Battle of the Sonys - Part 1

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Stevie,

Thanks for your ongoing responses in this forum. &nbsp;My primary interest in the DA4ES / DA5ES debate is based on Analog performance. &nbsp;I have an SACD player, and a DVD-A player, and each outputs only analog. &nbsp;Because of this, I like the Sony recievers for having 2 multi-channel analog inputs. &nbsp;No other reciever, of any brand, seems to have this feature.

That said, I was willing to live with cable swapping if necessary if I didn't like the sound of the Sony reciever. &nbsp;However I went to several local audio shops, and compared the sound of the DA5ES to many other recievers, and found in general I liked it better than anything in the &lt;$1500 range. &nbsp;

In your review, you mention that the DA4ES did not perform as well as the other pre/pros you were comparing it with in direct analog mode. &nbsp;Is this not true of the DA5ES, namely is it truly on par with the TA-E9000ES as an analog pre/pro?

Thank you,
Jeremy</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hope someone in the forum can clarify if the 4ES uses a digital volume control or not.  If it does, then like the 9000ES, it does not have a real analog bi-pass.
</td></tr></table>
Yes, the 4ES does have a true analog volume control. The sound is not digitised or quantised by the volume control section; it is merely attentuated in the analog domain.

Note that the volume control used on it implemented using digitally-controlled analog potentiometers. The same is true of the 5ES which shares much of the same architecture. Do not mistake this for a &quot;digital&quot; volume control, which would consist of re-calculating digital samples based on an attenuation factor, prior to D/A conversion. The 9000ES has a more unique architecture as you know, and although it is not as closely related to the 4ES as the 5ES is, it also has an analog volume control, implemented in a similar way. The &quot;analog direct&quot; switch will completely bypass the A/D and D/A converters. Note that the volume control on the 9000ES comes after the D/A converters, as indicated by the signal-flow diagrams in the service manual. I will have to reference my copy of the service manual (at home) if you want further details on it.

On the 4ES, the volume dial is a speed-sensitive 'jog' dial, whereas on the 5ES, it is a position-based dial. That means that you have to watch the display, or set the level by ear on the 4ES, but on the 5ES, you can set it (roughly) by positioning the volume dial in a certain spot. It also means that the motor and the associated noise and granularity of control is eliminated, for remote control volume changes on the 4ES.</font>

 

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>AaronB,

Great information and I appreciate you clarifying analog bypass and volume control.  I am the Mechanical Engineer in the group and try to save these questions/issues for Gene as he is the Electrical Engineer.

It seems you have quite a bit of information at your disposal.  I've actually been looking for schematic info on the 9000ES and the 4ES/5ES.  If you have anything your willing to share with us, please drop me an e-mail.

Thanks for your continued support and information provided on these forums.  Your a big help.

Regards,

Stevie D</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>stevie,
I should be more careful... I may have been speaking about the 777ES receiver when I said that it has an analog volume control section, like the 5ES and 4ES receivers after it. I'll check the service manuals when I get home, and I'll send some links to you so that you can download them as well. The 9000ES preamp just may have some kind of fancy digital volume control, which would be somewhat surprising and unfortunate as it would prevent any kind of true analog bypass mode, and would restrict the frequency response of the analog inputs (based on the sampling frequency).</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Update:
The TA-E9000ES pre-amp does digitize all inputs (at 48 kHz) without exception; it has no analog bypass mode. The volume control is digital, and is incorporated into the sophisticated pulse D/A converter system. In addition, the gain of certain analog circuitry is adjusted by the system based on the volume setting to achieve higher resolution from the D/A and higher S/N Ratio. This pre-amp would be a poor choice if listening to (2-channel) SACD or DVD-A.

The 777ES receiver (in many ways very similar to the E9000ES pre-amp) uses a simpler system with a digitally-controlled analog potentiometers after the DAC. This allows true analog bypass without A/D and D/A conversion, enabling wider frequency response and increased fidelity with sources such as SACD or DVD-A. It may also result in a lower SNR (compared to the E9000ES) especially at lower volumes.

The 5ES receiver is similar to the 777ES w.r.t. volume control.

The 4ES receiver is again similar, but also incorporates a system which Sony calls &quot;Optimum Preamplification&quot;. Similar to the E9000ES, this will adjust the gain of certain analog circuitry in order to acheive a better Signal to Noise Ratio, especially at low volumes. Sony claims a 10 dB improvement in SNR over previous receivers (presumably the 3ES &amp; 5ES) The adjustment step is also 0.5 dB instead of the 5ES' 1.0 dB, for more precise adjustments.</font>

 

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>AaronB,

All the posts and articles I've seen on the 9000ES, mine included, you are the first person that I am aware of, to point out that the 9000ES does not have a true analog bi-pass.

This is indeed, disappointing to know, but I'm glad you were able to find it out and post it on the forum.

This explains why the 9000ES sounds a bit bright in &quot;analog&quot; mode. &nbsp;Very interesting.

Thanks,
Stevie D</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Thank-you to everyone for their enthusiasm on this topic. I have finally decided to upgrade my ProLogic amp to 5.1, since I am mixing in the format for television now,as well as film (Odyssey 5, on Showtime). This forum has been a great help. The SHARC chip (if in fact it is in the 5ES) has a very good reputation in the pro audio field, and is inside the Studer D950 we use for mixing (40 bit floating). I believe another console manufacturer has switched to this DSP as well.
When looking for a receiver, it has been interesting to see all the &quot;formats&quot; available. If not already mentioned here, the 7.1 format (in cinema, I guess) really refers to Sony's SDDS, with an inner left and right of center. I find it a bit confusing when manufacturers call 6.1 with seven amplifiers, 7.1. This is incorrect, as the same program exists in the center rear speakers, in 6.1. In 5.1, the left and right rear program gets divided between the center rears (as one post mentioned). I'm sure just as I purchase my new receiver (which is likely to be the 5ES, as we get a good deal from Sony for all the HD gear our video guys have had to buy) a new &quot;format&quot; will come out. Tom Holman (Mr. THX) told us at an AES conference that the ideal speaker setup to cover the full sound field should be 10.2. Yes, ten speakers around the listener, and two subs. Fun stuff.</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

Guest : <font color='#000000'>Tom Holman (Mr. THX) told us at an AES conference that the ideal speaker setup to cover the full sound field should be 10.2. Yes, ten speakers around the listener, and two subs. Fun stuff.</font>

<font color='#000000'>Sheesh... when will these guys quit? &nbsp;

</font>

 

[RLA]

<font color='#000000'>I vote for 10.1 now &nbsp;
I have just about finished upgrading my clients to 7.1

</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Would anyone know where a Sony STR-DA90ESG might compare to others? Or a general comparison of the DA5ES, DA50ES, V555ES and other series of receivers in the sony line?

I bought this model because of Vision Touch, most people bought the DA80ESG because it doesn't have it. These were the first series of ES receivers with DD. I think it uses 24 bit processors instead of 32. I want to check the list from the article to what I find in my receiver. I know the power supply is marked ES and the caps are 15,000uf. I've like it but the amplifier is a downgrade from what I owned previous but still OK. There is a 5.1 out for upgraded Amp but no 5.1 in and no 96/24 in.</font>