have one of my major milestones completed and I gave them my best prediction, and that was it!
However, as I mulled the event over, I realized that in many places, the boss (PM) would have given the VP a date then called me and told me "you damn well better have this done by" that date! I really appreciated the wisdom behind our PM, because if he had done the latter and the date was unreasonable or even the date I gave, at least a part of me would have resented him. As is, I was personally motivated to meet my date (and I did)!
Not sure that is the best analogy, but Trump had many valid points about us paying more than our share of several international endeavors and instead of addressing them with the other players, he unilaterally told them what they must do (or simply reneged on our country's financial commitment). He is no master of the deal, he is used to being surrounded by people who are after his money and will cater to his whelm. That is not a relationship, because those people are in contempt of him (and often, themselves) as they pursue his money. We have seen how that approach plays out among his cabinet members and the books they write!
A gathering with the major European countries to develop a unified plan to address China's theft of intellectual property would have been so much more effective than getting into a nebulous trade war (how are we doing? I can't tell) without any real clear objective!
Sorry, I got on a tirade! I guess this stuff has been building up for too long!
Kurt, I have no idea what you're talking about. If someone told me that I didn't earn what I have, and that I illegitimately "took it", I would be furious. It's nothing but envy.

As for that damned fool Ocasio-Cortez, she thinks it was great that she helped drive Amazon out of her district, after trying to create 25K-40K high-paying jobs there. And Amazon already pays a minimum of $17/hour this year. I guess all of her supporters don't think they'd be qualified for any of those jobs. She also made a damned fool out of herself, nearly Trumpian in this regard, by completely misunderstanding that the $3B Amazon was to get in a corporate tax reduction would be available without Amazon. If I made a gaff like that about speaker cables around here you guys would be all over me, but tax policy from an economics major, oh, that's okay.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Kurt, I have no idea what you're talking about. If someone told me that I didn't earn what I have, and that I illegitimately "took it", I would be furious. It's nothing but envy.

As for that damned fool Ocasio-Cortez, she thinks it was great that she helped drive Amazon out of her district, after trying to create 25K-40K high-paying jobs there. And Amazon already pays a minimum of $17/hour this year. I guess all of her supporters don't think they'd be qualified for any of those jobs. She also made a damned fool out herself, nearly Trumpian in this regard, by completely misunderstanding that the $3B Amazon was to get in a corporate tax reduction would be available without Amazon. If I made a gaff like that about speaker cables around here you guys would be all over me, but tax policy from an economics major, oh, that's okay.
It is a matter of perspective. I get what you are saying and what you are responding to, which is the insulting rhetoric she is using (which has no real benefit and does have a (non-financial) cost).
I am not defending her in the least. What I am saying is that the video you linked is ultimately about the stratification of income that is happening in our country.
She should be talking about lifting up people who are in need rather than insulting the wealthy.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
She should be talking about lifting up people who are in need rather than insulting the wealthy.
Finally, something we can agree on. I knew you had it in you.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
She should be talking about lifting up people who are in need rather than insulting the wealthy.
Finally, something we can agree on. I knew you had it in you.
I actually thought i was kind of repeating myself from the earlier post:
So, while I do not agree with AOC coaching things in terms of vilifying/penalizing the wealthy, I do agree that more should be done to make this a good life for honest working folk
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Kurt, I have no idea what you're talking about. If someone told me that I didn't earn what I have, and that I illegitimately "took it", I would be furious. It's nothing but envy.

As for that damned fool Ocasio-Cortez, she thinks it was great that she helped drive Amazon out of her district, after trying to create 25K-40K high-paying jobs there. And Amazon already pays a minimum of $17/hour this year. I guess all of her supporters don't think they'd be qualified for any of those jobs. She also made a damned fool out herself, nearly Trumpian in this regard, by completely misunderstanding that the $3B Amazon was to get in a corporate tax reduction would be available without Amazon. If I made a gaff like that about speaker cables around here you guys would be all over me, but tax policy from an economics major, oh, that's okay.
I have always wondered why they drove them out. Wouldn't they meaning New York City make more off the 25 to 40k in jobs and the money that those employees would put back into the city and economy then the 3billion tax break would ever cost the city?

Maybe Amazon could come to San Antonio Lol
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I have always wondered why they drove them out. Wouldn't they meaning New York City make more off the 25 to 40k in jobs and the money that those employees would put back into the city and economy then the 3billion tax break would ever cost the city?

Maybe Amazon could come to San Antonio Lol
This is what I mean by pandering to her base. Her base is not professionals or business owners, they are people who oppose gentrification and people who are successful in their neighborhoods. I’ve seen this phenomenon in Oakland, where there were protests against the Google buses transporting the gentrifiers to their jobs in pricey Mountain View. AOC knows where her votes are, even in $3500 suits and $25 lipstick.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Ninja
I'm done trying to convince you of anything. You've already made up your mind, regardless of what I say. You also have a very pre-1990 view of billionaires. The only US billionaire I can think of that fits your list above is Sam Walton, and he's dead.
Hey, it's all good. I didn't really expect to change yours either. :)

That said, I'm not sure what's happened over the last twenty years that has made the average billionaire kinder and gentler, and wealth inequality kept increasing over that period of time. To be clear, I don't believe it's as simple as "you don't make a billion, you take a billion".

The point I was making is that, regarding demonization, the rhetoric and hyperbole she uses pales in comparison with the impolitic vitriol emanating from POTUS. Regardless of whether you agree with her politics, or not, can you not see that?
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Ninja
Kurt, I have no idea what you're talking about. If someone told me that I didn't earn what I have, and that I illegitimately "took it", I would be furious. It's nothing but envy.

As for that damned fool Ocasio-Cortez, she thinks it was great that she helped drive Amazon out of her district, after trying to create 25K-40K high-paying jobs there. And Amazon already pays a minimum of $17/hour this year. I guess all of her supporters don't think they'd be qualified for any of those jobs. She also made a damned fool out of herself, nearly Trumpian in this regard, by completely misunderstanding that the $3B Amazon was to get in a corporate tax reduction would be available without Amazon. If I made a gaff like that about speaker cables around here you guys would be all over me, but tax policy from an economics major, oh, that's okay.
The proposed HQ2 was not going to be in her district. And, Amazon never guaranteed 25,000 jobs. While I won't say she was absolutely right on this, it is most certainly not clear that she was wrong. On the surface, it looked like a no-brainer. But, as such things go, the devil is in the details.

Here's a different perspective.


I've never been a big supporter of subsidizing large corporations to set up shop in any particular locale. To me, if there is no business case to be made without government incentives, then there is no business case. Far too often we see that when the subsidies run out, the company packs up and leaves, or simply collapses.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Field Marshall
It is a matter of perspective. I get what you are saying and what you are responding to, which is the insulting rhetoric she is using (which has no real benefit and does have a (non-financial) cost).
I am not defending her in the least. What I am saying is that the video you linked is ultimately about the stratification of income that is happening in our country.
She should be talking about lifting up people who are in need rather than insulting the wealthy.
I'm in lock step with your last sentence as well. Focus on what you can do to better yourself.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I believe it was $249 million over four years. My impression was that she believes - and she's not the only one - that the cost of more cops will not be paid back with greater fare compliance, and that if there is any investment to be made, it should be in improved service. Plus, she believes POC will be disproportionately targeted by these extra cops - and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that this would happen. I agree that transit has to be paid for. I don't know if more cops is the answer.

I certainly sympathize with the many small landlords caught in the middle of the rent issue. Again, it speaks to the failure of housing policies, not just in NYC, but in cities around the world.
You're right- it is four years, which makes it $124,500 per year per officer. If they're losing enough in fares to justify the cost, they have bigger problems.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
The proposed HQ2 was not going to be in her district. And, Amazon never guaranteed 25,000 jobs. While I won't say she was absolutely right on this, it is most certainly not clear that she was wrong. On the surface, it looked like a no-brainer. But, as such things go, the devil is in the details.

Here's a different perspective.


I've never been a big supporter of subsidizing large corporations to set up shop in any particular locale. To me, if there is no business case to be made without government incentives, then there is no business case. Far too often we see that when the subsidies run out, the company packs up and leaves, or simply collapses.
Okay... you fell for this guy's bullshit.

First of all, there's the author of this op-ed. Pete "cancel rent" Harrison. He's a community organizer in the area Amazon would have been building in, who has a constituency that would be cancelled by Amazon bringing in tens of thousands of jobs paying an average of $150K per year. He's another anti-gentrification guy. Look at his Twitter page:


Second, Harrison is mis-positioning the document he quotes. The document he points to expecting to see promises in is in fact an MOU, a memorandum of understanding. It is not a contract. The contract comes later after further negotiations. New York is experienced in these agreements to entice companies to come to a union-dominated state, as they just recently learned from their experience with Tesla in Buffalo. Cuomo is not as stupid as Harrison makes him out to be.

The entire op-ed is propaganda aimed at supporting an agenda for a socialist, anti-free enterprise, pro-union leftist. Of course he's going to hate a highly successful corporation that would in a matter of years turn the area prosperous, eliminate his constituency, and turn them into free enterprise advocates. How horrible for him! But now he's safe. Amazon went elsewhere, so he can continue building political power based on a lack of prosperity.
 
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GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Ninja
Okay... you fell for this guy's bullshit.

First of all, there's the author of this op-ed. Pete "cancel rent" Harrison. He's a community organizer in the area Amazon would have been building in, who has a constituency that would be cancelled by Amazon bring in tens of thousands of jobs paying an average of $150K per year. He's another anti-gentrification guy. Look at his Twitter page:


Second, Harrison is mis-positioning the document he quotes. The document he points to expecting to see promises in is in fact an MOU, a memorandum of understanding. It is not a contract. The contract comes later after further negotiations. New York is experienced in these agreements to entice companies to come to a union-dominated state, as they just recently learned from their experience with Tesla in Buffalo. Cuomo is not as stupid as Harrison makes him out to be.

The entire op-ed is propaganda aimed at supporting an agenda for a socialist, anti-free enterprise, pro-union leftist. Of course he's going to hate a highly successful corporation that would in a matter of years turn the area prosperous, eliminate his constituency, and turn them into free enterprise advocates. How horrible for him! But now he's safe. Amazon went elsewhere, so he can continue building political power based on a lack of prosperity.
Hey, I didn't say I endorsed his position, I said it was a different perspective.

I'm still sceptical of such deals, in principle. We've all seen far too many such arrangements go pear-shaped. This one might or might not have been different. I guess we'll never know.

How do you feel about government subsidies to entice employers to set up shop in any particular location?
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
How do you feel about government subsidies to entice employers to set up shop in any particular location?
I am philosophically against subsidies. I think they represent a distortion in the national economy. Sometimes, however, state and/or local tax laws were not written to accommodate industries that were not foreseen when the laws were written, and it's too much trouble to change the laws. For example, though Intel is one of the companies that gave Silicon Valley its name, Intel's largest site, in terms of employees and investment, is in Hillsboro, Oregon. Unfortunately, Oregon's tax laws are not conducive to building chip fabs worth $10B+ apiece, so Intel gets huge tax abatements from Oregon state and local governments, or they threaten to go elsewhere. The tax laws are antiquated, but changing them would take who-knows-how-long, so the stupidity continues:

intels-oregon-tax-breaks-are-among-the-nations-biggest-new-report-finds.html

I don't know how to solve these problems, but there are multiple reasons why, for example, new Mercedes SUVs and C-class cars are assembled in Alabama and not Michigan or New York. If New York wanted that Tesla solar roofing plant they had to pay.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic General
...
I'm still sceptical of such deals, in principal. [A fun misspelling :cool: ] We've all seen far too many such arrangements go pear-shaped. This one might or might not have been different. I guess we'll never know.
...
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Ninja
I am philosophically against subsidies. I think they represent a distortion in the national economy. Sometimes, however, state and/or local tax laws were not written to accommodate industries that were not foreseen when the laws were written, and it's too much trouble to change the laws. For example, though Intel is one of the companies that gave Silicon Valley its name, Intel's largest site, in terms of employees and investment, is in Hillsboro, Oregon. Unfortunately, Oregon's tax laws are not conducive to building chip fabs worth $10B+ apiece, so Intel gets huge tax abatements from Oregon state and local governments, or they threaten to go elsewhere. The tax laws are antiquated, but changing them would take who-knows-how-long, so the stupidity continues:

intels-oregon-tax-breaks-are-among-the-nations-biggest-new-report-finds.html

I don't know how to solve these problems, but there are multiple reasons why, for example, new Mercedes SUVs and C-class cars are assembled in Alabama and not Michigan or New York. If New York wanted that Tesla solar roofing plant they had to pay.
Well, that's something we can agree on.

I should add though, sometimes government intervention is warranted, such as FDR's New Deal. But, that's not quite the same as bribing profitable companies.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I don't know how to solve these problems, but there are multiple reasons why, for example, new Mercedes SUVs and C-class cars are assembled in Alabama and not Michigan or New York. If New York wanted that Tesla solar roofing plant they had to pay.
Taxes, local wages, may be non-union, possibly lower cost of living driving wages, lower energy cost, probably need to make payoffs in Michigan and NY......
 

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