Bass Management Questions

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
So weather its a good or lousy recording it doesn't matter which one transports it to the receiver, it is what is?
Either dynamic compression or LFC are both systems which compromise sound quality in order to accommodate a specific situation. I can't think of how either could help a bad recording if you are listening in a typical home audio situation.

Audyssey Dynamic Volume is a Dynamic Compression system. It makes the quiet stuff louder and the loud stuff quieter. For example if you are listening to a classical piece (which often go from very quiet to very loud) while your neighbor is blowing leaves, you would manually crank it up on a quiet passage then get blown out of your room when it got loud (so you would need to turn it back down). This also might be useful if your kid is asleep and you want to watch The Avengers. By reducing the loudest sounds you are less likely to disturb the kids sleep when Hulk is punching spaceships or Thor is conjuring lightening!

LFC is a way of turning down the lower frequencies. It stands for Low Frequency Containment which is a less offensive way of saying "subwoofer castration". The objective (per their terminology) is to keep low frequencies contained in your room or apartment. It is a handy way of applying a low frequency roll off so the deep bass most likely to be a nuisance to the neighbors is selectively reduced. This is an even better thing for the kid asleep scenario.

I forget the name, but the more recent Denon and Marantz AVR's have a Dynamic Expansion feature which I find worthwhile. It has been awhile so all I can say is after playing with it, I set it at one of the lower levels and forgot it. It is intended to add dynamics which are often compressed depending on the recording. For example a recording engineer might compress the dynamics because he is aware the typical listener is going to to be listening to earbuds while riding the subway (similar situation to leaf blower). Or more likely, since louder music always sounds better the engineer might want to get the average volume as high as possible so their song will be more likely noticed and liked when played on the radio. To get the average volume up, you have to reduce the dynamic range so the loudest does not exceed the capabilities of the medium. You have likely experienced this if you have any CD's from the 80's vs modern CDs. Almost universally, I find the old CDs are not as loud as new ones. The old ones have the volume level centered between the highest peak and the lowest level a CD could contain. The new ones are compressed and then the loudest peak is raised to near the maximum volume the CD can have.

Dynamic EQ is essentially a modern sophisticated "Loudness control". Back in the day, Loudness switches were developed to counteract the loudness contour curve associated with human hearing; however, manufacturers quickly found out their gear sold best if the loudness switch provided extreme amounts of additional bass and treble (which had been very hard/expensive to obtain in the previous decade) because that is often how a buyer would evaluate a receiver/amp! Thus a good idea ultimate became a crappy execution and over time the loudness switch got a bad reputation (except Yamaha's loudness knob) and was eliminated from audio controls.
I like DEQ (with a -10dB reference), but it is easy enough to play with and see how/if it works for you. If you always listen loud, it does nothing, but when you listen with the volume down it sounds quite a bit fuller.

HTH!
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Either dynamic compression or LFC are both systems which compromise sound quality in order to accommodate a specific situation. I can't think of how either could help a bad recording if you are listening in a typical home audio situation.

Audyssey Dynamic Volume is a Dynamic Compression system. It makes the quiet stuff louder and the loud stuff quieter. For example if you are listening to a classical piece (which often go from very quiet to very loud) while your neighbor is blowing leaves, you would manually crank it up on a quiet passage then get blown out of your room when it got loud (so you would need to turn it back down). This also might be useful if your kid is asleep and you want to watch The Avengers. By reducing the loudest sounds you are less likely to disturb the kids sleep when Hulk is punching spaceships or Thor is conjuring lightening!

LFC is a way of turning down the lower frequencies. It stands for Low Frequency Containment which is a less offensive way of saying "subwoofer castration". The objective (per their terminology) is to keep low frequencies contained in your room or apartment. It is a handy way of applying a low frequency roll off so the deep bass most likely to be a nuisance to the neighbors is selectively reduced. This is an even better thing for the kid asleep scenario.

I forget the name, but the more recent Denon and Marantz AVR's have a Dynamic Expansion feature which I find worthwhile. It has been awhile so all I can say is after playing with it, I set it at one of the lower levels and forgot it. It is intended to add dynamics which are often compressed depending on the recording. For example a recording engineer might compress the dynamics because he is aware the typical listener is going to to be listening to earbuds while riding the subway (similar situation to leaf blower). Or more likely, since louder music always sounds better the engineer might want to get the average volume as high as possible so their song will be more likely noticed and liked when played on the radio. To get the average volume up, you have to reduce the dynamic range so the loudest does not exceed the capabilities of the medium. You have likely experienced this if you have any CD's from the 80's vs modern CDs. Almost universally, I find the old CDs are not as loud as new ones. The old ones have the volume level centered between the highest peak and the lowest level a CD could contain. The new ones are compressed and then the loudest peak is raised to near the maximum volume the CD can have.

Dynamic EQ is essentially a modern sophisticated "Loudness control". Back in the day, Loudness switches were developed to counteract the loudness contour curve associated with human hearing; however, manufacturers quickly found out their gear sold best if the loudness switch provided extreme amounts of additional bass and treble (which had been very hard/expensive to obtain in the previous decade) because that is often how a buyer would evaluate a receiver/amp! Thus a good idea ultimate became a crappy execution and over time the loudness switch got a bad reputation (except Yamaha's loudness knob) and was eliminated from audio controls.
I like DEQ (with a -10dB reference), but it is easy enough to play with and see how/if it works for you. If you always listen loud, it does nothing, but when you listen with the volume down it sounds quite a bit fuller.

HTH!
I took it as commenting on my use of disc players as transports (post 19) but now see he quoted a different post.....diesel?

ps Are you talking about the "Restorer" feature for what you're calling an expansion feature? If so, other avrs have similar; my Onkyo does (called Music Optimizer).
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
ps Are you talking about the "Restorer" feature for what you're calling an expansion feature? If so, other avrs have similar; my Onkyo does (called Music Optimizer).
Yes. I knew Deisel has a Denon so kept it in that context. I believe dynamic expansion is the only trait of these "optimizers".
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Unless you can set your sub trim level to something lower than -12 that's an indication the gain on your sub is too high and you need to lower it a tad and re-run Audyssey.
how about if the amp is blown in one of the subs?

yup. something just wasn't right, and I knew it. I re-ran audyssey several times after dialing both subs back. I even turned the gains all the way down once and it still trimmed it to -12. the distance was way off too. I know the distance is never really right with the subs, but it was WAY off.

then I ran a 25hz test tone. one sub was moving a lot, and the other hardly at all. I contacted svs and they had me send a video. they agree it's the amp. I ordered the replacement and put it on a cc. they're going to refund it when they get the defective one back.

I can see how that would have thrown audyssey off. I've run it before and it didn't trim my subs back that far. I have a pretty large room and 50% gain usually gets trimmed to -6 or -7.

*edit: it's the same sub my wife kicked the cord and unplugged while it was playing when she was putting the Christmas tree up. I didn't mention that before either. didn't think it would have hurt anything.
 
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D

Diesel57

Full Audioholic
I guess we do! it works out in the end after all. lol
Customer service at it's best, it's comforting to know that when a issue takes place with a companies product that there's no haggling involved, glad it was a favorable transaction...
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
it was the sub that was in the sweet spot too. that also explains my crossover issues. I put the working one in the sweet spot and recalibrated everything. sounds quite a bit better now. I'm sure glad svs is easy to work with. their solution is reasonably fast too.

in the meantime my system still sounds pretty damned good. I should have the new amp by next wednesday, if not sooner.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
that also explains my crossover issues
Pogre, I just read thru this thread. Notwithstanding the "bad" amp, I'm not sure you're gonna find the Nirvana you seek.

In my experience, there is not one single configuration of settings that sounds best to me regardless of movie, music or volume. I like higher volume music in Direct. I like lower volume music in Stereo w/ Audyssey and 0db bass boost. I like movies in Surround w/ Audyssey and ~6dB bass boost. I like any TV show that has difficult to understand dialog in Direct. Etc, etc, etc...

Fortunately, my old Denon X4000 lets me set up these sources so I can access the various configurations w/ a single button click.

After you get equipment that all works, I suggest splitting your critical listening into categories. Maybe something like: Normal volume TV/Movies, Loud TV/Movies, Soft Music and Loud Music. Find your preference in setting for each category, and figure out how to execute that preference the most simple way from your remote.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I know perfect audio nirvana is nearly impossible. especially on my budget. the way I have my subs set up, one is in the sweet spot for the main listening position and the other is placed for more even bass response throughout the room. the one that blew is the one that was in the sweet spot. add to that, audyssey trimmed them back to -12 and I have like, very little bass at all. no wonder it sounded fuller with my mains at full range. lol. the second spot doesn't do much for the main chair.

anyway, it's sounding a lot better now that I've sleuthed things out and have a working sub back in the sweet spot. I do like your suggestion of breaking up my critical listening into categories. I need to dig a little deeper into my menu and see if I can program different settings for different situations. I do switch it up manually pretty often.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
audyssey trimmed them back to -12 and I have like, very little bass at all.
Pogre, that doesn't reflect a weakness in your system. It reflects your preference for heavy bass.

If Audyssey trimmed your subs down 12dB is was because your subs were loud relative to your other speakers. The fact that you felt it was "very little bass at all", simply means you personally like a lot of bass.

So just be careful not to confuse Audyssey with your preference. Audyssey is just a tool to give you a starting point. It says, "OK... now everything is balanced. You take it from here according to what you like." Don't be afraid to adjust to your preference. I'd be willing to bet there are very few here who leave all Audyssey settings alone.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Pogre, that doesn't reflect a weakness in your system. It reflects your preference for heavy bass.

If Audyssey trimmed your subs down 12dB is was because your subs were loud relative to your other speakers. The fact that you felt it was "very little bass at all", simply means you personally like a lot of bass.

So just be careful not to confuse Audyssey with your preference. Audyssey is just a tool to give you a starting point. It says, "OK... now everything is balanced. You take it from here according to what you like." Don't be afraid to adjust to your preference. I'd be willing to bet there are very few here who leave all Audyssey settings alone.
when I ran audyssey without the damaged sub, it didn't trim it at all. it bumped it up to +2.5. when I ran audyssey (several times) before the amp issue (as I posted earlier) it would trim it back to -6 or -7. after the amp issue when I turned the gain ALL THE WAY DOWN on BOTH subs (also posted earlier) it still trimmed them to -12.

if I have the gains turned COMPLETELY ALL THE WAY DOWN AS FAR AS THEY WILL GO... and it still trims to -12... is that my preference or is there an issue with the bad amp making a sound or pop when it runs the test tone? (or possibly an issue with my receiver which I will mention below). I have a large room and bass preference or not, -12 is not normal with the gains turned all the way down.

also... and I wasn't even going to bring this up, but I can't find anything in Google search....

sometimes when I put a song on, and this is recent, the bass is overwhelming. dangerously overwhelming to point of almost over diving the speaker. I then manually trim it to -12 and turn the gain all the way down on the 1 remaining sub and it's still almost too much. I've shut everything down and rebooted everything and I have to turn the gain back up to hear it at all. one other time I turned restorer off, then back on and it worked.

this happens with the same track from the same source. an xbox one. one time I'll play a song and it sounds right. play the same song from the same source another time and the sub is way too much. turning the gain down seems to do little to nothing. when I reboot the system or play with the restorer setting it seems to "fix" itself. there's nothing coming from the sub until I turn the gain back up to 50%.

this is not a bass preference thing. something is not right. especially if I thought my system sounded fuller (also posted earlier) with the subs turned off...?
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
as it is right now, I'm half afraid to use my sub for fear of blowing it too. I start with the volume turned way down when play anything now. I'm now suspecting it's an issue with my receiver, but I dont know enough about anything to be sure.

just to be clear... my issue now is TOO MUCH BASS, but only sometimes? I'm getting frustrated.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
when I ran audyssey without the damaged sub, it didn't trim it at all. it bumped it up to +2.5. when I ran audyssey (several times) before the amp issue (as I posted earlier) it would trim it back to -6 or -7. after the amp issue when I turned the gain ALL THE WAY DOWN on BOTH subs (also posted earlier) it still trimmed them to -12.

if I have the gains turned COMPLETELY ALL THE WAY DOWN AS FAR AS THEY WILL GO... and it still trims to -12... is that my preference or is there an issue with the bad amp making a sound or pop when it runs the test tone? (or possibly an issue with my receiver which I will mention below). I have a large room and bass preference or not, -12 is not normal with the gains turned all the way down.

also... and I wasn't even going to bring this up, but I can't find anything in Google search....

sometimes when I put a song on, and this is recent, the bass is overwhelming. dangerously overwhelming to point of almost over diving the speaker. I then manually trim it to -12 and turn the gain all the way down on the 1 remaining sub and it's still almost too much. I've shut everything down and rebooted everything and I have to turn the gain back up to hear it at all. one other time I turned restorer off, then back on and it worked.

this happens with the same track from the same source. an xbox one. one time I'll play a song and it sounds right. play the same song from the same source another time and the sub is way too much. turning the gain down seems to do little to nothing. when I reboot the system or play with the restorer setting it seems to "fix" itself. there's nothing coming from the sub until I turn the gain back up to 50%.

this is not a bass preference thing. something is not right. especially if I thought my system sounded fuller (also posted earlier) with the subs turned off...?
I missed the part where you turned the gain all the way down and Audyssey still set your subs at -12. Something is wrong in the avr would be my suspicion too. I'd run a microprocessor reset to start....
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I missed the part where you turned the gain all the way down and Audyssey still set your subs at -12. Something is wrong in the avr would be my suspicion too. I'd run a microprocessor reset to start....
it's doing it right now as I type. it's like the gain is completely bypassed. turning the knob isn't doing anything. I'm gonna try a reset right now.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
it's doing it right now as I type. it's like the gain is completely bypassed. turning the knob isn't doing anything. I'm gonna try a reset right now.
Unless you got two bad sub amps, its the way I'd lean...or did the wife knock into the second as well? J/K....sort of. I've had what sounds very much like your runaway sound volume issue, that was on an avr I had to return as resets didn't address it. Good luck!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
still doing it after the reset. I played with the gain on the sub while it was playing just now and just touching the knob without turning it made it jump from loud to quiet and back again. just tapping on the knob.

*edit: played with the gain setting and found a spot at 50% that seems to be right. ran audyssey again and the test tone for the sub was a lot quieter. it bumped it up +.5, which also sounds about right. I think I've narrowed it down to the actual gain setting on the sub itself.

it sounds good now, but if I so much as just touch the gain knob it gets WAY too loud and the only way to control it is through the trim settings.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
still doing it after the reset. I played with the gain on the sub while it was playing just now and just touching the knob without turning it made it jump from loud to quiet and back again. just tapping on the knob.

*edit: played with the gain setting and found a spot at 50% that seems to be right. ran audyssey again and the test tone for the sub was a lot quieter. it bumped it up +.5, which also sounds about right. I think I've narrowed it down to the actual gain setting on the sub itself.

it sounds good now, but if I so much as just touch the gain knob it gets WAY too loud and the only way to control it is through the trim settings.
Maybe it is another bad amp then....I'd contact SVS.
 
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