AVR and Speaker Crossovers

Teetertotter?

Teetertotter?

Senior Audioholic
With AVR auto room calibration, the crossovers are: L/R - 40 Hz / Center Channel - 40Hz / Side Surrounds - 80Hz /
When I change the AVR manual setting to 80HZ for the 5 speakers, I don't hear any difference in sound production.
The Subwoofer stays at 120Hz for both settings.

Is one crossover setting better than the other, supposedly? I watch DTV with 5.1 sound whether for regular TV or Movie apps I subscribe to.








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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If your avr uses Audyssey (I see you use Denon), it's not Audyssey particularly doing that but rather the avr manufacturer overriding their original suggestion (of speakers set to small/80hz xover to start), and is chosen based on an f3 as measured for particular speakers. Generally no problem raising the crossover and keeping the eq set. If you don't hear any difference then no problem :) This true for a wide variety of material at various volume levels? Measuring would be ideal. The LPF of LFE for a sub isn't a crossover, just a limit on the LFE channel (".1") content and 120 is generally where you should leave that. Single sub?
 
Teetertotter?

Teetertotter?

Senior Audioholic
@lovinthehd, I appreciate the reply and will continue to use what Audyssey calibrates it to be. I have left it that way for years and just wanted to know, after all this time. I have read too, to leave the Audyssey settings as is. I just never questioned.
 
O

Oddball

Junior Audioholic
Based on the size of your LCR woofers (5.5") 80hz might theoretically be a better crossover as these speakers would ideally need to play 40hz frequency (if set at 40hz crossover) at 105dB SPL reference volume. That would be a tall task for many bigger speakers (aka drivers, towers).

Audy (especially built in version or $20 app) will sometimes record F3 at the lowest point (which could be enhanced by room mode), but there could be some significant dips above the F3 point. If this is the case, and depending on how significant these dips are, moving the crossover higher might be a better solution.

If you are not listening at reference or close to reference levels, and don't hear any distortion, that might explain why there is no difference between 40/80hz crossover. However, there is sometimes very strong low bass signal encoded in LCR that could potentially push your LCR beyond the limit so probably safer to go with 80hz.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Based on the size of your LCR woofers (5.5") 80hz might theoretically be a better crossover as these speakers would ideally need to play 40hz frequency (if set at 40hz crossover) at 105dB SPL reference volume. That would be a tall task for many bigger speakers (aka drivers, towers).
Although I wouldn't base anything on something as basic as woofer size (just look at the actual performance chart for the speaker in question), there's an error implicit in this post that the cut-off for speaker delivery is the crossover point; or that the speaker needs to perform full SPL at crossover.

It's not a hard stop.

Crossovers reduce volume over a range. How large that range is depends on the order of the crossover (the slope); but at the crossover point it's always -6db. So a both speakers (the woofer and sub) targeting a 105db total output, with a crossover at X would need to put out 99db at X; and both would have to perform to some extent above and below X.

That said: a 40Hz crossover to a sub is pretty rare and I'd wonder if it's a good idea even if the LR speakers can handle. We are now well into the realm of phase cancellation and room nodes and outputting from the mains is likely a bad idea (TM).
 
O

Oddball

Junior Audioholic
Actually the woofer size and the box size will give you really important clues unless you command the force to defeat the physics.
Not really sure who is in the realm of whatever and that outputting whatever from mains is a bad idea? Probably a more consistent response is needed and few graphs to support it?
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Actually the woofer size and the box size will give you really important clues unless you command the force to defeat the physics.
Clue but not conclusion. SPL at a given frequency is surface area but also x-max but also the nature of the box itself (all of which are tied to power). Ports, transmission lines, horns (folded and otherwise), waveguides, passive radiators, room interactions. There are a *ton* of factors involved in the capability of a speaker to deliver SPL, and even more in the FR curves of that.

So, as I said before, you can't judge purely on woofer size. Nor even size + count (because arrays are a thing). You really have to look at the whole thing (or the graphed data); including and especially the actual SPL load.

Tell you what. I'll tell you the size of one of my drivers and you tell me what the max SPL at 60Hz is for the speaker (box and driver) is assuming I have only that driver in the box.

The speaker is 10". What's my max SPL at 60Hz according to "physics".

Not really sure who is in the realm of whatever and that outputting whatever from mains is a bad idea? Probably a more consistent response is needed and few graphs to support it?
I don't think that sentence can be parsed.

You seem to be alluding to an ignorance around sub placement in rooms and the auditory factors that influence it. Is that what you were trying to reference?

You keep mentioning physics in your post: but you've not put up a single formula in support. Do you think saying "because physics" is actually an argument?
 
O

Oddball

Junior Audioholic
:eek::eek::eek:
Clue but not conclusion. SPL at a given frequency is surface area but also x-max but also the nature of the box itself (all of which are tied to power). Ports, transmission lines, horns (folded and otherwise), waveguides, passive radiators, room interactions. There are a *ton* of factors involved in the capability of a speaker to deliver SPL, and even more in the FR curves of that.

So, as I said before, you can't judge purely on woofer size. Nor even size + count (because arrays are a thing). You really have to look at the whole thing (or the graphed data); including and especially the actual SPL load.

Tell you what. I'll tell you the size of one of my drivers and you tell me what the max SPL at 60Hz is for the speaker (box and driver) is assuming I have only that driver in the box.

The speaker is 10". What's my max SPL at 60Hz according to "physics".


I don't think that sentence can be parsed.

You seem to be alluding to an ignorance around sub placement in rooms and the auditory factors that influence it. Is that what you were trying to reference?

You keep mentioning physics in your post: but you've not put up a single formula in support. Do you think saying "because physics" is actually an argument?
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Although I wouldn't base anything on something as basic as woofer size (just look at the actual performance chart for the speaker in question), there's an error implicit in this post that the cut-off for speaker delivery is the crossover point; or that the speaker needs to perform full SPL at crossover.

It's not a hard stop.

Crossovers reduce volume over a range. How large that range is depends on the order of the crossover (the slope); but at the crossover point it's always -6db. So a both speakers (the woofer and sub) targeting a 105db total output, with a crossover at X would need to put out 99db at X; and both would have to perform to some extent above and below X.

That said: a 40Hz crossover to a sub is pretty rare and I'd wonder if it's a good idea even if the LR speakers can handle. We are now well into the realm of phase cancellation and room nodes and outputting from the mains is likely a bad idea (TM).
Just so. Genelec uses a steep 48dB/octave for their crossovers slopes and default crossover at 85Hz for their active monitors, even for their large ones.
 
O

Oddball

Junior Audioholic
The SPL of my 6 10” drivers will be even greater? Or perhaps not because they don’t “measure” well?

Let’s just end this a so suggested before - no point really.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Just so. Genelec uses a steep 48dB/octave for their crossovers slopes and default crossover at 85Hz for their active monitors, even for their large ones.
There may still be some around; but I remember a cadre of posters who were big fans of phase coherency and so first-order crossovers.

Couldn't find local examples to critically listen to, so dropped a few grand on some phase coherent speakers (Still have my Green Mountain Europa's because the cast-marble casings were just too much of a conversation starter); but I failed to find any advantage, and the disadvantages of such low-order slopes are significant.

Sorry. That's something of a tangent. Just came to mind as we talk about slopes.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
The SPL of my 6 10” drivers will be even greater? Or perhaps not because they don’t “measure” well?
I don't think you can tell just from driver size: so consistantly with my position: I have no idea.

Let's find out. What's the SPL of your drivers at 60Hz, and what's the SPL of mine? Per you, you know.

Let’s just end this a so suggested before - no point really.
You can stop responding any time you like.
 
O

Oddball

Junior Audioholic
I don't think you can tell just from driver size: so consistantly with my position: I have no idea.

Let's find out. What's the SPL of your drivers at 60Hz, and what's the SPL of mine? Per you, you know.


You can stop responding any time you like.
My Gallo Reference can do 100 db at 60hz about 2m to MPL but they do start to distort a bit at that level. It’s a bit too much for them. That’s why I bought new fronts to go beyond 105dB. And a center to match that (the infamous Revel).
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
My Gallo Reference can do 100 db at 60hz about 2m to MPL but they do start to distort a bit at that level. It’s a bit too much for them. That’s why I bought new fronts to go beyond 105dB. And a center to match that (the infamous Revel).
Sweet. That's half the answer.

Is that your claim regarding my 10"? Per "physics", you believe my max non-distorted 60Hz SPL is 105db?

Perhaps if you put up the formula you are using I can run through the math myself? Otherwise, you can just tell me a number.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
There may still be some around; but I remember a cadre of posters who were big fans of phase coherency and so first-order crossovers.

Couldn't find local examples to critically listen to, so dropped a few grand on some phase coherent speakers (Still have my Green Mountain Europa's because the cast-marble casings were just too much of a conversation starter); but I failed to find any advantage, and the disadvantages of such low-order slopes are significant.

Sorry. That's something of a tangent. Just came to mind as we talk about slopes.
I missed writing that this was for the subwoofer/monitor crossover slope. At hand I don’t recall the crossover slopes for their other drivers.
 

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