Bad Yamaha 2500 Review

[Xsound]

shinerman,
I used to think that the receiver had little to no effect on the soudnstage, until I was audtioning speakers for this purchase. I spent a day at a Tweeter that was sort of remodeling, so no one was really in the listening room. I had the room to myself for several hours. Listening to a pair of polk lsi-somethings I believe they were listed around $1200.

I wasn't able to do a double blind test, as I had to do all of the switching myself. Therefore the results are less than scientific, but it really seemed that soundstages presented themselves exactly as I reported. The Denon seemed to start at the speakers and come out in the room. The Yamaha seemed to be firmly anchored between the speakers. The Pioneer Elite seemed to start about the front of the speakers and extend behind the speakers. The Denon sounded the widest, with the Pioneer very close. The Yamaha seemed the most closely tied the placement of the speakers. The Pioneer Elite seemd the deepest. The Denon second, and the Yamaha third. the Denon seemed the brightest, the Pioneer the warmest, and the Yamaha in the middle.

The manager of the tweeter said before I went in to listen that he would be willing to bet that when it was all said and done I couldn't really tell one receiver from another. I really have to question whether I could id each in a blind test. But that day, in that setting, I had some distinct feelings about each. In all honesty, I went in wanting to like the Elite first, the Yamaha second, and the Denon 3rd. I liked the Denon much better than I thought I would. I believe the 3 are much closer than most people want to admit. I really believe that I could be happy with any of the 3, but I don't think I would enjoy either of the other more. If I were buying again, I would make the same purchase!

 

[Shinerman]

shinerman,
I used to think that the receiver had little to no effect on the soudnstage, until I was audtioning speakers for this purchase. I spent a day at a Tweeter that was sort of remodeling, so no one was really in the listening room. I had the room to myself for several hours. Listening to a pair of polk lsi-somethings I believe they were listed around $1200.

I wasn't able to do a double blind test, as I had to do all of the switching myself. Therefore the results are less than scientific, but it really seemed that soundstages presented themselves exactly as I reported. The Denon seemed to start at the speakers and come out in the room. The Yamaha seemed to be firmly anchored between the speakers. The Pioneer Elite seemed to start about the front of the speakers and extend behind the speakers. The Denon sounded the widest, with the Pioneer very close. The Yamaha seemed the most closely tied the placement of the speakers. The Pioneer Elite seemd the deepest. The Denon second, and the Yamaha third. the Denon seemed the brightest, the Pioneer the warmest, and the Yamaha in the middle.

The manager of the tweeter said before I went in to listen that he would be willing to bet that when it was all said and done I couldn't really tell one receiver from another. I really have to question whether I could id each in a blind test. But that day, in that setting, I had some distinct feelings about each. In all honesty, I went in wanting to like the Elite first, the Yamaha second, and the Denon 3rd. I liked the Denon much better than I thought I would. I believe the 3 are much closer than most people want to admit. I really believe that I could be happy with any of the 3, but I don't think I would enjoy either of the other more. If I were buying again, I would make the same purchase!

So maybe someone can asnwer, scientifically, how a receiver effects soundstage. How does a watt from the Denon effect a certain speaker differently than a watt from a Yamaha, Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo, Etc? I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't know.

Shinerman

 

[Takeereasy]

My question is this, Is there a noticble sonic difference due to the quality of the components used in these receivers aside from the amps? Assuming that an entry level Sony and an upper level Yamaha both somehow contained identical power supplies, would you hear a difference is sound quality? If so why? If not why? Please I need to know. No comments about this being stupid, I know that the pieces inside of the yamaha probably cost more, but is there an audible difference?

 

[Doug917]

There are many components inside a receiver that could produce a different sound. Different material is used to make capacitors and produces different properties. Also many different IC chips are used. While many are designed to do the same thing, they vary in quality and one may react faster or slower than another producing variances that sometimes can be heard. I own a Yammy 2500 and think it is an awesome receiver for the price (paid $759 at Ultimate Electronics locally). I think the soundstage this receiver produces engulfs the room. I do use the presence channels which definately add to this effect. I use to own a Denon 5800 and honestly enjoy the sound of the Yammy more. My two cents.

 

[Shinerman]

There are many components inside a receiver that could produce a different sound. Different material is used to make capacitors and produces different properties. Also many different IC chips are used. While many are designed to do the same thing, they vary in quality and one may react faster or slower than another producing variances that sometimes can be heard. I own a Yammy 2500 and think it is an awesome receiver for the price (paid $759 at Ultimate Electronics locally). I think the soundstage this receiver produces engulfs the room. I do use the presence channels which definately add to this effect. I use to own a Denon 5800 and honestly enjoy the sound of the Yammy more. My two cents.

I can understand how different internal components could have an effect on "sound" but I cannot understand how "soundstage" is effected. I just can't get my big head around it. I would be considered a naysayer in general but I can agree that different receivers can have some slight differences in sound. Slight! But, this is highly subjective.

Shinerman

 

[Takeereasy]

I have to say I've heard a big difference in the sound quality of receivers. I have a Sony that was not cheap (at least not cost wise). It really has trouble seperating voices from the background noises on the center channel. No the speakers weren't set up improperly. Yes everything was calibrated correctly. Yes I used the parametric EQ to boost the frequencies in question. Yes I increased the volume to the center channel. Yes I played with distances. Yes I reset my whole system and started all over. And yes, I played with the acoustics as they pertained to the room. Nothing I did made the voices sound right, especially at low volumes. I've heard my center speaker played on other receivers, never resulting in the same problem. In fact hearing what my center was truely capable of lit a fire under me. My speakers aren't overly power hungry and the sony should have driven them fine. There was nothing wrong with the receiver, but the sound for movies or other 5.1 formats was really sub-par. It left me jealous of friend's entry level Yamaha. Hearing some of the nicer receivers out there really showed me what I was missing. To be honest I don't know if there is a big difference between mid/hi end receivers, but I do know for 100% certain that there is a big difference between my Sony and some of the units you guys talk about. Oh well, only up from here.

 

[Shinerman]

I have to say I've heard a big difference in the sound quality of receivers. I have a Sony that was not cheap (at least not cost wise). It really has trouble seperating voices from the background noises on the center channel. No the speakers weren't set up improperly. Yes everything was calibrated correctly. Yes I used the parametric EQ to boost the frequencies in question. Yes I increased the volume to the center channel. Yes I played with distances. Yes I reset my whole system and started all over. And yes, I played with the acoustics as they pertained to the room. Nothing I did made the voices sound right, especially at low volumes. I've heard my center speaker played on other receivers, never resulting in the same problem. In fact hearing what my center was truely capable of lit a fire under me. My speakers aren't overly power hungry and the sony should have driven them fine. There was nothing wrong with the receiver, but the sound for movies or other 5.1 formats was really sub-par. It left me jealous of friend's entry level Yamaha. Hearing some of the nicer receivers out there really showed me what I was missing. To be honest I don't know if there is a big difference between mid/hi end receivers, but I do know for 100% certain that there is a big difference between my Sony and some of the units you guys talk about. Oh well, only up from here.

I think there are two different "kinds" of "sound" that are sometimes intertwined. Sound due to processing and sound due to the power amps. To me, these are two different things. Amps have to be able to properly drive the speakers which can effect sound and Processors have to be able to decode the information reaching the speakers correctly to get good sound. Sounds like your Sony has a poor processor that's the main culprit. But, it could be the amp as well. The fact that your receiver has trouble with the center channel sound/signal sounds like a processing problem, not necessarily an amp problem.

I guess that brings up another question. Can a processor have an effect on Soundstage? Sound can clearly be effected by the processor but what about Soundstage?

Sorry for all the questions.

Shinerman

 

[Doug917]

Sure it could. Timing has a lot to do with soundstage. Processors are the backbon of timing. Think, for instance, about acoustics where you purposely kill certain reflections so they do not arrive before of after the direct projection of sound. The processors can provide a wider soundstage if te process a higher resolution of bits. Compare a recording at 44.2 kbits and 96 kbits. The 44.2 is not nearly as dynamic and spacial as the 96 kbit recording.

 

[izub]

I think there are two different "kinds" of "sound" that are sometimes intertwined. Sound due to processing and sound due to the power amps. To me, these are two different things. Amps have to be able to properly drive the speakers which can effect sound and Processors have to be able to decode the information reaching the speakers correctly to get good sound. Sounds like your Sony has a poor processor that's the main culprit. But, it could be the amp as well. The fact that your receiver has trouble with the center channel sound/signal sounds like a processing problem, not necessarily an amp problem.

I guess that brings up another question. Can a processor have an effect on Soundstage? Sound can clearly be effected by the processor but what about Soundstage?

Sorry for all the questions.

Shinerman

I think for sure the processing affects the soundstage. When you change dsp's you get different imaging. I have always thought like you the receiver has nothing to do with soundstage. When I got my new speakers I demod several amps in my home. The sounstage changed very little although I did notice dsp had effects I would term as bright warm etc.and this was noticeable. All the amps discussed that I tried, Denon, Pioneer Elite ,Yammy were terrific. These pissing contests are, like the other poster said, a waste of time. It is all so individual. If you listen to a receiver, and it has your features, and you like the sound and price, buy it and don't look back. BTW for Xman, if you want some amazing surround speakers check out Axiom QS-8 I love em.

 

[Harmon]

shinerman,
I used to think that the receiver had little to no effect on the soudnstage, until I was audtioning speakers for this purchase. I spent a day at a Tweeter that was sort of remodeling, so no one was really in the listening room. I had the room to myself for several hours. Listening to a pair of polk lsi-somethings I believe they were listed around $1200.

I wasn't able to do a double blind test, as I had to do all of the switching myself. Therefore the results are less than scientific, but it really seemed that soundstages presented themselves exactly as I reported. The Denon seemed to start at the speakers and come out in the room. The Yamaha seemed to be firmly anchored between the speakers. The Pioneer Elite seemed to start about the front of the speakers and extend behind the speakers. The Denon sounded the widest, with the Pioneer very close. The Yamaha seemed the most closely tied the placement of the speakers. The Pioneer Elite seemd the deepest. The Denon second, and the Yamaha third. the Denon seemed the brightest, the Pioneer the warmest, and the Yamaha in the middle.

The manager of the tweeter said before I went in to listen that he would be willing to bet that when it was all said and done I couldn't really tell one receiver from another. I really have to question whether I could id each in a blind test. But that day, in that setting, I had some distinct feelings about each. In all honesty, I went in wanting to like the Elite first, the Yamaha second, and the Denon 3rd. I liked the Denon much better than I thought I would. I believe the 3 are much closer than most people want to admit. I really believe that I could be happy with any of the 3, but I don't think I would enjoy either of the other more. If I were buying again, I would make the same purchase!

Just curious were the auto-eq settings enabled or disabled on the receivers you were listening to?

 

[Xsound]

I requested that all of the receivers be set to direct/stereo, whatever mode. The person who set up the room for me said that all of them were. I requested no sub, no tone controls engaged, and no extra eq. There was something about the Pioneer that I liked, but the sound wasn't right. I liked the presentation, but the sound wasn't balanced. Switching to it from the others, it sounded like the highs and the mid-bass were boosted. I kept looking back and saw the word "stereo" in lights, so I assumed that meant no tone control. I had almost written the Pioneer off because it sounded like it had a permanent loudness button, when I actually went to the receiver and looked and saw that there was "loudness" on. In stereo, you hear the auto eq, and you can turn loudness on. In direct, all tone/eq/loudness is defeated, though you can still use subwoofer. I checked the other 2 receivers as well, but once I pushed the button to go to direct, and listened, I knew that was it. It was balanced, but on the warm side.

So yes, at one point the tone/eq settings were on. but after I went and fiddled, I got everything straight.