P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If there is unlikely to be a noticeable difference in sound notwithstanding any measurement differences, I am probably inclined to keep it. I could also buy a 3600 for comparison purposes and keep the one I like most, but again, if the sound is going to be essentially the same, it seems like it would be an unnecessary waste of time.
Put it this way, in a double blind test, level matched, using analog input in pure direct mode with both operating well below their power output limit, there will be no noticeable difference with 99.999% certainty. Yes the Marantz had more measured THD+N but low enough to be below the threshold of audibility.

Using digital input, also in pure direct mode, under some conditions only, if you have super hearing, you may notice the very slight high frequency roll off that would start from 10 kHz up, down about 2-2.5 dB by the time it hits 20,000 Hz. Apparently most people over 40 won't likely notice such minor roll off.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you, if that's the one he referred to, I actually did know about it but chose to ignore it (didn't bother reading the article) at the time as it won't affect me:D. Because of that, I somehow forgot, it's easy to forget things that don't affect me, sometimes. Instead I had that downmix bug in my memory after posts after posts on ASR, from people whining about it for a long time..:D
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Thank you, if that's the one he referred to, I actually did know about it but chose to ignore it (didn't bother reading the article) at the time as it won't affect me:D. Because of that, I somehow forgot, it's easy to forget things that don't affect me, sometimes. Instead I had that downmix bug in my memory after posts after posts on ASR, from people whining about it for a long time..:D
Not sure anyone should buy an AVR that’s going to need shipped back for HDMI repairs sooner or later. Just my opinion though.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
This whole HDMI 2.1 SNAFU is pretty bad.
To be fair, I know I don't really need it. Now or even in the next 2-3 years.
It sucks mostly from the standpoint that all the video upgrades have been building up to this confluence... 8K, Next Gen Consoles, HDMI...

I know for myself, the 2019 models are all I need for the GreatRoom in my home. It will never be the cutting edge center I want it to be, namely cos the Lady simply doesn't care. That's why I have my private room. :)
But that's where the upgrade hurts. Fortunately, the 2.1 doesn't yet affect the HTP-1 which is my favorite to switch to once I decide to get away from my Marantz.
For me, I know that will be a long haul upgrade when I do it. So getting 2.1 for the next 10 years will be important, I think.
But for the short term... it is pointless to pursue that upgrade.
The sad thing is that most people are hell-bent on it because of the new Consoles, imo, and the 'promise' of a better experience. Frustrating, yes. But it won't ruin the experience. ;)
 
T

TechToys2

Audioholic
Put it this way, in a double blind test, level matched, using analog input in pure direct mode with both operating well below their power output limit, there will be no noticeable difference with 99.999% certainty. Yes the Marantz had more measured THD+N but low enough to be below the threshold of audibility.

Using digital input, also in pure direct mode, under some conditions only, if you have super hearing, you may notice the very slight high frequency roll off that would start from 10 kHz up, down about 2-2.5 dB by the time it hits 20,000 Hz. Apparently most people over 40 won't likely notice such minor roll off.
Thank you. Well, I am over 40, so ....

I connected it last night and did a very rough manual setup. After I realized that I had the subwoofer connected to the wrong input, it sounded great :) . If I did decide to return it, I think it would likely be to go up a level and get the most recent tech in the Denon 4700H or maybe even to consider an Anthem. But while I haven't spent enough time with it yet, I doubt spending the extra money would gain much, if anything, for my situation. And I haven't even run Audyssey.

It has been quite a while since I purchased a new AVR and there are a ton of features and menu options, so I have. a lot of exploring and reading to do.
 
T

TechToys2

Audioholic
Thank you, if that's the one he referred to, I actually did know about it but chose to ignore it (didn't bother reading the article) at the time as it won't affect me:D. Because of that, I somehow forgot, it's easy to forget things that don't affect me, sometimes. Instead I had that downmix bug in my memory after posts after posts on ASR, from people whining about it for a long time..:D
Yes, that's what I was referring to. It won't affect me either. I'm not a gamer.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Not a hardcore gamer either but curious about PS5 with a UHD drive.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Not sure anyone should buy an AVR that’s going to need shipped back for HDMI repairs sooner or later. Just my opinion though.
It does seem more risky to buy first year models that just adopted the latest major version upgrade such as 4K/HDMI2.0 a few years ago (I bought the AV8801 and Oppo BDP-105, both have the older 4K version that turned out to be not very useful at all..), and now the 8 K, HDMI/2.1.

The 2021 or even 2022 models would likely have the bugs fixed. May be we should start recommending the likes of RX-A3080, AVR-X3600H, X4500H, X8500H, SR6014, SR7013 etc., if deep discounts are available for those updated models, to people who can't wait for the 2021 models.:rolleyes:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If I did decide to return it, I think it would likely be to go up a level and get the most recent tech in the Denon 4700H or maybe even to consider an Anthem. But while I haven't spent enough time with it yet, I doubt spending the extra money would gain much, if anything, for my situation. And I haven't even run Audyssey.
Just a cautionary note, if you go with Anthem's, you will likely lose instead of gain and expect to pay more. Those ASR bench tests don't lie, even the top dog MRX-1120 could not compete with Denon's in almost all test categories. Yes, the difference (worse test results) won't likely be audible to anyone, but why pay more for more THD+N, IMD etc.. Anthem ARC allows more user customization than Audyssey, but now the $20 Audyssey Editor App has levelled the playing field and with the availability of the 3rd party UI, the Ratbuddyssey, imo I would actually prefer it to the PC based Anthem ARC UI.
 
B

bommai

Audioholic Intern
I just bought a Yamaha TSR-700 for my living room. I used to have a NaD T775H that went into protection mode and won’t recover. I have a 5.1 setup with Infinity R263 and RC263 for LCR and Sony core for surrounds. I have an elemental Designs sub. I just bought a 85” Sony x900h tv. Currently the Yamaha is working fine. No bugs for me.

In my main media room, I have a denon x4300h in a 7.2.4 configuration with a nad t763 acting as a power amp. I have JBL 590 for LCR. I have an epson 5040ub with a 150” screen. I do my serious watching and listening here as it is a more controlled room. I like the audyssey xt32 in the denon.

Does the denon x3600h or marantz 6014 offer anything better than the x4300h? I was thinking may be I could sell the x4300h and get the x3600h or the Marantz or move the x4300h to the living room and return my Yamaha. I only paid $400 for the Yamaha from Costco but I guess I don’t mind paying another $400 if it is going to be noticeably better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
T

TechToys2

Audioholic
Just a cautionary note, if you go with Anthem's, you will likely lose instead of gain and expect to pay more. Those ASR bench tests don't lie, even the top dog MRX-1120 could not compete with Denon's in almost all test categories. Yes, the difference (worse test results) won't likely be audible to anyone, but why pay more for more THD+N, IMD etc.. Anthem ARC allows more user customization than Audyssey, but now the $20 Audyssey Editor App has levelled the playing field and with the availability of the 3rd party UI, the Ratbuddyssey, imo I would actually prefer it to the PC based Anthem ARC UI.
Yes, but it will impress my friends and look cool! :) (I'm seriously only joking). I suspect you are right. And replacing the receiver sometime down the road as the tech continues to evolve and mature will be less of a concern if I paid less for the the AVR to start. Do you think there is any particular advantage to going with a 4500H, 4700H or 7013? Aside from s few added features, would the little bit of extra power be noticeable?
 
V

VMPS-TIII

Audioholic General
Yes, but it will impress my friends and look cool! :) (I'm seriously only joking). I suspect you are right. And replacing the receiver sometime down the road as the tech continues to evolve and mature will be less of a concern if I paid less for the the AVR to start. Do you think there is any particular advantage to going with a 4500H, 4700H or 7013? Aside from s few added features, would the little bit of extra power be noticeable?
The items upgraded from the Denon 3600 to the 4700 may or may not be important to you. The 4700 offers Auro 3D. I really like this 3D imaging of Height speakers. It's not an option on the 3xxx versions.

The 4700 also offers HDR10+, Dynamic HDR, 8K Upscaling, 8K Passthrough not found on the 3600. (Game boxes are having issues with 8K HDMI chipset as we know)

These items are also available on the 4700 - AL32 Processing Multichannel, 2 line display instead of 1, Gold plated RCA terminals, 710W power supply vs 660W, Bluetooth version 4.2.

Otherwise, these two units work almost identical. The Denon 3600 at $799 is an absolute steal compared to the 4700. I would miss the Auro-3D option and the 2 line readout but for half the price who cares. You will only miss Auro-3D if you had it before. :cool:

 
T

TechToys2

Audioholic
The items upgraded from the Denon 3600 to the 4700 may or may not be important to you. The 4700 offers Auro 3D. I really like this 3D imaging of Height speakers. It's not an option on the 3xxx versions.

The 4700 also offers HDR10+, Dynamic HDR, 8K Upscaling, 8K Passthrough not found on the 3600. (Game boxes are having issues with 8K HDMI chipset as we know)

These items are also available on the 4700 - AL32 Processing Multichannel, 2 line display instead of 1, Gold plated RCA terminals, 710W power supply vs 660W, Bluetooth version 4.2.

Otherwise, these two units work almost identical. The Denon 3600 at $799 is an absolute steal compared to the 4700. I would miss the Auro-3D option and the 2 line readout but for half the price who cares. You will only miss Auro-3D if you had it before. :cool:

Thanks. To be clear, as noted above, I have the Marantz 6014 currently (purchased at $899 before the 3600 discount), not the the Denon 3600. I assume you need to be using height channels for Auro 3D and it doesn't work as a virtualization? I have only a 5.1 system, so I don't think that would be useful to me.

The 2 line display and HDR10+ would be nice (although my current TV and Roku wouldn't currently be able to take advantage of the latter, so it would only be a matter of providing a bit of future proofing). I suspect the 4700 will be coming down in price, but at the current $800-$900 premium over the 6014 and 3600, it doesn't seem like a very cost effective alternative, I suppose.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes, but it will impress my friends and look cool! :) (I'm seriously only joking). I suspect you are right. And replacing the receiver sometime down the road as the tech continues to evolve and mature will be less of a concern if I paid less for the the AVR to start. Do you think there is any particular advantage to going with a 4500H, 4700H or 7013? Aside from s few added features, would the little bit of extra power be noticeable?
Not really, while those would give you about 0.5 to 1 dB more juice, you can offset the effects by simply setting your volume 1 dB lower. That is, if your highest volume setting when using the 3600, 6014 is -10, then if you go with the 4500 or 7013, you could go up to -9 without degradation in distortions, and vice versa. For the extra juice to be meaningful, you need to use them with an external power amp rated at least 200 WPC, such as the Monolith, Outlaw, and Anthem's >200 W power amps. Even then, you will only gain about 3 dB more spl at the same distortions level at the most, and if you don't need the extra juice then there will be no audible effects if you go by ears only (okay, I am joking, but am somewhat serious too..)

Below are just my thoughts on the "whys", please feel free to ignore if not interested:

It is true that "all amps don't sound the same" if expressed as a general statement, but they do practically speaking once you get pass the point of diminishing return. Thanks to bench test sites such as ASR, we finally get to see while mid range AVRs are " higher compromised in terms of build quality", mostly due to having too many things jammed in one box and incurring higher costs in implementing many features, paying for the associated licensing fees etc., their amp sections are actually very comparable to separates with similar output ratings. Measurements don't lie, die hard audiophiles just refused to believe in certain facts such as:

- Extra power (I prefer "juice, or current, but okay say power..) not used cannot affect "sound quality", it just sits there and ready to help if and when called for.
- Distortions, harmonic, intermodulation etc., noise affects "sound quality" but only if above the threshold of audibility. Example, if your room's noise floor is 35 dB, and the max spl you listen to is 100 dB from you seating positions, then whether the THD+N is -80 dB or -100 dB will no matter to you, that's math, science.. 100 dB - 80 dB is 20 dB, THD would be at least 15 dB below your noise level, how can it have any effect??

Yes there are things that are not measured on those test benches, but that's because there is no point to measure things that don't matter, not that they can' be measured. Amps are designed by people who know the science, including how to take the necessary measurements to confirm the design goals are met, power amps are not that complicated, and have been build for too many years to have any available magic left, aside from the ways to have better efficiencies in terms of heat, weight, and energy consumption, without sacrificing accuracy.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you. Well, I am over 40, so ....
Haha, found out it is supposed to be worse for men:

.

"The range shrinks during life,[14] usually beginning at around age of eight with the upper frequency limit being reduced. Women typically experience a lesser degree of hearing loss than men, with a later onset. Men have approximately 5 to 10 dB greater loss in the upper frequencies by age 40. "

We should start recommending Denon to men and Marantz to women!
 
T

TechToys2

Audioholic
All very helpful stuff. Thanks everyone.
 
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