Bass Management Questions

[Pogre]

I seem to be having some issues, albeit minor, dialing in the crossover point between my ultra bookshelf speakers and my 2 sb 1000's. overall I think the system sounds very, very good, but I'm noticing when I turn the subs off and put the ultras to full range, they sound fuller. almost preferable in fact, but lacking the weight that the subs add, and definitely don't cut it for some of the more bass heavy tracks I like.

it's almost as if when I set the crossover it's robbing me of some of the mid bass that the ultras provide. they lose some of their presence and the subs aren't making it up. I've played with different crossover settings and I think 60Hz is the magic number for now. my receiver has audyssey MultiQ XT and I've run it a couple times with similar results.

Denon AVR X1200W
MultiQ XT - flat (have tried reference. prefer flat, especially for music.)
Dynamic EQ - on
Ref. Lev. Offset - 0db
Dynamic Volume - off

is it a sin to play the ultras full range? where would that set the low pass filter? would I have issues with bloated bass or whatever if I set my mains to full? audyssey actually set them that way each time I ran it.

 

[shadyJ]

You might actually be getting a better mid bass response with just the Ultras than with the SB1000s. The only way to know for sure is to take measurements. Audyssey isn't going to cut it here, you need a measurement mic and software. The SB1000s are going to be more mid bass capable, so the problem may be one of placement. Measure measure measure!

 

[Pogre]

yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm getting better mid bass response from the ultras by themselves. I've been sitting in my chair, playing with crossover settings, flipping back and forth between sub on and sub off, driving myself crazy for the last 2 days. lol. it's not a huge thing. still sounds amazing, but I'm noticing more now since I upgraded everything.

I'm gonna guess this is fairly common when someone gets their first taste of some decent speakers? the upgrade bug? I have no intentions of upgrading anything. I'm happy with my speakers. I just lack the knowledge and equipment to do precise measurements and really dial them in.

 

[lovinthehd]

Curious about the 0 setting on the reference level offset for music, have you tried changing this as is usually suggested wiith music? I'd try -10 or -15 on the reference level offset if you haven't already.

 

[Pogre]

Curious about the 0 setting on the reference level offset for music, have you tried changing this as is usually suggested wiith music? I'd try -10 or -15 on the reference level offset if you haven't already.

I have never messed with that setting, nor did I know it was recommended to dial it back for music. I thought it was more or less the reference level setting for volume? would that affect my crossover issues? what's the true purpose of it anyway?

 

[lovinthehd]

I have never messed with that setting, nor did I know it was recommended to dial it back for music. I thought it was more or less the reference level setting for volume? would that affect my crossover issues? what's the true purpose of it anyway?

The reference refers to the standard used for recording movie soundtracks, music doesn't adhere to that same standard thus a way for RLO (reference level offset) to change where the dynamic eq takes effect. Not really a crossover thing but an eq curve change thing (edit: rather the place on the volume dial where the eq curves take effect). Might be worth playing with if you're listening to music....check out Audyssey's take https://www.google.com/#q=audyssey+reference+level+offset+site:audyssey.com

 

[mthomas47]

I might actually go in a little different direction with respect to DEQ. First, how do your SB1000's sound with movies? Are you getting the bass support you want there? Second, have you raised the sub trim level from where Audyssey set it?

DEQ does add a bass boost, but many people don't like that particular feature as much for music. One thing that DEQ does is to boost the bass in all channels and not just for the sub channel. I can't answer specifically why your Ultra's seem to have more mid-bass than your subs, but there are a couple of things I would try.

First, I would turn off DEQ. (That will enable the tone controls which affect only your front speakers, if you want to selectively add some bass boost to those speakers.) Second, I would add some trim boost to your subs. Try not to get the trim over about -3, but if you started well in the negative range, that shouldn't be an issue. The subs should be able to play mid-bass much more effectively than your bookshelf speakers, but they may need a little trim boost to do it, since Audyssey originally set them to play at exactly the same volume as your other channels, and we don't hear bass frequencies as well. A +3 to +6db boost is common. Third, experiment again with both 60 and 80Hz crossovers, and if necessary, add just a little bass boost to the Ultras using the tone control. You are essentially seasoning to taste.

The Reference Level Offset is simply changing the amount of boost that DEQ applies, by changing the point at which the boost occurs relative to Reference, which is a master volume of 0.0. You can try the different RLO settings, but I would also turn DEQ off and play with the sub trim level, as suggested above, to get a good baseline. None of these changes will affect the actual EQ that Audyssey performed.

Regards,
Mike

 

[Pogre]

as far as movies go, my ears aren't nearly as well trained to hear flaws as they are with familiar music. I'm happy with the performance I'm getting from movies and tv, though I have to admit that's a secondary goal for me. music is first.

I will play with turning deq off and work with it from there. I have an option to copy audyssey's settings to manual eq, so I guess I could try that and see if I can dial it in from there. without a measuring device I'm only guessing my issues lie between 40-80Hz or so.

yes, audyssey trimmed my subs back to -12. I bumped that up to -6.5. too much more than that and the low end gets to be a bit much. I'll also play with ref offset volume too and see if that helps.

thanks for all the replies guys. once again, I'm learning new stuff.

*edit: ref offset can't be turned down. only up. 0, 5, 10, or 15 db.

 

[lovinthehd]

as far as movies go, my ears aren't nearly as well trained to hear flaws as they are with familiar music. I'm happy with the performance I'm getting from movies and tv, though I have to admit that's a secondary goal for me. music is first.

I will play with turning deq off and work with it from there. I have an option to copy audyssey's settings to manual eq, so I guess I could try that and see if I can dial it in from there. without a measuring device I'm only guessing my issues lie between 40-80Hz or so.

yes, audyssey trimmed my subs back to -12. I bumped that up to -6.5. too much more than that and the low end gets to be a bit much. I'll also play with ref offset volume too and see if that helps.

thanks for all the replies guys. once again, I'm learning new stuff.

*edit: ref offset can't be turned down. only up. 0, 5, 10, or 15 db.

Unless you can set your sub trim level to something lower than -12 that's an indication the gain on your sub is too high and you need to lower it a tad and re-run Audyssey.

 

[Pogre]

Unless you can set your sub trim level to something lower than -12 that's an indication the gain on your sub is too high and you need to lower it a tad and re-run Audyssey.

I can definitely do that. the gain on both subs is set at 50%, but svs does recommend a little less. between 10 and 12 oclock. I have it right at 12 now. I thought it was weird that audyssey dialed it back so far.

 

[lovinthehd]

I can definitely do that. the gain on both subs is set at 50%, but svs does recommend a little less. between 10 and 12 oclock. I have it right at 12 now. I thought it was weird that audyssey dialed it back so far.

It varies with the output of the avr; it's just a way to set gain....hard for SVS to know in advance where that will be precisely to get optimum level on every avr. I find with most of my commercial subs that I can set gain in the 25-40% range and still get Audyssey calibration to set trim level well into the negatives (which I aim for, so that I do have some headroom to raise it and keep risk of clipping to a minimum). Usually post Audyssey I will raise sub trim levels 2-4 dB depending on setup (and sometimes change it for a particular source with the remote).

I do prefer to use DEQ for the most part (sometimes turn it off for a particular source). I use the RLO at 5-15 range, leave it at 10 generally, for music; for some tv content at 5 or 10; movies normally 0 (altho sometimes on tv sources change it).

 

[vsound5150]

I can definitely do that. the gain on both subs is set at 50%, but svs does recommend a little less. between 10 and 12 oclock. I have it right at 12 now. I thought it was weird that audyssey dialed it back so far.

I'm running dual SB-1000's and also thought it was weird Audyssey dialed it back so far to -12db at sub gain 50%.

But it actually made sense as my setup is in a smaller room (12' x 14') for dual subs therefore shouldn't take much bass to fill the room.

I started with sub gain at 50% (12 o'clock) then tried SVS recommendation at 10 o'clock and it still came back -12db. I was thinking maybe -12db is max. and Audyssey was trying to go further so I kept adjusting to help Audyssey pull it back on its own. I tried sub gain at 9 o'clock and Audyssey came back with -9db so I left it there.

My front crossover is at 100 Hz.

 

[mthomas47]

You do want Audyssey to give you a good low trim level, down to -11.5, but not lower, because the scale simply stops at -12, and the real setting might need to be even lower. So, -9 is great, but from there if you want to add bass, you can do so by using your AVR level control up to about -3. That means you can add up to about 6db of volume to your subs using your AVR. If you want even more bass, just raise the gain level on both subs by the same amount, so that they are still level matched to each other.

The reason for adding some additional volume to the subs is because our hearing is less sensitive to bass frequencies. Audyssey's job is simply to make all of the channels play at exactly the same volume at the MLP (mic position 1) using a 75db test tone. But, after it does its job in leveling the channels, it's up to the individual user to decide how much bass he wants. You certainly don't have to raise your bass volume if you are happy with it the way it is, but you can without harming anything including the Audyssey EQ.

Regards,
Mike

 

[hosko]

I have the SVS ultras BS speakers in a 2.0 setup at home and they indeed do put out some decent mid bass. If you want to be absolutely sure your setup is as good as it can be invest in a UMIK-1 mic and use it with REW on a laptop. Measure with just the bookshelves and then measure with the subs in. It will be very obvious if there is a drop in the mid bass output. The mic is under a hundred bucks and will be handy anytime you are setting up audio equipment, you will have it nailed in under an hour. If you do it by ear you might be spending days stuffing around with it. I personally value my time so I like to do it correctly the first time and only do it once.

 

[Diesel57]

I have never messed with that setting, nor did I know it was recommended to dial it back for music. I thought it was more or less the reference level setting for volume? would that affect my crossover issues? what's the true purpose of it anyway?

If you haven't already why not give SVS a call, even though I have a 2.1 setup in stereo/flat with ref level at 10db for music is recommended for jazz and rock/pop is 15db as lovinthehd stated and since you don't have 15db try 10db...

 

[Pogre]

some great suggestions. lots of little things I can tweak and play with now that I know a little more what stuff does. dunno if I'm ready to drop a hundo on a mic though... but you never know. it might eat at me enough to do it.

thanks for the explanations on offset and how trim works with audyssey. when I get around to it, I'm gonna dial the gain back on both subs and run audyssey again. I do have a pretty large room/great room with vaulted ceilings that opens into a kitchen behind, another small room on the right and a hallway. so it could very well be my room acoustics too.

 

[lovinthehd]

Curious, you don't use any of the dynamic compression stuff (Audyssey Dynamic Volume or LFC), do you?

$75 better? http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-umm-6-usb-measurement-microphone--390-808. There are RTA phone apps, too....

 

[Pogre]

Curious, you don't use any of the dynamic compression stuff (Audyssey Dynamic Volume or LFC), do you?

$75 better? http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-umm-6-usb-measurement-microphone--390-808. There are RTA phone apps, too....

not sure what LFC is, but I never turned it on. not using dynamic volume, but I do have the restorer set on high. I stream a lot of youtube when I'm not listening to cd's. youtube sounds like poop without it.

right now I have an Xbox one for playing cd's. I don't know much about it as an audio source though. is there much difference in sound quality between cd players?

and yeah, 75 bucks is a little friendlier. might be a post christmas purchase.

 

[lovinthehd]

I use a PS3 for my main bluray/cd player, and my bluray players in other rooms, using digital connections on all to pass to receivers so they're essentially just transports. Works fine.

 

[Diesel57]

Curious, you don't use any of the dynamic compression stuff (Audyssey Dynamic Volume or LFC), do you?

$75 better? http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-umm-6-usb-measurement-microphone--390-808. There are RTA phone apps, too....

So weather its a good or lousy recording it doesn't matter which one transports it to the receiver, it is what is?