B&W or What?

[Joe Schmoe]

I don't get the emphasis on neutrality. What I look for is speakers that sound good to me. If they turn out to be colored, so be it. As for "frequency management", that places yet another electronic circuit (and hence another veil) between me and the music. This is why I use direct mode, to bypass as much circuitry as possible.

 

[mouettus]

I don't get the emphasis on neutrality. What I look for is speakers that sound good to me. If they turn out to be colored, so be it. As for "frequency management", that places yet another electronic circuit (and hence another veil) between me and the music. This is why I use direct mode, to bypass as much circuitry as possible.

I agree with you. Sound neutrality is sometimes as boring as a flat beer.

 

[WmAx]

I don't get the emphasis on neutrality. What I look for is speakers that sound good to me. If they turn out to be colored, so be it. As for "frequency management", that places yet another electronic circuit (and hence another veil) between me and the music. This is why I use direct mode, to bypass as much circuitry as possible.

The emphasis in neutrality is because, only when starting with a neutral speaker, can you then apply coloration exactly to your preference in a later stage. With a non-neutral speaker, the pre-existing colorations are going to prevent you from adjusting the speaker to your exact preference(s). You don't like neutrality sound? No big deal; the method I suggest allows you to apply coloration where and exactly how much that you desire. You normally are forced to live with the built-in coloration(s) of a speaker system. I make a suggestion on how to put control of that coloration in your hands.

To avoid such a management system because you think the electronics 'veil' something is nothing more than paranoia; it certainly is not supported by any credible evidence of which I'm aware. You would have to have a poorly designed or defective circuit in order to produce audibly negative effects.

-Chris

 

[Midcow2]

Actually 90db is pretty average in sensitivity.

Seriously people! I so wish people would stop posting such utter drivel!

The older B&W series like your Matrix were heavier to drive for sure but even so, B&W do not need any more power than your average 8ohm, 90dB sensitivity speaker. And like your and any other average 8ohm, 90dB sensitivity speaker, the power they need will depend on how loud you want them to go, how big and lively your room is, and how far you sit from them.

The sensitivity measurement is how much power it takes to drive a speaker to produce the same SPL (Sound Pressure levle). Basically all speakers with a sensitivity of 90dB will require the same power.

However 90dB is a fairly efficient speaker and but will require a reasonable sized amplifier- 100-125 rms per channel.

Depending on the specifics and size of the room a decent high end AVR should be sufficient. See the link for calculating the actual power needed.
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[Joe Schmoe]

However 90dB is a fairly efficient speaker and but will require a reasonable sized amplifier- 100-125 rms per channel.

Depends on how loud you like it. I have driven 87dB speakers with a 15 watt/ch amp, with good results.

 

[mouettus]

Amplification is like car engines. People tend to buy too big for no use. Oh once in a while you have to pass this freight on the highway but eh... 100 watts is a lot of output power in a speaker.

I'm driving RC-10s with 50 good watts and I can tell you it's plenty.


For B&W, I agree. The price gap between is too much between the 600 and the 700. That's why I went with the RC-70. Right between the two.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

The emphasis in neutrality is because, only when starting with a neutral speaker, can you then apply coloration exactly to your preference in a later stage. With a non-neutral speaker, the pre-existing colorations are going to prevent you from adjusting the speaker to your exact preference(s). You don't like neutrality sound? No big deal; the method I suggest allows you to apply coloration where and exactly how much that you desire. You normally are forced to live with the built-in coloration(s) of a speaker system. I make a suggestion on how to put control of that coloration in your hands.

To avoid such a management system because you think the electronics 'veil' something is nothing more than paranoia; it certainly is not supported by any credible evidence of which I'm aware. You would have to have a poorly designed or defective circuit in order to produce audibly negative effects.

-Chris

Well, the flat speaker + electronic processing approach works for you, so that is fine. I will always prefer the speakers I enjoy + minimal electronics approach, especially for 2-channel. (Since I can find speakers I enjoy for a lot less than truly neutral speakers, and since good but simple electronics cost a lot less than complex processors, my approach is also far more cost effective.)

 

[zumbo]

To the OP, I do hope you know the cost to own B&W. They are of the best, and their price reflects it. Axiom is not even in the same class. You could, however, purchase MB Quart direct from Audioholics. You get a free extended warranty, and 30 day return. I promise you, you will not return them. B&W was my speaker of choice, but the price was too high. My Quarts price were equal to the 600 series at the time. My Quarts sound quality fell between the 700 series, and the 800 series at the time. Very, very, similar sound.

http://store.audioholics.com/search?xBrand=MB+Quart&xPriceFrom=0&xPriceTo=0&xSort=&xPage=10000

 

[fredk]

Its funny how this discussion goes around in circles.

If you add to this the 90% rule, some speakers will give you 90% of the performance of xxx for 50% of the price, your value proposition tilts the decision in favour of other speakers... for some people.

So, it still comes down to listening and deciding where the value lies for you.

If the OP hears value in the B&Ws they are the best choice for him. You do owe it to yourself to be open to, and listen to various options before you decide.

FWIW, if you can shape the sound of something like a 705 with equalization, you can be similarly successful in taming the 'forward' nature of a speaker like the M80 with the very same equalization... if thats what you want.

Chris. Is there anything in particular that makes the Ascend Seirra 1 easier to modify to tame cabinet resonance, or are the mods you suggest something that can be applied to any speaker?

 

[fredk]

FWIW, I did a bunch of reading on the high end B&Ws last night. They sound like the antithesis (sp??) of Bose.

If I ever win the lottery, the 801 will go on my must audition list.

Fred

 

[usfscaptain14]

The emphasis in neutrality is because, only when starting with a neutral speaker, can you then apply coloration exactly to your preference in a later stage. With a non-neutral speaker, the pre-existing colorations are going to prevent you from adjusting the speaker to your exact preference(s). You don't like neutrality sound? No big deal; the method I suggest allows you to apply coloration where and exactly how much that you desire. You normally are forced to live with the built-in coloration(s) of a speaker system. I make a suggestion on how to put control of that coloration in your hands.

To avoid such a management system because you think the electronics 'veil' something is nothing more than paranoia; it certainly is not supported by any credible evidence of which I'm aware. You would have to have a poorly designed or defective circuit in order to produce audibly negative effects.

-Chris

This is exactly what i would end up trying to do with any speaker. I alway's have had a nature for perfection. Now granted my idea of perfection differs from others. Isnt' that why we all had the bright lighted equalizers in the 80's ? And didn't we all set that EQ to just the right setting? But then you got to your freinds house and when he wasn't looking youd mess with his EQ and then He'd fly off the handle.

I think what Chris has suggested is the Right set up for me. Thanks!

 

[zumbo]

FWIW, I did a bunch of reading on the high end B&Ws last night. They sound like the antithesis (sp??) of Bose.

If I ever win the lottery, the 801 will go on my must audition list.

Fred

It is my humble, and honest opinion, that B&W is the premium speaker company. Hearing is believing. The build quality alone, is perfection. If you have haven't auditioned B&W 800 series, you owe it to yourself to do so.

 

[AdrianMills]

It is my humble, and honest opinion, that B&W is the premium speaker company. Hearing is believing. The build quality alone, is perfection. If you have haven't auditioned B&W 800 series, you owe it to yourself to do so.

I think you should reread his post and then grab a dictionary and look up "antithesis".

Hm, I see you did and edited after I read and before I pressed quote.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...As for "frequency management", that places yet another electronic circuit (and hence another veil) between me and the music. This is why I use direct mode, to bypass as much circuitry as possible.

Amen, brother!

That's what I preach too!

Source Direct, Pure Direct, Direct Stream Digital, and nothing but Direct.

 

[usfscaptain14]

Because im still very ignorant at this point. I'm wondering just how difficult it will be to work a DSP. Are they very user freindly? Will i just use it to adjust the main's or all the speakers in a 7.1 set up?

Jason

 

[fredk]

I'm glad You've found what you are looking for Chris.

zumbo. I don't have the cash to plunk down on anything in the 800 line so for now, and for my own good, I am going to stay clear.

Fred

 

[zumbo]

zumbo. I don't have the cash to plunk down on anything in the 800 line so for now, and for my own good, I am going to stay clear.

Fred

That's usually the case when someone states they want B&W, but haven't auditioned them. They usually are not aware of the price. The 600 series are very competitively priced, but the older MB Quarts are better in build quality, and sound. I have the older Quarts. They can be had (new) for 1k per pair. That is half the price of the new models, and the new models are certainly not twice as good. The center would run you about $550. So, a 5 speaker system would be around $2550. Not including a sub. This is pretty close in price to the B&W 600 series.

You have to pay the cost to be the boss.

 

[Demonster]

.

The best speakers of which I am aware, overall, for a budget oriented system, are the Ascend Seirra 1 and B&W 705, with the 705 having superior over-all linearity. Both have somewhat lower resonance cabinets than most other speakers in their class. The 705 would be the ideal here, but it does cost 2x more than the Sierra, which compromises somewhat in overall linearity. But both are linear enough to be used successfully when paired with a loudspeaker management system. If further savings are needed, one can inject a little elbow grease, and purchase a speaker with superb linearity such as the Ascend CBM-170(on par with the B&W 705 in this regard) that sells for a very low price($350/pair). The problem here is the cabinet is highly resonant, just like most speaker systems. Cabinet resonance causes a coloration on all sounds played through the speaker - thus is a form of distortion. You can, if you are up to some work, you can modify the internals of such a speaker as the CBM-170, and end up with a highly linear speaker with very low resonance cabinet for very low cost. I can elaborate if requested to do so.

-Chris

This might be an outstanding option for me I have a full woodworking shop, build furniture in my spare time and have $60k of french oak dying for a new project. Would it be possible to eloborate in such a way in the forum to provide the details necessary to accomplish B&W (or better) quality using the Ascend CBM-170 or another speaker with better begining drivers for an even better speaker (I am budgeting 3-4k for speakers)? This would allow for some seriously beautiful speakers as an end point for me and certianly the wife would like it better as it would match some of the furniture already built. And perhaps there is an pportunity to increase the speaker quality significantly for the same budget?!?

 

[WmAx]

This might be an outstanding option for me I have a full woodworking shop, build furniture in my spare time and have $60k of french oak dying for a new project. Would it be possible to eloborate in such a way in the forum to provide the details necessary to accomplish B&W (or better) quality using the Ascend CBM-170 or another speaker with better begining drivers for an even better speaker (I am budgeting 3-4k for speakers)? This would allow for some seriously beautiful speakers as an end point for me and certianly the wife would like it better as it would match some of the furniture already built. And perhaps there is an pportunity to increase the speaker quality significantly for the same budget?!?

I should point out for you: B&W sells their drivers and crossover for their speakers to anyone. The price is very reasonable based on my prior inquries. They charge about the same as you would expect to pay for equivalent quality DIY drivers from Madisound or other similar source.

You could for example, build a pair of 705s(or other B&W speakers) using your own cabinets. The catch is, you need to keep the cabinet front and shape somewhat similar and very close(within 1/4") in size, as the crossover was designed with these variables in mind. This extends to width and upper portion where the mid/tweeter reside. You can modify the lower portion, not near the drivers, to increase height or other aspects. You need a local place that sells the speaker you want to build, so that you can measure these physical characteristics. In addition, you would need a Dayton Woofer Tester 3; it's a USB connected tool that measures T&S parameters of the woofer/midbass. This will be required information(T&S Parameters) in order to determine port design and internal volume. Also keep in mind that you could not easily build an 802D, for example, if you bought the drivers/xovers. The shape of the baffle of the mid itself, would be difficult to copy. Then their is the issue of - the 802D uses an advanced cabinet construction to have virtually zero resonances in the passbands of the drivers used in each of the respective enclosure system. If you were to build a cabinet that copied the external shapes closely enough; then if the cabinet were resonant(as most speakers systems are), it would result in a completely inferior speaker as compared to a factory manufactured 802 cabinet system. The 705 mid/tweeter and xover, I think, would be a good starting point, as the enclosure shape is much easier to copy on the upper portion. You could add a high quality woofer and active crossover to an extended length cabinet design for it - making a full size 3 way.

A DIY design is also possible, using your own selection of drivers, but to build a very high quality speaker from your own design requires a vast knowledge of the subjects related to this area of technology. In addition, even most veteran DIYers do not have very high skill in producing speakers that are of high performance in regards to the critical areas as dictated by the scientific studies on human perception in regards to loudspeaker performance, and I don't know of a single DIY design published online that could begin to compare overall to a design like the 802D, for example.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Because im still very ignorant at this point. I'm wondering just how difficult it will be to work a DSP. Are they very user freindly? Will i just use it to adjust the main's or all the speakers in a 7.1 set up?

Jason

The Behringer DCX unit comes with extremely easy to use GUI software. You can connect a serial cable to your computer and then to back of the DCX and make adjustments. If you want to use a laptop that does not have a serial connection, you can buy a cheap USB to Serial adapter. You can also use the front panel of the DCX directly to make adjustments; but it's not as clear to a new user, or even to an advanced one, as using the GUI software. I'll help you with set up as best I can if you get one of these units.

You can go to Behringer.com and find the DCX2496 product page and download the software from there. You can run the software in virtual mode to see how it operates.

-Chris