AVR vs 2-channel amp

[ifsixwasnin9]

Have pr of JBL and thinking of getting either large Denon AVR or Sony F555ESG amp. Denon is 130wpc and Sony 120wpc both with excellent reviews. Have little money and Denon is $300. Which should I consider?
Here is review of Denon 4306:

 

[lovinthehd]

The avr has the bass management and multiple speaker options. I don't find much on the Sony "amp" with your detail, tho. What are the particular concerns?

 

[lovinthehd]

FWIW I use similar speakers (JBL 4311B) with a Denon 3808

 

[TLS Guy]

Have pr of JBL and thinking of getting either large Denon AVR or Sony F555ESG amp. Denon is 130wpc and Sony 120wpc both with excellent reviews. Have little money and Denon is $300. Which should I consider?
Here is review of Denon 4306:

View attachment 79465

What is the application you intend for these units?

If it is AV obviously the Denon is your only option.

If this is audio only then the Sony is the clear winner. Those were great units and reliable.

 

[lovinthehd]

What is the application you intend for these units?

If it is AV obviously the Denon is your only option.

If this is audio only then the Sony is the clear winner. Those were great units and reliable.

What a silly conclusion. But you're you.

 

[TLS Guy]

What a silly conclusion. But you're you.

Explain, and as usual you are uncouth.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd say your reply was more uncouth as it had no actual reasoning included. You don't like avrs, we get it. If bass management comes into the picture no way the integrated amp is even playing with the same deck. It's not particularly powerful....you have some distinguishing measurements?

Explain, and as usual you are uncouth.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'd say your reply was more uncouth as it had no actual reasoning included. You don't like avrs, we get it. If bass management comes into the picture no way the integrated amp is even playing with the same deck. It's not particularly powerful....you have some distinguishing measurements?

No, just a lot of experience. Bass management is not an issue as he has no sub that he lists. As far as I can tell this is an old school straight stereo system. If that is the case, and it seems to be, then an AVR is not the best option. Obviously if it is an AV system the Denon is the obvious choice. If however if it is not for AV, then that Sony unit is by far the best buy for that situation.

I realize that receivers are an option for the many, but unless you have to, they are not the best option. High gain circuits are not optimal when in the same case sharing the same power supply. Peter Walker convinced me of that years ago, and he never designed or produced one. He was not infrequently asked if Quad would produce a receiver and his answer was always a curt NO! The rise of the active speaker will remedy this situation.

Even AV pre/pros have not been optimal as they shared too much design with receivers. My previous two pre.pros were a disaster as channels have prolifereated. My AV10 which is not related to an AVR has been pure joy and really brought this system to a sonic level of which it has always been capable.

Marantz have now cancelled all those AVPs that were receiver based and with good reason.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What is the application you intend for these units?

For playing very GIANT PRO speakers attached to a helicopter - to play extremely loud sounds to attract a TITAN the size of Godzilla.

Way off topic, but there was a scene in the TV series of "Monarch" about Godzilla, King Kong, etc., where they were using an AVR or Integrated Amp to play these giant speakers. Of course, the AVR/amp blew up.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Don't forget that one famous 1-ohm bench torture test where the Denon AVR-3000 series passed where most amps failed!

Definitely get the MCH-AVR like the Denon 3000/4000 AVR series since they will likely have more power output into 2Ch Driven. The Denon AVR-4310 could output 258W x 2Ch into 4 ohms.

 

[Alex2507]

The Denon AVR-4310 could output 258W x 2Ch into 4 ohms.

I gave that the Informative tag but there should be a tag for Misleading, Mr. 4 Ohm ... was it even 20 Hz - 20k Hz?

The initial spec made me wonder about my own rec'r and in the spirit of making more out of something than is actually there I'll share that mine has this going for it:

Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive) 260 W

You didn't even include the distortion spec ... tisk, tisk.

 

[PENG]

Marantz have now cancelled all those AVPs that were receiver based and with good reason.

You got to be joking right? The AV30 appears to share a large part of the preamp/dac/dsp with the Cinema 30/40/50 AVRs. Not so much the AV10 and AV20, but even the top model AV10 shares the same DAC, DSP and volume control ICs with the AVRs. In terms of circuitry, they all have similar looking block diagrams, with some differences in the detailes/devils.

But I guess it depends on what you meant by "receiver based.." You can certainly define it in a way (example, they might have similar dimension enclosures but since there don't have the power amp section, and smaller power supplies so they don't just use an AVR without connecting the preamp outputs to the power amp inputs) that you could be right in stating it the way you did, but that would be just for argument sake.

 

[PENG]

I gave that the Informative tag but there should be a tag for Misleading, Mr. 4 Ohm ... was it even 20 Hz - 20k Hz?

The initial spec made me wonder about my own rec'r and in the spirit of making more out of something than is actually there I'll share that mine has this going for it:

Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive) 260 W

You didn't even include the distortion spec ... tisk, tisk.

That's fair, but to compare the two using the 20-20kHz criteria, we could use the following and can reasonably expect thee two are roughly equal based on their power amp performance. The Sony has a slight edge in terms specified THD but a) it is much older so performance might have deteriorated more, and b) Denon AVRs, their more recent models, all still have the same THD specs but measured a lot better than the specified 0.05% on the ASR bench, so again reasonable to say they are practically as good for hifi use. The Denon's power supply has the edge in terms of raw "power" when used in 2 channel stereo applications. The 4306 that the OP referred to is obviously more powerful than the 4310 but practically would make little difference.

AVR-4310: 130 W, 8 ohms, 0.05%
Sony TA F555 ESG: 100 W, 8 ohms, 0.004% THD

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I gave that the Informative tag but there should be a tag for Misleading, Mr. 4 Ohm ... was it even 20 Hz - 20k Hz?

The initial spec made me wonder about my own rec'r and in the spirit of making more out of something than is actually there I'll share that mine has this going for it:

Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive) 260 W

You didn't even include the distortion spec ... tisk, tisk.

Bastards.

Denon AVR-4310CI A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures

HT Labs Measures Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 113.8 watts 1% distortion at 131.0 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 104.6 watts 1% distortion at 116.6 watts Analog frequency response in Pure Direct mode: –0.51...

www.soundandvision.com

 

[lovinthehd]

No, just a lot of experience. Bass management is not an issue as he has no sub that he lists. As far as I can tell this is an old school straight stereo system. If that is the case, and it seems to be, then an AVR is not the best option. Obviously if it is an AV system the Denon is the obvious choice. If however if it is not for AV, then that Sony unit is by far the best buy for that situation.

I realize that receivers are an option for the many, but unless you have to, they are not the best option. High gain circuits are not optimal when in the same case sharing the same power supply. Peter Walker convinced me of that years ago, and he never designed or produced one. He was not infrequently asked if Quad would produce a receiver and his answer was always a curt NO! The rise of the active speaker will remedy this situation.

Even AV pre/pros have not been optimal as they shared too much design with receivers. My previous two pre.pros were a disaster as channels have prolifereated. My AV10 which is not related to an AVR has been pure joy and really brought this system to a sonic level of which it has always been capable.

Marantz have now cancelled all those AVPs that were receiver based and with good reason.

Still not a lot of fact here. LOL you were quite happy with your pre-pros. The new one am not convinced is an audible difference even to a golden ear like yourself.

 

[Alex2507]

The new one am not convinced is an audible difference even to a golden ear like yourself.

You can't help yourself, can you? I'm starting to think you have a crush on him.

Bastards.

Oh wow, that's very detailed. It took me a minute to unravel the numbers.

The 155 watts into 8 Ohm at 0.1% distortion is a fair and somewhat standard point of comparison IMO. I feel like179 watts at 1% is already in the danger zone for audibility and safe amp operation.

The only reason I care is that my current rec'r claims 150 watts into 8 Ohms at 0.05% distortion. You've gotten me to hunt down a Sound and Vision test bench graph for mine which shows that to be a slight exaggeration but a more important consideration is why am I even doing this at 5:00 AM? I don't think this is healthy.

The 4306 that the OP referred to is obviously more powerful than the 4310 but practically would make little difference.

And there's the lesson it took me seemingly forever to understand. Going from 100 watts to 150 watts translates to 1.5 db at a volume that I would already never listen at in the real world. The OP already has a thread on sound proofing a bedroom wall in an apartment so power is not likely to be an issue.

Going back to the original point of the thread, I take it that you share ADTG's view of choosing the Denon over the Sony?

Definitely get the MCH-AVR like the Denon

I think an integrated amp like the Sony is cool AF. My concern would be age. The condition of the remote control and I think they call them 'pots' in the volume knob. That crackly noise some older units make when turning the knob. That unit would have to be super clean for me to turn away from the likely better performing Denon.

 

[PENG]

The only reason I care is that my current rec'r claims 150 watts into 8 Ohms at 0.05% distortion. You've gotten me to hunt down a Sound and Vision test bench graph for mine which shows that to be a slight exaggeration but a more important consideration is why am I even doing this at 5:00 AM? I don't think this is healthy.

For bragging right, based on S&V try the 4308, that I had, but gave it away when I upgraded/downgraded:

Almost 200 W @0.1% THD+N!! Beat a ton of integrated amps. How did it do it? I guess S&V made a mistake, didn't look like typo though as it was collaborated in the text/narrative. Or, for that particular test, the guy might have for some reason, held the voltage constant, say a setup left over from another test he did, just guessing..

here's a slightly clearer one:

The other really powerful upper midrange but not flagship class like the (RX-Z11, or 5308CI, 5805CI) ones as measured by Yamaha, is something like the RX-A3060, 2060.

RX-Z11, 311 W at 0.1% THD+N, into 4 ohms.

 

[Alex2507]

when I upgraded/downgraded:

You still can't make up your mind, huh?

Those numbers are insane. Plenty of stand alone amps have lower ratings. I happen to have a few! It's odd that cheap rec'rs that could really benefit from external amplification tend to not have the pre amp outputs.

 

[PENG]

You still can't make up your mind, huh?

Those numbers are insane. Plenty of stand alone amps have lower ratings. I happen to have a few! It's odd that cheap rec'rs that could really benefit from external amplification tend to not have the pre amp outputs.

That was the first time I switched to a Marantz AVP, the lowly AV7005, so now you understand why I could decide it was an upgrade or downgrade right? Later I upgraded to the AV8801 that would be more like an upgrade because it was Marantz to Marantz flagship AVP of the time, then I switched back to AVR, the X4400H, that again wasn't really an upgraded obviously, but felt like it was when I like the sound effects more than I did with the Marantz.

 

[PENG]

Those numbers are insane. Plenty of stand alone amps have lower ratings. I happen to have a few! It's odd that cheap rec'rs that could really benefit from external amplification tend to not have the pre amp outputs.

And then of course we now have the 70 lbs+ AVR-A1H, @TLS Guy really need to show some, even just a little, respect to AVRs. Peter Walker might have hard time resisting to launch his own if he's alive today, you never say never right.