beginner advice

[pedwinkles]

I am both very new at home theater stuff and relatively broke. My wife and I are grad students so we can save up for some equipment but there are other priorities in our lives (food, mostly). I am in some serious need of help and this forum is just about the most supportive place I've seen on the internets. Thanks in advance! Onto the current setup:

I have a JVC RX-7030 which i bought a few years ago from a sketchy online retailer on clearance. I since discovered that it was a refurb. However, I have no idea how good or bad it is because I've got some pretty terrible speakers. My best speakers (which I use for L and R) are Fisher ST-830s (floor speakers, 100 watts per channel, 15 inch woofers). They were my mother's are as old as I am. Go ahead and laugh now, it only gets worse. My surrounds are Fisher STV-827s. The center WAS a 50 watt Fisher speaker. It has recently passed on to department store speaker heaven. The center and surrounds came from thrift stores over the last few years. The sound I got from this setup was pretty terrible. The only highlight was the bass, which was good enough for me since I live in an apartment and can't rattle the whole place.

The room is 11ft by 18ft with the television in the middle of one long wall and the couch on the long wall directly opposite it. My wife and I mainly play video games (Xbox 360, so surround sound), watch television, and occasionally watch movies or listen to music. Our budget is (or will be in the next two months) about 300 bucks tops. We would prefer bookshelf speakers due to space considerations.

Basically, should we keep the receiver and buy a prepackaged 5.1 set? Should we go for a matching set of bookshelf speakers and a center and keep a couple of the crappy (but booming) floor speakers as surrounds and route the bass through those? Should we chuck it all and get a home theater in a box? Are there other options that I have not thought of?

All of my research so far has just turned up the fact that I'm terrible at this. We're going to be in grad school for about six more years and I'd like to have a livable system until then, at which point I might go get a big, shiny, expensive setup. Any advice on specific speakers/packages would be greatly appreciated. Again, thanks in advance!

P.S. I should point out that I'm not above used/refurb equipment (if that wasn't already obvious from the above descriptions!). If that'll net me a slightly more reasonable setup I'm more than happy to buy used.

 

[jamie2112]

Hi and welcome .There are quite alot of speakers in that price range for you to choose from. There is a thread here that is about the best $250 speakers for the money. That may be a good place to start. Also your local Craigslist is a good place to look as well. Your receiver will be fine until you get done school. It is 100 watts a channel and you don't need another at the moment. The speakers are the important part. Check these out. They are 20 more than your budget but with free shipping....http://store.audioholics.com/product/1674/19/emp-ef30-bookshelf-speakers--pair-

 

[zumbo]

Welcome.

A 5.1 surround system consists of a front left and right speaker, a center speaker, a surround left and right speaker, and a powered sub. The sub is the .1 of the 5.1. The bass should be routed to the sub only.

Plop those Fishers on ebay to get your budget up.

Your receiver will work fine for now.

$300 is not going to do much for speakers. You can get away with just buying the front three, and a powered sub. If you don't want to part with the Fishers, then you can use a pair for surrounds.

$109.88 pair shipped
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-DV62si-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00006JPDI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1225029732&sr=1-1

$61.99 shipped
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-DV-62CLRS-Channel-Speaker/dp/B00009WBYL/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1225029732&sr=1-2

$112.20 shipped
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-AMERICA-V-80-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B00009WBYK/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1225030149&sr=1-8

$284.07 total.

I would highly recommend selling your current speakers, and use the money for a better center and sub.

Better center:
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-DV-62CLRS-Channel-Speaker/dp/B00009WBYL/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1225030149&sr=1-2

Better subs:
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-V1020-Down-Firing-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B0000Y2WY8/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1225030149&sr=1-7
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-430-Watt-Down-Firing-Subwoofer/dp/B0000Y2WYS/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1225030149&sr=1-4

 

[FirstReflection]

Hello and welcome

Your receiver should be fine for now.

Just a quick suggestion for the physical layout of your setup: try to pull your couch away from the wall behind it. Having about 3 feet or more from the back of your head to the wall behind you would be best for your audio, but even if you can get just 1-2 feet of distance from the back wall, that will improve the sound you hear as compared to having the couch right up against the wall (which is what most people have ). Most people don't notice just how much sound is reflected off of the wall behind them! When you put a gap between the wall and the couch, you get a fair amount of that reflected sound being absorbed by the back of the couch now, rather than being reflected directly back into your ears - which muddies the sound and makes dialogue more difficult to understand.

That done, I would really highly recommend the Onkyo SKS-HT540 speaker package to you!

At $250 from Amazon, it certainly fits within your budget. This is not a "dream" system, of course at this price. But it's remarkably good for this little money and what I like most about it is that, while inexpensive, the speakers are still a genuinely good, basic design. So many inexpensive speakers these days are terrible from an audio design standpoint because the only goal is "fashion" looks and tiny size. These Onkyo speakers are actually pretty big compared to a lot of other speakers, but their design is genuinely decent from an audio standpoint and every penny went into doing the best possible design for the sound and not the looks at this low price point.

The included 10" sub actually packs some decent punch. More important though the bookshelf speakers play low enough that they blend really well with the subwoofer. Overall, this is absolutely the best sound you can get at this low price point and I consider this SKS-HT540 package to be a terrific "foot in the door" system and one that will keep you happy until you are able to afford a full blown "dream" system

You'll note that this is actually a 7.1 speaker package. Obviously, for your setup, you don't need or want to have the 6th and 7th speakers behind you. Stick to using just 5 speakers and the sub for now. But you could always use the spare 6th and 7th speakers in the bedroom or something

Finally, when living in an apartment, what usually gets complaints is the bass. What a lot of people don't realize though is that the bass the neighbors hear is mostly structure-borne bass and not bass travelling through the air. In other words, with the subwoofer sitting directly on the floor, it actually couples to the floor and physically shakes the floor structure. Structure-borne transmission of the sound is what makes bass so easy to hear all through the entire building!

So if you want to reduce complaints and make it so that you can actually use the subwoofer properly and hear some bass in your room, what you need to do is decouple the subwoofer from the floor. If you're willing to spend $50 and spend your full $300 budget, I can VERY highly recommend getting an Auralex GRAMMA to put beneath your subwoofer and decouple it from the floor.

A lot of people wonder, "do I really need a decoupling device when I'm using a low cost sub?"

The answer is - yes...even more so, in fact!

A lower cost sub typically has less internal bracing, it's often lighter in weight and it's often somewhat less optimized in its design. In other words, inexpensive subs tend to shake and flex more than expensive subs and that means they shake the floor beneath them just as much or more!

Decoupling your subwoofer makes such a huge difference, not just to the sound you hear yourself, but to reducing the bothersome bass that your neighbors hear. It's worth every last penny of the money you pay, but I could understand if you feel $50 is, percentage wise, too much to pay for use with a $250 speaker package. It's totally worth it, IMO, but I could understand.

So if the GRAMMA is a no go for you, you can still try to decouple the subwoofer with some other means. Placing a couple of mouse pads under each foot of the subwoofer works pretty well to decouple the sub. You can also use any sort of rubber pad - like the kind they have on a gym floor. Basically, you just want something that will act as a physical buffer between the subwoofer and the floor

Best of luck!

 

[pedwinkles]

Thanks for your replies!

Jamie, I took your advice and I've been crawling through the threads on budget speakers again today. The suggestions given to others seems overwhelming! A few of them are in (or almost in) my budget. One that I see has been tossed around is the Behrenger B2030P studio monitors. Anyone have any advise on these? I never thought of using studio monitors before, but I would not be against it. WmAx seems to recommend them but I cannot find a huge amount of information on them.

Zumbo, thanks for the recommendation. BIC America DV62si's are along the lines of what I am looking for and the brand name seems to be well-respected (I've never heard of it before). So that's two speakers on my list of possibilities...

Firstreflection, I am going to keep that Onkyo set in mind in case I decide to go with a packaged set of speakers. Unfortunately, due to the weird shape of our room, the couch cannot be pulled from the wall. The space between our chaise lounge and the tv is already restrictive. I'll be keeping that advice in mind when searching for future apartments though! Plus, my receiver is technically capable of 6.1 channel sound so I'd love to have space behind the couch to allow for that sixth channel someday. Also, no matter what I end up with I'll definitely work on getting something for decoupling the sub as you suggest.

I am leaning towards getting pairs of bookshelf speakers (like the Behrengers or BIC ones mentioned above) in phases. I think I'd be able to buy one set and a powered sub at first and then pick up two more sets of the speakers in the next few months. From what I have been reading, it would be a better idea to just get another bookshelf speaker identical to what I'll be using for the L and R channels for the center. Is that right? Does that even matter if I'm buying something this low-end? As I said above, my receive is capable of 6.1 so I could always use the extra speaker as a rear surround someday when space in a future apartment permits. If I go this route (two sets of identical bookshelf speakers) can I go cheaper on the surrounds? Would it be advisable just to get a third set of identical bookshelf speakers for surrounds? I like this idea from an aesthetic standpoint but it would delay my finishing the setup a little longer. What do you guys think? Are there other bookshelf speakers that I should consider in the 100-130 dollar/pair price range? Thanks again!

 

[jamie2112]

The Behringers are very nice for the cost. They need a sub but they sound really nice. They are very nuetral sounding and are pretty accurate as well. They would be a good choice. There are alot of things in your price range, it can be overwhelming at times to choose something. I have heard the behringers and they sound really nice and are recommended buy some very knowlegable people....

 

[pedwinkles]

OH I just remembered. Another n00b question. I saw someone mention in another post somewhere that the BICs are backported. Both the right channel and right surround will be actually sitting on a real bookshelf (I'm so old fashioned lol). I can keep books a few inches away on either side but there will be books above and below the speakers. Does it matter if the speaker is backported in this situation? Are there other concerns I should have about setting the speakers up this way? I don't really have a choice but I can take whatever steps necessary to improve the situation.

Thanks for the (extremely) prompt reply Jamie! I'm leaning towards the Behrengers right now. Would I be best served to just get three pairs of them or are there better options for surrounds and center?

 

[bandphan]

The behringr 2030p would be a god choice to throw in, at 130 a pair Add a dayton or cadence sub and you would have a very capable little system.

 

[WmAx]

The Behringers represent a very unique product for the money spent. The price is deceptive. Priced at $400-$500/pair and covered with real veneer, they would happily compete with and exceed many speakers in this pri-fange.They have a very even(relatively speaking) response, low distortion, excellent power handling and an extraordinary off axis response; they sound the same even through the treble at extreme off axis listening angles. This may not matter to you - you think - but the truth is that the off axis response reflects on the walls and the reflected room 'echo/reverb' mixes back with the direct sound you hear in a sub-conscious process. When these two signal sources match as close as possible, the brain interprets it as higher sound quality. This is not my opinion; it is th conclusion based on credible scientific tests using hundreds of human subjects comparing speakers with different on and off axis patterns. The speaker also has a flat bass response. This is in contrast to many bookshelf speaker that have an exaggerated bass around 80-100Hz to make them seem to have more bass then they really do - this is a coloration though - not accurate. The beringer is absolutely flat in this range.

Now, let's move beyond the speakers response/measurements. It has a raw build quality that is not found on speakers costing less than 500 a pair or more normally. It has a huge motor on the mid-woofer, and cast alloy frames(no plastic or stamped steel). It has a relatively small 0.75" MDF side walls and back cabinet with 1.25" thick MDF front. Compared to 0.625" more popular MDF construction for smaller speakers like this, and with same 0.625" thick front baffle. The crossover in the 2030P used MKT film capacitors and very heavy guage iron cored inductors for very high power capacity without saturation. Compare this to typical electrolytic capacitors(not time stable - they degrade) and low gauge inductors(distort and change response at high power input levels). Very unusual build quality for its price.

-Chis

 

[pedwinkles]

Thanks WmAx and bandphan! I'm pretty much sold on the Behringers for all six channels at this point. Now all i have to do is figure out what sub to get. Time to dig through previous threads again. I was considering a Dayton sub, but people seem to refer to them as "one note wonders" and I'd like to listen to music on this system regularly. I've also read where the Dayton sub gets boomy if the crossover is set above about 60hz, and the Behringers only claim to go down to 75hz at best. I'm going to try to look into the Cadence sub some more. Other suggestions are always welcome! Looks like I'm going to be saving up for a while on this one...

 

[bandphan]

Thanks WmAx and bandphan! I'm pretty much sold on the Behringers for all six channels at this point. Now all i have to do is figure out what sub to get. Time to dig through previous threads again. I was considering a Dayton sub, but people seem to refer to them as "one note wonders" and I'd like to listen to music on this system regularly. I've also read where the Dayton sub gets boomy if the crossover is set above about 60hz, and the Behringers only claim to go down to 75hz at best. I'm going to try to look into the Cadence sub some more. Other suggestions are always welcome! Looks like I'm going to be saving up for a while on this one...

IMO getting a unit like the berhinger dcx2496 to use as a crossover/eq for the front three and sub/s would solve issues or concerns you have.

 

[pedwinkles]

Bandphan, my receiver does have some sort of eq built in although I haven't really messed with it before. Would that help me at all? I think if I were to get an eq like that (the Behringer), I'd rather just buy a nicer subwoofer for the money.

I've been doing a ton of reading on these budget subs. It seems that the Dayton subs are the best value (and are conveniently the cheapest). Also, from what a few people have said, they are constructed well enough to be worth upgrading. That sounds like fun to me as I am an avid DIY junkie when it comes to non-HT stuff. I would love to buy one of these and then upgrade the driver later. Would that possibly reduce boominess or is it not necessarily inherent to the driver? Could it possibly be cabinet dimensions or something else not really fixable? I can insulate the inside and replace the driver, but I'd rather not replace the amp or change out the box as that would defeat the purpose of buying a cheaper sub. Any opinions?

 

[bandphan]

Auto/manual EQ in avrs are anywhere from poor to good. The dcx can give you exact control at a reasonable price. Room measurments need to be taken to fully maximize its capabilites, freeware like REW would be recommendeed.

As for the subs, thats up to you. Check Andrews post in the DYI for for some great builds.

 

[pedwinkles]

Bandphan: Ok that definitely makes sense. I do not believe my receiver has monitor outs or anything and it definitely does not have an external processor loop that I can find mention of in the manual. Wouldn't I have to get a different receiver and possibly external amps in order to use the dcx2496 properly?

Thanks again for sticking with me and not getting too annoyed by newb questions. I greatly appreciate all the help!

As far as I can tell, even if I get the speakers and sub and no extra equipment to tune everything properly, the sound will probably be a thousand times better than what i've currently got. Plus I'll be able to add the dcx and any other necessary stuff later to make it even better. That's pretty exciting!

 

[pedwinkles]

Bump. I think these (above) are my last questions for now. As I assemble this system, I'll try to post back to let people know how I like it as reference for the next newbie with similar questions.

 

[Phil Taylor]

Just a suggestion/question but would it be possible for you to place your TV along a short wall and move your sofa to "turn your room around" 90 degrees? It's normally best for sightlines and soundfield to have your display and mains on a short wall. That could possibly give you a bit more room behind your sofa for your surrounds. Just a thought...

 

[pedwinkles]

I wish I could Phil. There is a "build-in entertainment center" in this apartment a.k.a. the stairway comes up through the living room and they just boxed it in, taking away a chunk of the middle of the living room along a long wall. This setup is not ideal, but the lease is up in 9 months and I'll be hunting for an apartment which will be more ideal then. With all the stuff my wife and I still have to buy and our student budget, it'll probably take us a good deal of that time to assemble even the modestly priced system that we're going for. Thanks for your input though!