Bass Management with Legacy Audio Focus SE

[Aliholic]

Hey guys so my tower speakers are handling the bass for all my speakers, the center and the surround speakers. This is a living room setup so I had no space to place a subwoofer so I opted to get a large tower speaker that produces full range sound for stereo (below 20 HZ). These are very expensive speakers that I have measured full range output. Now, on my denon receiver since I am not using subwoofers I set all my speakers small (the center and surround) except for my tower speakers which I set to large. However, on the crossover display should I set my tower to 80 Hz even though my speaker is still technically a subwoofer as well or should I set the crossover to 250 Hz the max crossover setting? I have the LFE + Main set to 120 Hz which is correct but need some suggestion if I set my large tower speakers to 80 Hz if it is ok or not? My home theater setup everything is set small and I have subwoofers engaged but my living room setup I could not put a subwoofer. Thanks!

 

[lovinthehd]

No point to setting a crossover for speakers that are set to small (when using the LFE option), but with LFE+Main the crossover will limit the low pass filter for the sub and provide full range for the speakers (a double bass setting so to speak). Your speaker is not a subwoofer for the purposes of the avr. Setting LFE+Main wouldn't necessarily be "correct" at any crossover setting....do you mean LPF of LFE instead? That should normally be 120hz (the normal limit of LFE channel content).

 

[Aliholic]

Right so I’m using LFE plus Main set at 120 HZ but my center and surrounds are set small to 80 HZ. I set my towers large without a subwoofer since my living room setup does not consist of a subwoofer and instead I am using the L/R speakers as subwoofers as well. I’m just wondering does setting an 80 Hz crossover to LR matter if they are large?

No point to setting a crossover for speakers that are set to small (when using the LFE option), but with LFE+Main the crossover will limit the low pass filter for the sub and provide full range for the speakers (a double bass setting so to speak). Your speaker is not a subwoofer for the purposes of the avr. Setting LFE+Main wouldn't necessarily be "correct" at any crossover setting....do you mean LPF of LFE instead? That should normally be 120hz (the normal limit of LFE channel content).

 

[j_garcia]

When set to large, the x-over should not apply at all. Large implies full range is sent to the speaker. The x-over value only applies when the speaker is set to small and would not come into play when set to large. LFE only applies to the LFE out, which you are not using and which does not exist when not using a sub. That bass is redirected to the speakers set to large.

 

[Aliholic]

When set to large, the x-over should not apply at all. Large implies full range is sent to the speaker. The x-over value only applies when the speaker is set to small and would not come into play when set to large. LFE only applies to the LFE out, which you are not using and which does not exist when not using a sub. That bass is redirected to the speakers set to large.

Perfect now will the speakers set to small will the bass be routed to the tower speaker set large?

 

[j_garcia]

Perfect now will the speakers set to small will the bass be routed to the tower speaker set large?

Yes. You should be good to go.

 

[lovinthehd]

When set to large, the x-over should not apply at all. Large implies full range is sent to the speaker. The x-over value only applies when the speaker is set to small and would not come into play when set to large. LFE only applies to the LFE out, which you are not using and which does not exist when not using a sub. That bass is redirected to the speakers set to large.

If using LFE+Main and speakers set to large the crossover acts only as a low pass filter for the sub (still sends full range to speaker). It's been a while but without a sub believe you are correct, no LFE....but believe no bass management for the speakers with crossovers set (believe it's just a high pass filter for the speakers in those cases but not sure).

ps Just peeked at one of my Denon manuals, the surrounds do get bass management sent to the fronts when using a crossover.....

 

[j_garcia]

Yep, "bass" from the other channels should be redirected, that is not LFE though. The true "LFE" channel is not present, but that bass from the LFE channel should be incorporated into the signal for the mains when no sub is selected is my understanding. I would not use LFE+mains, I would just set them to large and say no sub.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yep, "bass" from the other channels should be redirected, that is not LFE though. The true "LFE" channel is not present, but that bass from the LFE channel should be incorporated into the signal for the mains when no sub is selected is my understanding. I would not use LFE+mains, I would just set them to large and say no sub.

Agree on the other channels. LFE is LFE, tho, so it's either present or not despite any bass management settings, so the surrounds might be redirected to the sub pre-out is more the way I'd think about it....and that glance at the manual didn't specify that the LFE channel was routed to the mains...now I gotta dig some more Personally I'd just use a sub (and likely several) even with the Legacys

 

[j_garcia]

Agree on the other channels. LFE is LFE, tho, so it's either present or not despite any bass management settings, so the surrounds might be redirected to the sub pre-out is more the way I'd think about it....and that glance at the manual didn't specify that the LFE channel was routed to the mains...now I gotta dig some more Personally I'd just use a sub (and likely several) even with the Legacys

I think it is more like "mixed in" to the mains, not like it reroutes the LFE channel as is to the mains. That is just my assessment, when you say no sub, it plays a signal that maintains the majority of the audio in the track just not as a separate channel. I've never had 20Hz capable mains in my systems with no sub, so I can't confirm there was content that low coming from the mains

 

[TLS Guy]

Perfect now will the speakers set to small will the bass be routed to the tower speaker set large?

No it won't. The sub out is the output that routes both the bass below crossover of all speakers and the LFE channel.

I use full range towers, but you can not run them from a receiver. To drive a full range tower and re route bass and capture the LFE signal, requires separates, and an active speaker, with a buffer amp also to combine the left and right bass, and the redirected bass, with the LFE channel. It is very complicated, and you had better make sure the bass drivers in your towers really are capable of LFE duty.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No it won't. The sub out is the output that routes both the bass below crossover of all speakers and the LFE channel.

I use full range towers, but you can not run them from a receiver. To drive a full range tower and re route bass and capture the LFE signal, requires separates, and an active speaker, with a buffer amp also to combine the left and right bass, and the redirected bass, with the LFE channel. It is very complicated, and you had better make sure the bass drivers in your towers really are capable of LFE duty.

What?

Are you saying that when the AVR’s Sub is set to “None” and Main Fronts are set to ”LARGE”, the AVR still won’t send all the BASS to the Main Fronts?

This topic has been brought up so many times throughout the years. Many of us have done this. The answer as always been “YES the AVR will send all the bass to the Main Fronts”.

@PENG, @gene, @shadyJ among others might chime in.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hey guys so my tower speakers are handling the bass for all my speakers, the center and the surround speakers. This is a living room setup so I had no space to place a subwoofer so I opted to get a large tower speaker that produces full range sound for stereo (below 20 HZ). These are very expensive speakers that I have measured full range output. Now, on my denon receiver since I am not using subwoofers I set all my speakers small (the center and surround) except for my tower speakers which I set to large. However, on the crossover display should I set my tower to 80 Hz even though my speaker is still technically a subwoofer as well or should I set the crossover to 250 Hz the max crossover setting? I have the LFE + Main set to 120 Hz which is correct but need some suggestion if I set my large tower speakers to 80 Hz if it is ok or not? My home theater setup everything is set small and I have subwoofers engaged but my living room setup I could not put a subwoofer. Thanks!

Is the SUB set to “None”?

If you are not using the Sub output on the AVR, I don’t see the point of using LFE+MAIN.

I didn’t even think you could set LFE+Main if the subwoofer is set to “None”.

But if subs are set to none and Mains are set to Large, all the bass should go to the Mains.

There is a 2nd method if you don’t like the 1st method, which is recommended by most people.

The 2nd method might only be used by about 0.0001% of people (joke on SINAD/THD+N ).

Basically you remove the bi-amp Jumpers from the towers, use an external Amp or Subwoofer Amp, and turn your Woofers into an “active subwoofer“ by feeding the AVR’s Sub Output to the external amp or sub amp and then feeding the amp to the Bass Speaker terminals.

At one point I was going to get the Focus SE (since I could get dealer demo discount) and do this method.

Presently, I don’t need to do this because my speakers are modular towers so the bottom cabinet is an actual subwoofer. But if I had something like the RBH 8300 tower, Focus SE, Klipsch RF7III, Polk L800, or other bi-amp towers with dual 10-12” woofers or at least three 8” Woofers, I would do the 2nd method because I am that 0.0001%.

 

[TLS Guy]

What?

Are you saying that when the AVR’s Sub is set to “None” and Main Fronts are set to ”LARGE”, the AVR still won’t send all the BASS to the Main Fronts?

This topic has been brought up so many times throughout the years. Many of us have done this. The answer as always been “YES the AVR will send all the bass to the Main Fronts”.

@PENG, @gene, @shadyJ among others might chime in.

I have not tested this since my original AV 8003. But that only sent the low pass crossover outputs to the sub out.

If you only have mains, then you should NOT use LFE + main, as then half the bass gets sent to the sub outs.

Although the switching is digital, the crossovers are analog. They have typical analog characteristics. So feeding the low pass crossover of the surrounds etc. to the left and right mains would require significant extra circuitry. I doubt that happens.

If you think about it, that is why DefTech speakers with the powered woofer are set up the way they are.

So if you are not using a sub, then it is best to just leave all speakers large, and set no sub in the speaker set up menu.

The problem is that any speaker set to large is fed ahead of the crossover input. So if you fed back the output from the low pass crossovers of the other speakers, that would create a howl round feedback situation without a lot of complex buffering and isolation, even then it would be very difficult. So, I would highly doubt that low pass crossovers are fed back to the input of the main left and right amp, if the mains are set to large and no sub is selected.

So to mix the sub output and part of the signal to the mains in my set up, requires a buffer amp, and a custom mixing arrangement. This took quite a bit of figuring out.

 

[TLS Guy]

I did mange to find some data on those speakers. There is sleight of hand here.

This is the FR that I could find.

Not that that there are dips and peaks at both end of the spectrum. A -2db claim is made but semi legit. The midrange is depressed, and there is a peak at 40 Hz.

Since the -2db point is referenced to the 500/1000Hz range 2db can be claimed!

However the speaker is mistuned.