Bass

[Brentlee24]

When I play music on direct mode on avr 2.0 setup, the bass sounds better than 2.1 setup on stereo mode....Polk signature s60s for L/R and svs pb2000 for sub. . 80 and up crossover for the 2.1.
What the heck!


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[mazersteven]

I think that crossovers a little bit high for those speakers I would play with 50 to 60 and see how that sounds. And make sure you have the proper placement for that subwoofer

 

[sterling shoote]

When I play music on direct mode on avr 2.0 setup, the bass sounds better than 2.1 setup on stereo mode....Polk signature s60s for L/R and svs pb2000 for sub. . 80 and up crossover for the 2.1.
What the heck!


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The other day I disconnected my 2 channel SACD Player from my 5.1 Pre-Pro, which crossovers bass at 60Hz, and re connected the Player to the front channels of an analog 5.1 preamplifier, not realizing I was going to loose the sub and my mains would be operating at full range. Thing is, I liked the outcome. It was like I had lifted a veil from the music yet I did not sense a loss of bass, perhaps because my mains go below 40Hz, I just don't know. At any rate, there's a common expression used to describe experimentation with bass to make it sound right from a sub in a stereo or multi-channel mix, it's called bass management. That phrase would not exist if getting bass properly integrated to stereo and multi-channel music, or movies was not an issue. But, it's always an issue, meaning too much or too little bass emphasis for any particular volume. So far, I've come to manage bass via one system for stereo and another system for multi-channel music and movies; yet, I often think I could address bass better from speakers which have more "full range"; plus, amplification with a simple bass tone control. Bottom-line here is I suggest you just experiment and keep a record of results so that you can reproduce the results you found compelling with particular music and movie selections.

 

[XEagleDriver]

Another thing to experiment with is the sub phase adjustment.

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[William Lemmerhirt]

Yep. Phase, XO, and make sure the sub isn’t too hot. That’s a sure way to mess it up. Assuming it was set by ear, definitely try lowering it. But at the very least. Use an spl meter and try and run a test tone at the xo point. Move the phase until you get the most output. That should tell you if the XO void(not always there but common) is filled in or not. You can do that by ear but it’s harder to tell. You can also add a couple feet incrementally to the subwoofer channel and see if the XO dip goes way too.
And of course never underestimate REW and a umik-1
Number one question though. What didn’t you like in the first place?

 

[Brentlee24]

Yep. Phase, XO, and make sure the sub isn’t too hot. That’s a sure way to mess it up. Assuming it was set by ear, definitely try lowering it. But at the very least. Use an spl meter and try and run a test tone at the xo point. Move the phase until you get the most output. That should tell you if the XO void(not always there but common) is filled in or not. You can do that by ear but it’s harder to tell. You can also add a couple feet incrementally to the subwoofer channel and see if the XO dip goes way too.
And of course never underestimate REW and a umik-1
Number one question though. What didn’t you like in the first place?

What I didn't like is that the base sounded way better without the nice expensive sub I got. With the sub volume at 12 a clock and the avr sub volume at +4 I can barely hear the base compared to 2.0 direct. Gets closer turning it up to +12 and one or two aclock. I'll play around with the suggestions I got from everyone though. Thank you

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[Brentlee24]

Thanks everyone. I'll try out all the suggestions and see what I can do. Maybe subwoofers just don't really matter when it comes to music like they do with movies, when you have decent floor standing speakers....

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[William Lemmerhirt]

Also, what music are you listening to?

 

[mazersteven]

 

[Brentlee24]

Also, what music are you listening to?

For base testing purposes rap works like that dababy song. Billy ellish bad guy is a good one.

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[lovinthehd]

What is your receiver/pre-amp managing things? How did you choose sub location? You really don't want the sub to dominate or even be localized, tho.

 

[Brentlee24]

What is your receiver/pre-amp managing things? How did you choose sub location? You really don't want the sub to dominate or even be localized, tho.

Onkyo 585.


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[sterling shoote]

What I didn't like is that the base sounded way better without the nice expensive sub I got. With the sub volume at 12 a clock and the avr sub volume at +4 I can barely hear the base compared to 2.0 direct. Gets closer turning it up to +12 and one or two aclock. I'll play around with the suggestions I got from everyone though. Thank you

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Barely hear? The lowest octave is felt. And, to feel it something’s got to produce it, not likely from any genre of music other than some dance tunes like Body Move ( Raito Remix) or like the movie Polar Express when the steam locomotive makes a stop to pick up the kid. If ya want to get the bass right for much music set it to properly place the double bass in a Diana Krall tune. Too much and the bass will be in front of singer and too little and the bass will sound way behind the piano.

 

[lovinthehd]

Onkyo 585.


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Did you do a sub crawl or ? for placement. Assume speakers are set to small?

 

[Truthslayer]

What I didn't like is that the base sounded way better without the nice expensive sub I got. With the sub volume at 12 a clock and the avr sub volume at +4 I can barely hear the base compared to 2.0 direct. Gets closer turning it up to +12 and one or two aclock. I'll play around with the suggestions I got from everyone though. Thank you

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Try turning down the sub level on your AVR, try it at 0 or less. Turn up the gain on the sub. Running the +4 sub level on your AVR might be sending distortion. Remember the gain level on the subwoofer amp is more of a sensitivity control not a volume control.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

For base testing purposes rap works like that dababy song. Billy ellish bad guy is a good one.

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I tried Badguy. On my system at bass was tight and balanced with and without subs. When I switched from direct to stereo(2.3) it stayed tight but was fuller probably due to my house curve. Then I tried dua lipa, don’t start. It has a really tight funk bass line. Got the same results. Neither song goes very deep, and my mains are rated to 35hz so that’s why I didn’t notice any extra extension from the subs. Just more power.
Crutchfield shows the s60’s FR starts at 26hz which I’d have to see measured to believe, but they should be solid for most types of music. I used 50hz for a XO for a long time. Definitely try 40-60 and see. Also, it’s important imo to level match any subwoofer. After that you can adjust to taste, but not before.

 

[lovinthehd]

I tried Badguy. On my system at bass was tight and balanced with and without subs. When I switched from direct to stereo(2.3) it stayed tight but was fuller probably due to my house curve. Then I tried dua lipa, don’t start. It has a really tight funk bass line. Got the same results. Neither song goes very deep, and my mains are rated to 35hz so that’s why I didn’t notice any extra extension from the subs. Just more power.
Crutchfield shows the s60’s FR starts at 26hz which I’d have to see measured to believe, but they should be solid for most types of music. I used 50hz for a XO for a long time. Definitely try 40-60 and see. Also, it’s important imo to level match any subwoofer. After that you can adjust to taste, but not before.

I was curious also about the spec on the S60 and Polk's literature/manual only has the broad undefined range of 26hz-40khz. S&V measured the f3 at 44hz, the f6 at 36hz so suspect the 26hz is f10....crossing them at 80 sounds reasonable but I'd also try higher.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I was curious also about the spec on the S60 and Polk's literature/manual only has the broad undefined range of 26hz-40khz. S&V measured the f3 at 44hz, the f6 at 36hz so suspect the 26hz is f10....crossing them at 80 sounds reasonable but I'd also try higher.

Wow! That’s a discrepancy I guess. Lol
Interesting. The two tracks I listed to don’t go very deep, but with f3 at 44hz I can’t believe the sub isn’t helping. Still wondering about setup and placement etc. Room size, and whether it’s suspended floor or concrete. Some suspended rooms I’ve been in are pressurized pretty easily with decent mains. Still need subs though...[emoji12]

 

[TLS Guy]

So some of you are starting to find, that picking a pair of speakers or more and then picking a sub on specks is a very imperfect system. As I have been telling you for years it is a highly questionable system. In my opinion it is not fit for purpose.

The crossover in a pre/pro or receiver is an off the shelf generic crossover. It is fundamentally not far removed to picking some raw drivers and a generic crossover from Parts Express. You know what we all think about that. For optimal reproduction the crossover must account for the acoustic responses of the drivers. This bass management system does not. So as far as I'm concerned it is a fudge pressed into service by Hollywood, so their crude sound effects could be reproduced and not blow up speakers. For critical music reproduction it is useless.

As you know I have repeatedly harped on the shortcomings of this approach.

So it is essential for all speakers to be designed as an integrated whole. There is just no getting around that. The problem is that in order to properly implement current bass management practice, ALL speakers have to be designed to specifically work with the constraints and specifications of the current system. Practically no systems do. Yet, this is what was envisaged by the original developers at THX. Loudspeaker manufacturers have pretty much universally ignored this fact, and rendered truly accurate reproduction impossible using this system.

As I think you know, I'm one of the very few who designs and builds for total system integration. This is carried to an extreme degree in my theater.

But even in my 3.1 in wall system this is designed as a totally integrated system.

The next issue is time. Separating subs and main speakers is less then ideal. Time shifts matter.

The wisdom that speakers and subs should be crossed over and set to small is wrong basically. In many systems it is a necessity to protect drivers.

If your speakers are capable, they should be set to large. They should be gently supplemented by subs using the LFE + main setting, Where possible place a couple of subs next to the main speakers. In general this will give you the most accurate reproduction.

In my main system all speakers are set to large except the ceiling speakers.

This whole system when designed by THX was predicated on the bass roll off of the speakers being second order 12 db per octave. However the vast majority of speakers roll off fourth order 24 db per octave. This puts a monkey wrench in the whole system right out of the starting gate.