Battle of the Sonys - Part 1

N

norberth

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>Hello again Steve and all,

Your clarifications are very welcome but I have a couple of questions for you.
We may all agree here that in Europe the DA5ES is called VA555ES. How come Home Cinema Choice (well respected british magazine) mentions in its review of the above mentioned receiver that the transformer is ... BANDO?
Here is the article I'm talking about ...
Why is it that the mentioned DSP chips are SONY's 2 x CXD9616 (same as in DA4ES) and one CXD9617 (CXD9718 in the DA4ES)? Is the European version different from the American one?

Just wondering ...</font>
 
S

steve

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Greetings folks,

I really want to point out a few things about the Battle of the Sony article that seems to be misunderstood. &nbsp;First of all, just about any review you read that has an opinion in it, is based on some subjectivity on behalf of the author. &nbsp;No matter if it's in a magazine or on the Internet. &nbsp;When I wrote this article, there is indeed some subjectivity in it as well. &nbsp;However, there are also sound Engineering principals, and they may not be explained enough in the article as to cause some confusion among this forum.

For example, we did not elaborate on how we conducted the test, and so I understand why some of you may doubt the results. &nbsp;For that reason, I wish to elaborate in this forum.

Room Acoustics
The room we conducted the listening study in, was acoustically dampened by use of sound panels. &nbsp;Sound panels were placed throughout the room in an effort to eliminate echo. &nbsp;This allows for quantifiable detection of even the most minor sound variations as they are not lost in bad room acoustics. &nbsp;

Speaker System
The speakers used to test the Processors/Receivers, are a top line set of upgraded LSE speakers form RBH that include their high end, Status Acoustic Drivers. &nbsp;These speakers are the most accurate, flat speakers we have found in their class and we've been using them for a base line reference system for 3 years. &nbsp;We are extremely familiar with the sound characteristics of these speakers as we've listened to countless audio tracks with them. &nbsp;This helps us recognize even minor differences in the sound characteristics between different processors/receivers placed in this set up.

Audio Tracks
We played a variety of different formats, from 2-channel CD's, DVD-Audio, DTS, SACD and so forth. &nbsp;We listened to a number of songs and movie sound tracks, on countless speakers and Home Theater systems. &nbsp;All of the ears present and listening during this test, were familiar with the sound characteristics of each song or sound track and therefore, were able to determine any minor differences.

Procedures
During this comparison, we then spent countless hours switching back and forth between each unit and paying meticulous attention to the sound quality of each track, from the vocals, studio acoustics, instruments and so on, all in an effort to hear any minor sound difference between units. &nbsp;We played these tracks over and over again, switching back and forth between units, and there were definite differences in the level of details we heard in each set up, as discussed in the article.

Conclusion
Keeping in mind that the test was conducted in an ideal environment, with top of the line equipment. &nbsp;The group of people conducting the test all agreed that there were subtle sound differences (with the amount of detail, dynamics and so forth) between each unit, as discussed in the article. &nbsp;

As some of you go out and purchase these units, you will place them in completely different rooms (no-sound panels, for example), use them on completely different speakers, and may not even use an amplifier. &nbsp;That being the case, the differences in performance will be even more subtle than what we heard in the 'perfect' set up of our reference system.

No one should read this article and expect to A/B these units together and hear a difference that will be like comparing an alarm clock radio to a Yamaha Z1. &nbsp;The differences are subtle as indicated above.

Personally, if it were me buying a unit, I would go for the one that offered improved performance in an ideal test set up, instead of worrying about having two mono center channel speakers. &nbsp;

That’s what went into this article. &nbsp;We admit that there is some subjectivity in our article, but we tried to minimize it with sound testing procedures. &nbsp;Thank you all for reading.

Cheers,
Stevie D</font>
 
T

turbo56k

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
Guest : I need help in the setup, PLEASE HELP.
- Look like I need to adjust the EQ in order to get the better sounding?
- Can we assign each EQ setting to each individual source?
- Why I need to turn the Sony volume halfway when I listen to the music but only 3/10 of my yamaha( 85W/ch). Is it because the sony has the digital control? fine tune?
- Does it has both DPL and DPL2? I don't see it shows DPL2 but just DPL light up.
- When watching the movie in 5.1 DD/DTS what DSP should I use or just press AFD? normal surroundsound?
- Should I set: Cinema Studio Ex. A,B,C when watching 5.1 DD/DTS movie?

Thanks alot.
Hi,

According to the manual if you want to play DPL II you have to choose normal surround and than press "surround" button on the from panel use the scroll to choose the desired surround mode.

If you set ADF for 5.1 source, you're only getting the straight or pure 5.1 recording. However if you choose cinema ex etc..... it will take the 5.1 source and re-create a different ambience, often sounds better than ADF IMHO. I personally prefer Virtual Multi Rear for action movie because it really helps the rear to difuse the sound, cant really tell where the speakers are, and Cinema Ex C for drama or movies involve alot of dialogues.

Regards,
Turbo56k</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Today I just found out one thing that the Sony ES doesn't do which is I really need it: keeps the last video source if I switch to audio only source. Which means I can't watch the sat, tv while someone else listens to the radio or cd. I set the "V pwer" to "always on" still doesn't help.
Please confirm.
Soooo
</font>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
S

steve

Audioholic
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
Guest : <font color='#000000'> - Here is what my Dad complained about:
   - not as loud as the old one
   - difficult to navigate the source since it doesn't has the pointer on the LCD to tell which way to go.
   - the tuner preset buttons are so thin and difficult to access if the front pannel door is close.
 
Also the manual is not that great.</font>
<font color='#000000'>ctransj,

I have to agree with you and your dad about navigating through the Sony menues. &nbsp;Both the 5ES and the 4ES are challenging to set up, and the remotes are no picknick to use either. &nbsp;I especially don't like the fact that you can't change speaker level volumes on the fly. &nbsp;

It does get better, though, if you use the on-screen display, instead of just the remote, and you may even consider buying a different, hometheater remote and programing some macros.

You are also correct in stating that the Sony manual isn't great. &nbsp;Almost every Sony product I own seems to be that way. &nbsp;They tech support staff is a big help at times, so you may want to call them and ask some questions.

Cheers!</font>
 
G

GermanMan

Enthusiast
<font color='#000000'>Let me say that after having read the Sony 9000/4 comparison article, I need to be a bit critical of it on several fronts.

Not only the giant error on the weight of the two units, and the actual analysis and conclusion based on that mistaken information, but other grammatical errors in the article itself lead me to believe that this article was not properly proof-read and the technical analysis is suspect. &nbsp;If you have the two units in house, the way to compare the weights is to get a balance and actually weigh the two units and not rely on either the manuals or some figures you got from somewhere.

The impression I received as I read the article was one that the reviewers clearly favored the 9000 series and their technology and had a clear bias against the 4/7 series right from the start. &nbsp;Whether that bias is justified and correct is unknown, but it certainly taints the reasoning and conclusions in the article.

The technical analysis is totally unconvincing from an engineering standpoint. &nbsp;

Power Supplies: in the article the ratings are stated as 15,000 milli-Farads (that is what mF means) and in the discussion earlier, they are now rated at 15,000 micro-Farads (which would be 15 milli-Farads). &nbsp;Proofreading? &nbsp;Which is correct? &nbsp;In any case, the purpose of the capacitors, and the power supply itself, is to deliver stable, clean power to the rest of the circuitry. &nbsp;IF the power supply does that properly, then the nature of the components used to do this is of no concern. &nbsp;Using expensive brand name capacitors compared to less expensive brand capacitors does not mean the power is cleaner at the other end. &nbsp;After all, a capacitor is a very simple device - it stores charge and releases it. &nbsp;While the quality of a capacitors ingredients and construction may affect the temperature stability and current delivering ability of the unit, if the cheapest capacitor on the market will do the job, then you gain nothing by using a more expensive capacitor other than bragging that you have more expensive capacitors in your box. &nbsp;It was not clear from the article the capacitors, or the winding on the transformers made any difference - in fact, the review did indicate that the quality of the audio, under a silent signal, was just as expected -silent. &nbsp;No hum, hiss, etc. &nbsp;It would seem that the power supply and the electrical isolation of the 4ES does the job. &nbsp;The technology of the time of the 5ES or 9000 series design may have demanded more expensive components, or those components are just overkill.

On vibration - much was made about the lack of absorbing material on many of the parts in the 4ES. &nbsp;I'm not familiar with the intricacies of audiophile components, however, from an electrical standpoint, I fail to see HOW a vibration in a solid-state component could in any way, translate into an acoustical signal effect on the output side. &nbsp;Whether the case lid dings and rings or just goes thump when you flick it with your finger really would appear to be irrelevant in a unit that is a digital signal processor where such vibrations, in my mind, have no effect on the signal quality. &nbsp;While turntables and other sources that require mechanical interfaces to extract/deliver sound clearly can suffer from the transfer of vibration, in digital processing systems, the data is a pure digital data stream until the point that it is converted to an analog signal. &nbsp;This happens in pre-amp at the outputs or on the input side, you have some analog signal until it’s converted by an ADC into digital data for processing. &nbsp;Even in the analog form, I cannot see how the signal is affected by vibration. &nbsp;Are you telling me the movement of an electrical wire will affect the signal it is transmitting? &nbsp;I am skeptical but very much open to any engineering information to the contrary. &nbsp;I may be missing some vital knowledge here, so please educate me.

On to the processors: SHARC vs. RISC. &nbsp;RISC is indeed a processor with a limited number of machine instructions constrained by the fact that each instruction MUST be able to be executed within a defined limit - say one processor clock cycle. &nbsp;This means each instruction runs as quickly as is possible on the hardware level. &nbsp;Any higher-level instructions missing from a CISC processor can still be accomplished by executing several RISC instructions. &nbsp;RISC processing is more efficient processing at the cpu level - it has distinct advantages when properly applied to the correct problems. &nbsp;SHARC, as described is a specialized processor architecture for special processing applications. &nbsp;I would conclude that SHARC is even more specialized for digital audio signal processing than the more general purpose RISC processor. &nbsp;Now, is one preferable to the other? &nbsp;Not if they both do the job. &nbsp;If the necessary processing of the digital signal to perform the ‘massaging’ of the data stream can be accomplished in the time frame allowed by the RISC processor, then nothing can be gained by using a more dedicated SHARC processor. &nbsp;It is digital data and if you take 6 and multiply it by 7, it makes absolutely no difference if I do it on my old 386 or use IBM's DEEP BLUE supercomputer, the result is still 42 (although there was that one problem on the original Pentiums from Intel (CISC processors) where that may have actually resulted in 42.0000012345 ;) Just kidding.) &nbsp;However, digital signal processing in these components IS a real-time effort. &nbsp;The data stream comes in one end and goes out the other end at a fixed clock frequency to feed the digital-to-analog converts. &nbsp;Any processing of the digital stream MUST be finished on any sample or sequence of samples of the digital audio data stream within the time allotted to it. &nbsp;This means that a more specialized processor certainly could, and I would expect, SHOULD be able perform more processing on a digital data stream within a given time window than a general RISC processor. &nbsp;However, the question is - is it needed. &nbsp;The only way to answer if the SHARC vs. RISC solutions from Sony are different in terms of quality is to look at the source code for the algorithms that do the processing on the SHARC and RISC units in conjunction with those processor specifications. &nbsp;IF the RISC solution uses some short cuts or does not process the signal to the same 'resolution' as the SHARC processor, then there could be some loss in processing ability of the RISC vs. the SHARC engines. &nbsp;However, I'd imagine such detailed analysis was not performed (since apparently the units could not even be disassembled enough to identify the processor on the bottom of the board)- nor would I expect it to be performed. &nbsp;But to suggest that on the surface, the SHARC system is better than the RISC system is misleading. &nbsp;Any differences in the acoustic output may well come from any other number of subsystems in the unit other than the processors. &nbsp;Without a detailed analysis, it is just not possible to make that call. &nbsp;Saying that SHARC systems are better than RISC systems is not sound on an engineering basis -they may well both be performing the same data manipulation?

About 7.1- First off, let me say that every single channel is MONO (we all know that, right?). &nbsp;Each speaker is a 'mono channel speaker'. &nbsp;The 4ES's 7.1 processing provides a left and a right rear channel speaker output, where as 6.1 provides only a single rear channel output. &nbsp;The review states that you only get the same signal sent to the two speakers, so you are not getting discrete signal on the two rear channels. &nbsp;The question I've had for a while and that is not answered by the review is, what is the capacity of the system in terms of separate right and left rear channels. &nbsp;If fed with a 6.1 channel signal that only has one rear channel, then, of course, that same signal is sent to both rear channels on a 7.1 setup. &nbsp;However, is the 4ES capable of sending two different signals to the two rear channels or is the hardware wired such that you will always only get the same signal to both the rear channel speakers? &nbsp;IF the digital DTS audio stream comes in as a 7.1 encoded signal, carrying 2 separate rear channels, will the 4ES reproduce them correctly? After all, DTS does define a 7.1 signal (http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.6.2). &nbsp;Just because no current DVD media includes it does not mean it will not show up. &nbsp;Of course, just because we may foolishly buy a 7.1 capable system today, does not mean we will ever be able to use that feature. &nbsp;There may never be DTS 7.1 media with two different rear channels. However the question remains, IF the DTS signal contains 7.1 info - that is two different rear channel signals - then will the 4ES decode them properly and thus provide two different signals on the rear outputs? &nbsp;This is a 'bet' people have to decide for themselves if they want to make it. &nbsp;Since I only buy a new unit every 10 years or so, if there has been a technological advance this is a decision I will need to make in the near future.

Connectors - I would imagine that most users would set up their systems and pretty much leave them alone. &nbsp;Optical digital connections are in no way inferior to coax digital. &nbsp;Also, the 9000ES does not provide any Component Video support (and so the lack of on screen display over component video is really a mute point). &nbsp;Component video switching (no processing here) may be of interest to those who will be using a component video out from their dvd players as well as from a dish receiver or HDTV tuner in the future.

About the audio quality perceived by the reviewers, I wonder how much of that difference may be related to feeling comfortable with the established system they have had for a while. &nbsp;It is clear that the reviewers felt there was a difference in the two systems output. &nbsp;Which is better, that’s a different question. &nbsp;If someone has listened to the sound from a 9000ES system for many years that can become familiar and any new feel or change to the sound can be considered substandard. &nbsp;However, different does not equate to wrong. &nbsp;Each person has their own tastes and as the reviewers rightly pointed out, each home setup will be different and so it is indeed a personal choice as to which system one feels happy with. &nbsp;Auditioning a system at HOME in the proper room where it will be used is the ideal solution - but we cannot always do that. &nbsp;To some, the 'correct' way to listen to something is as the original composer/mixer/studio/director/artist intended it to be. &nbsp;If I can get the system to put out the same signals the studios put into the source, I'm happy. &nbsp;Others want to tune the studio source to their specific listening preferences. &nbsp;So long as YOU, the listener are happy, that is all that counts.

In all, the review seemed biased from the beginning and as it approached each step of the analysis and the explanations themselves were unconvincing on a technical level. &nbsp;All in all I think I ended up with MORE questions in my mind than less after reading the review. &nbsp;I would say it was not very helpful and only serves to make owners or buyers of the 9000ES feel good. &nbsp;Whether that result is justified is not answered.


Finally let me say that I may have made mistakes in my assesments in this post, so if anyone finds an error, please do post about it.

For what its worth, to those who might care to know: I hold a Bachelors degree in Computer Engineering, a Masters in Electrical Engineering a PhD in Computer Science and am an licensed Professional Engineer in the field of Electrical Engineering in the United States. &nbsp;I am not an audiophile nor do I dig deeply into the technical details of audio or video equipment until such time as I need to make a purchasing decision - such as in the near future. &nbsp;I do, however, like to make very informed purchases and purchase the right equipment for the money I spend. &nbsp;I will buy a $50 Timex or $200 Casio watch with the latest technological features and will never spend several thousands of dollars on a Rolex or similar watch - which I'd feel I'd have to use the rest of my life. &nbsp; This way I can take advantage of the latest that technology has to offer.</font>
 
S

steve

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Good post and lots of details.  I'm going to need some time to digest all this and respond.  There are some issues you bring up that I don't necessarily agree with, but there are some good points in your write up that I do.  Perhaps the review isn't clear in some of these details.

I'll try to answer soon.  Thanks for the post.

Oh, I realize each channel is mono, thats what a single channel is.  What I am trying to state is that the two center rear channels (7.1) in the 4ES are the same signal.  They have descrete amplifiers, but they are not descrete, seperate channels.  They simply run a mono-signal to each of the speakers. That being the case, I personally question the necessity of having two rear centers with the same exact sound coming from them.  Again, I point out that if you have quality rear surround speakers that image well, the rears should sound as full as one would wish.  Just my though.

Also, the capacitors in the power supply are rated in micro-farads (obviously), not milli-farads. &nbsp;The typo is due to conversion from a .doc file to HTML and will be fixed soon. &nbsp;Thanks for the reminder.</font>
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
<font color='#000000'>First of all, it seems I have to correct both of you gents.
A 5.1 DD/DTS soundtrack is not composed of any 'mono' channels.  Each channel is discrete containing its own mixed part of the master soundtrack.
6.1 or 7.1, are basically identical, only 7.1 offers two rear amps to feed two speakers, instead of one, with the EXACT same signal.  DTS ES does offer the ability for an additional discrete rear channel, hence 6.1,7.1, but there is hardly any software yet available with that format.  Thus DD EX, which is a far more common format for DVD, offers a non discrete rear channel that is matrixed off of the left and right surround channels, much like Prologic does when deriving a front center channel.  Personally, I feel if your rear speakers image well, there is little point of having rear center speakers in most home theater applications.  However, that is my opinion.  Other people have different opinions.  Who is to say who is right?

Germanman, Steve's objective was mostly to point ouf the hardware differences between the units to help justify how his subjective listening results correllated.  It is obvious that Sony took more care in the consruction of the 9000ES and 5ES Recievers, and rightfully so, considering these units are more expensive than the 4ES.  In my opinion, Sony is notorious for creating a benchmark product, establishing its reputation, then cost reducing it to offer more affordable, and in most cases, lower performing models to target the mainstream.
The quality of the power supply, preamplifier section, and digital processing components all play a role in determining the overall performance of the product.  Since we don't have schematics of these units, and associated firmware code, it is difficult to analyze in detail to that level, to determine how much of a quantifiable difference the sum of the parts truly is.

Your tone suggests personal bias in this review.  I really don't understand how you have drawn that conclusion.  The author of the article has no loyalties to any of these products.  We are always searching for the best value in audio/video and thus choose those type of components to adorn our reference systems.  This is one of the perks we have as the owners of this website.  Our hard work, comprised of endless hours of research, writing, and working with vendors is what affords us such luxaries.  If you still prefer one of the units that we didn't recommend, by all means get it!  If you are unhappy with our conclusions, then take them with a grain of salt and purchase based on your own conclusions/preferences.  When I go out and buy products, I read reviews as reference material only, not as a biblical source.  Choose what is right for your application.  In the end, we would prefer our fans to be happy with products that they choose based on our recommendations, and their own conclusions.  I always tell people to not just blindly follow ours, or any reviewers advice.</font>
 
S

steve

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Interestingly enough, I NEVER SAID SHARC WAS BETTER THAN RISC.  

If you read the article, what I actually state is the following:

((("Many HiFi Enthusiasts believe SHARC Processors are superior to RISC.  To debate this issue is beyond the scope of this article.  Provided instead, is information on how the differences apply to the units within this article.")))

If you note, I clearly indicate that "Many HiFi Enthusiasts believe," I never said that I believe.  Also, I do acknowledge that debating this issue is beyond the scope of this article.  So I don't understand the attack about what I said, when I never said it.  

I realize it is not necessarily the technology (RISC or SHARC), but the implementation that is important.  Without schematics and design code, there is no way of telling which is better.  But if you notice, I provided a hotlinks to other sites that discuss RISC and SHARC Processors.  The point being that the article is intended to be dynamic and provide other places to go for research.

Secondly, we did not set forth with a biased toward the 9000ES.  Instead, we used it is as a baseline of comparison, as every comparison requires some form of a benchmark to compare from.  The ‘biased’ view probably comes from the fact that the sound quality between the units was so dramatic that I couldn’t help but notice and mention it.

Without electrical schematics, and design diagrams, it is hard to really discuss the 'Engineering' and Electrical design of these units.  That's why the level of detail some of you are looking for isn't found within this very brief, but informative article.

What you will notice in the article is a wealth of information with hotlinks to almost every critical IC within the 4ES and the 9000ES.  This was found through endless hours of research and also by contacting IC Manufacturers and Distributors.  Most of the information is not readily available and nowhere that I am aware of, is it even posted on the Internet in any other review of these units.  

I was hoping that some readers would spend time researching these hotlinks and discussing it within the context of this forum, and therefore, maybe provide additional Engineering Design principals about the 9000ES, 5ES and the 4ES.  Instead, a few people seem to be spending their time correcting spelling and bragging about Engineering backgrounds.

The article was intended to by dynamic, thus the hotlinks.  As indicated in another comment I made above, I will correct the weight discrepancy, I will change the symbol from milli-Farads to micro-Farads, and make a few more corrections that were kindly pointed out.  Even so, I’m sure some will find flaw’s as they will never be happy unless they do.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Steve,
I posted a response in the other thread about the Toshiba IC's that you identified as being the DSP processors, the TC9274x. In fact, this is an analog switch, used for selecting a source from amoung the various A/V inputs. I posted a link to the Toshiba data sheet in the other thread. The DSPs are in fact the Sony CDX9616's. As this is a proprietary in-house DSP, I have no info for it, and will not likely be able to find any. It is likely based on a SHARC or SHARC-like architechture (i.e. a DSP processor with some more advanced I/O capabilities).

I would also like to respond to your comment regarding 6.1 vs 7.1 channels, especiallly wrt the 4ES:
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I am trying to state is that the two center rear channels (7.1) in the 4ES are the same signal. &nbsp;They have descrete amplifiers, but they are not descrete, seperate channels. &nbsp;They simply run a mono-signal to each of the speakers. </td></tr></table>
The 4ES' DCS (Digital Cinema Sound) has several &quot;virtual&quot; modes where the receiver creates the illusion of speakers that are not there. I will not argue as to the usefullness of these modes, but I will say that the receiver will send a different signal to the left and right surround-back speakers in order to create this acoustic illusion. The reproduce the same channel from the source, but the extra information added by the DSP is distinct between the two. This is one reason why the two channels of amplification are necessary.

The other reason for two channels of amplification is that the 4ES will intelligently use the surround back speakers, if a pair of them are connected, while in other surround modes, such as DD/dts 5.1 or pro-logic. The left surround-back speaker will duplicate the left surround speaker (same for he right) when a separate surround-back channel is not avaiable. Note that if a virtual mode is also used, all four speakers will play a distinct signal, even though some/all are reproducing the same &quot;channel&quot; from the source. So, even without the virtual modes, the two surround-back speakers will sometimes reproduce two different signals (the normal left and right surround channels). Additionally, the Digital Concert Hall A &amp; B modes (used for 2-channel music sources) are now fully 7.1 channel capable.</font>
 
R

randyb

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>As I stated in the other thread.
Germanman and Aaronb,

This is just a suggestion, but rather than make this a personal debate about intent, I would much rather see you both help develope this forum. &nbsp;You both seem to have extensive knowledge and maybe a private email to Gene and Steve could find some kind of use for your knowledge (i.e. reviews of technical details before an article is posted, etc.). &nbsp;Just my 2 cents</font>
 
G

GermanMan

Enthusiast
<font color='#000000'>Well I knew that had to come. &nbsp;I figured I would either get razzed for putting credentials on the post or someone would say something along the lines of 'you only have 5 posts, what the heck do you know about hifi'. &nbsp;Its the price of speaking in a forum.


While I have no doubt that the 9000/5 units are surely better constructed than the 4/7 units, it is not clear that the better construction is justifiable in terms of the use and performance of the devices. &nbsp;Whether vibrations on the ICs affect thier signal processing ability or having a more sturdy and solid case affects what comes from the speakers... I am not convinced. &nbsp;The same goes for why I doubt that the $5000 Rolex or Tag watch does not really keep any better time than my $40 Timex.

The thing that has not yet been clarified is the true nature of the rear amps and channels in the 7.1 operating environment. &nbsp;It has been stated that the DSP modes allow two rear channels to output slighly different signals to the rear speakers as a result of processing the other signals available. &nbsp;Its also stated that the right rear and left rear speakers can get the right surround and left surround signals, respectively, when listening to a 5.1 source. &nbsp;That alone, indicates that the two channels are indeed separate from the back side of the DSP processing stage. &nbsp;It has also been stated and is clear that when listening to a source that only has a single rear channel of data in it, that the two rear channels will be fed with the same signal. &nbsp;What I would really like to know is if there was a 7.1 source (say DTS ES ) which actually had 2 separate rear channels encoded on them, would a 7.1 sytem like the 4/7 units process them and send those discrete signals to the output producing different signals being sent to the two rear channel speakers. &nbsp;This depends partly on what the DTS standard defines (is discrete 7.1 in it), as well as how a processor implements it (does the 4ES fully support a 7.1 signal source or does it just offer some interesting ways of listening to 5.1 and 6.1 sources by supplying a 7th amplified channel?). &nbsp;I suppose this cannot be tested yet, as there are no 7.1 dvd sources out there, or we cannot get the information from the design engineers at Sony.

If indeed, the 4ES just provides for new ways of listening to 5.1 and 6.1 sources, then the 7.1 aspects are somewhat overrated and it may well be worth sticking with the 6.1 systems. &nbsp;Certainly, if you have a nice 5.1 or 6.1 system already, its not worth considering an upgrade. &nbsp;However, if you are going to buy a whole new system and trying to decide between a 5.1/6.1/7.1 system, then it is critical to know, not only what can the system do with the exisiting software (how does it make 5.1/6.1 sources sound) but what could it do with future software (if and when some 7.1 stuff comes out).

I think this sort of heated debate with folks disagreeing virgously with each other and/or challenging each other is exactly why one has forums. &nbsp;A forum with some posted info and a bunch of ' I agree' or 'good job' responses is really not too usefull.</font>
 
S

steve

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Aron,

Once again a valid and nice post.  Thanks Aron B.  And Germman, it's nice to have you back.  

Just to continue on a point, the 7.1 channel in the 4ES is basically done with DSP effects, as you have pointed out.

The majority of DVD's are formatted with 5.1 with only a few, tiny percentage in 6.1 (DVD-EX, DTS-ES); but there are no commercially available formats that are 7.1 discrete.  

Any uniqueness in sound is from processing effects into these two channels from other channels, such as the rear surrounds.  Yamaha has been doing something similar to this for a number of years with their front effect speakers, so it’s not new technology, so to speak.  Its just being adapted to the rear centers now in the case of 7.1.  

Granted, there may be some sound effects that perhaps enhance the overall surround mode experience in a few applications, but for all practical purposes, 6.1 and 7.1 are the same, identical channel with only DSP changing their sound.  

On a separate note, I just finished reviewing a pair of quad-pole, rear channel speakers on a standard 5.1 system (the article on these beauties is forthcoming).  With many of the DVD's we listened to, these rear speakers alone, were enough to fill the entire room adequately, and did not leave any of us longing for a rear center or two rear centers for that matter.

I’ve now heard that THX is coming out with new spec which requires speakers on the ceiling.  All I have to say is, when is it all going to end?  I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, but I do have to ask, how many more speakers do these Manufacturers expect us to buy before it becomes ridiculous.  Before long, there will be processors/receivers that even have speaker channels for sidewalls (oh, wait, there is), and everyone is going to want that as well.  

At some point, we should realize that some of this is a scam to get us, the Consumers, to buy more speakers and get rid of our older, but still valid, equipment.  

Upon our recent review of several new Receivers, including the 4ES, I have safely concluded that I have no desire to outdate my 9000ES at this time.  I am content with 5.1, and the much better build/sound quality.  

Besides, I don’t know about you guys, but my wife won’t allow me to have two more rear center speakers, or speakers on the ceiling, or sidewall for that matter.  I’ve already been told that I’m pushing my luck with the rear speakers you see in the Reference System pictures under our Reference System section.  

I’m glad we can keep these debates friendly, and this post is not intended to argue or anger anyone, except maybe some of the Manufacturers.

Thanks,
Stevie D</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">there are no commercially available formats that are 7.1 discrete</td></tr></table>
I have read that the current spec for &quot;dts-ES discrete&quot; allows for 7.1 in addition to 6.1 discrete channels. I am not aware of any software (DVD's, dts-CD's, etc.) that takes advantage of this capability, though. I also cannot comment on whether the current crop of dts-ES discrete equipped receivers/pre-pros can decode the 7.1 channels.</font>
 
S

steve

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Germman,

To clarify something, I'm not stating that sound dampening the chassis will improve the sound quality going to the speaker.  What I mean is as follows:

Sound dampening the chassis on the 9000ES is intended to keep it from vibrating during movies or music, and therefore, preventing it from creating a vibrating sound of its own.  

I know this happens because I've noticed on many occasions, when there is cranking bass, a number of electronics in my rack, especially my new Wide Screen TV, vibrate and/or ring.  These vibrations and rings are annoying and interfere with my focus of the sound track.

On the 9000ES, the chassis is sound dampened.  Knowing this assures me that at least one piece of equipment in my rack wont ring when I’m playing music or movies.  I wish I could say that for my new wide screen TV.  Every time there is any bass at all, the whole cabinet vibrates louder than the speakers.

As for Sony placing foam on the IC’s in the 9000, I am curious as to why they did this too.  As it is located internally, and no one will really see it, I can't imagine it is done as a marketing scam.  For them to actually place this material on most of the IC's is costly, and therefore, must have a reason.  I don't know what that reason actually is, nor do I mean to imply it in the article, but it must be justified or they wouldn't have done it.

Without more information or knowledge of the reason, I can only assume it has to do with sound isolation from vibration, but again, I'm not sure.  Maybe someone in the forum can help out.

As for your comment about a good debate in the forum, I'm in favor.  I just don't like the personal bashing, so lets not do that anymore please :  )  We can accomplish much more by disagreeing as friends then as enemies.

Thanks,
Stevie D</font>
 
R

randyb

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000080'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well I knew that had to come.  I figured I would either get razzed for putting credentials on the post or someone would say something along the lines of 'you only have 5 posts, what the heck do you know about hifi'.  Its the price of speaking in a forum.</td></tr></table>

I think the credentials were appropriate.  I think it does add credibility to your remarks on technical matters.  I hope you all continue a friendly debate.  I mean it is not like you are debating whether a Sony is better than a Yamaha is better than a Denon is better than-well you get the picture.
</font>
 
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S

steve

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Sorry about that man.  Your correct, it does help to identify credentials, and I didn’t mean to mock you about it.  In fact, GDS, myself and all the writers on this site, posted a staff bio with our credentials under the staff bios section.

When things get heated, it's easy to criticize people, but I think we will all do better recognizing each others strengths and weaknesses and helping create an informative forum.

Stevie D</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Hello!

I just purchased a STR-DA4ES for a whopping $641 from a NYC source.

I have listened to the many recievers out there and for the most part CANNOT hear any real substantial differences in my listening / home theater room.

The 4ES has worked well, is extremely flexible and has more bells and whistles than I will ever use.

I have an old PS AUDIO 200C I crank up and I still cant hear any great difference!!

I will most likely never use 6.1 or 7.1..so the missing headroom from the amp section is even more non-existent..

I would not hesitate to bu a 4ES again, especially at the price of $641~

Alex
Raleigh
, N.C.
</font>
 
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J

jamvog

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>How does the remote of the 4ES and the 5ES compare? Which comes out on top? Also is there infoformation on how you tested these products? What was tested how it was hooked up etc.. I tend to like my STR-DA4ES but that's probably because my last reciever was a STR-G3. So if I can get around with that remote I think I can work most anything. I do have a question about the 6.1 decoders available on the 4ES. The manual states on the Auto / Matrix 6.1 that it has a 6.1 discrete decorder built-in. Does the 9000ES have this feature? I was not sure if the 4ES has it exactly. But I thought it did. The opinion I have of the review is price. Bang for the buck as they say. The 4ES is a reciever the 9000ES is a pre amp correct? So in earlier posts the units are about the same cost minus the ampliers needed to get sound from the 9000ES. So I still would not put them in same class even know they are ES products they are different components.</font>
 
S

steve

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>I don't remember the remote for the 5ES, as it's been some time since I've seen it.  I can tell you that the 4ES remote is not very user friendly and is challenging to navigate through, especially in the dark when watching movies.  Worst thing about it is you can not change speaker levels ‘on the fly.’

The way the products were tested was explained in another forum section.  In general, we connect the units to a full set of very accurate, flat speakers.  We then listened to a multitude of different audio tracks from CD's to SACD's to DVD-A's to DTS and so forth.  Once we had a sense of what an individual track (songs or movies) sounded like, with respect to overall quality, dynamics and tonal character; we switched back to the other unit and listened again.  We repeated this process until we were confident we identified the tonal differences between the units.  It was a lengthy, careful process that we feel helped us to identify the different tonal characteristics of the receivers/processors capabilities.

As for putting the 4ES and the 9000ES in the same category, that's not really the purpose of the article.  Instead, it is somewhat of a comparison of the old (9000ES without 6.1 or 7.1, the 5ES without 7.1), to the new (4ES with 7.1).  The comparison is where we identify some potential shortcomings in the 4ES design and build quality.

The 4ES is a good receiver for the money.  Most of the tonal quality differences between the other units are minor and may only be noticeable on 'high end' speakers.  My personal conclusion though, is the 7.1 is not really a positive addition to warrant some of the other changes in the 4ES compared to the 5ES or the 9000ES, such as the user interface, amplifier section (of the 4ES), and so forth.  To me, it’s just not worth having two center channel rear speakers.

To answer your last question, the 9000ES does not have discrete 6.1.  With the software upgrade, it does offer a Virtual 6.1 Matrix Sound-field, but it is not discrete.  It just enhances the sound coming from the 5.1 surround speakers.  I have actually found this mode to be extremely useful when listening to 2-channel movies from Satellite.  It really separates the sound and gives the sense of 5.1/6.1 Surround and it does it very well.</font>
 
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