Avoid Abes of Maine - rip off

[JeffreyDJ]

As far as the PF60 -- very likely Belkin is closing those out based on what I found. Very few vendors still have them at full price now (Dell being one at full-price). A quick search on google showed most places have discounted it up to ~60% already.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

SJDGPT,

What exactly do you buy? You didn't mention anything about audio. 45% markup is pretty standard across the board unless you sell jewelry - then you can expect markups as much as 500% or more. People need to make a living, eat, pay insurance, and turn a profit. Most of us who work know what our products are in our specific industry "marked up." We weren't born yesterday. I have to side with Shokhead here. Not everyone has the inside line on everything. $200 off an $800 purchase is 25%. Pretty darn good seeing many are paying $800. We all have the internet at our disposal. We can search for pricing. Most Denon mfg's won't discount an "A" unit as much as you say, unless they are ripping you off on something else. Audio doesn't move out the door like cheap jewelry in Walmart does. Profit is a relative term. One factor is volume moved. Most audio salesmen in higher end shops are paid commission, and some "earn" their commission better than others. Wouldn't you pay more for education and service? Sure you can cheat the system and shop locally, then buy via internet. Internet sites don't have the overhead local shops do. You said you were a previous customer, spent a lot of money, and someone owed you a favor? Sounds like someone made a good buck off you in the past, right? So they cut you a deal. Fair enough. Give me one place in the US that will sell a "B" unit with a Denon warranty at $450 off of this Denon 2805. I won't belive it until I see it.

Looking at the model up from this, the msrp is $1199 on the 3805:

This looks like a good deal, right?

www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/detail.asp?store=macmall&dpno=444317&source=zwb12091&adcampaign=email,zwb12091&wt.mc_id=zwb12091
Try buying one here. There's a backlog for months. Too good to be true. I called and it's an internal joke. Great company, but they need to hold off advertising things that aren't broke yet. That's the deal here.

This you can have for the price, they have them available. A little more money, but great service.
www.ubid.com/actn/opn/getpage.asp?AuctionId=10320368

This is also available for $50 more, with a better warranty.
www.dakmart.com/website/items.asp?cID=111&p=3

These are the best deals you can find on the 3805 bar anyone owing you "favors."

Denon will not warranty "B" type deals from other manufacturers who aren't on their website. So by buying this "B" unit out of the back of a van and saving 45% ($200 over the above listed prices) or whatever you are claiming, if the receiver takes a dump and you're out the warranty, did you really save?

The kicker to this discussion is your statement " How did I get the big discount? I am a nice guy? I spend a lot of money? I know the manager of the store? Somebody owed me a favor? Yep"

 

[sjdgpt]

I will say it again.

Somebody, somewhere is making way too much money off B Market sales.

You strip off the cost for warranty obligations and the units can be sold to the vendors for far, far less than A Stock.

Which means in pretty simple terms:

A: The manufacturers are not passing the savings onto the B Stock vendors.

or

B: The B Stock vendors are over charging for their products.


Pretty simple. It is either A or it is B.


Consider I work with several Japanese manufacturers, I have a pretty good idea how those companies treat warranty costs. Bottom line, if the Japanese manufacturer is able to strip off warranty costs, the price drops like a rock. And most US manufacturers are not far behind the same pricing philosophy ... they love to get rid of the warranty obligations and pass those costs onto other parties.

So, if my assumption is true, and the manufacturers are passing most of the savings unto the B Stock vendors, then the B Stock Vendors must be over charging for the products.



And I strongly suspect that I am correct. Why? Because the B Stock vendors have four specific issues:


A. If the manufacturers were not passing the savings unto the B Market vendors, there would be very few vendors willing to enter into the market place to sell the products. And there are a lot of B Market vendors.

(Think about it, online vendors are attracted to big potential profit items.)


B. "Artificial" limited availability of product. IF a consistent number of B market units were readily available, the normal supply and demand curves would apply. If the units being sold are irregular in their availability, a demand for the product is falsely created, thus artificially increasing the potential selling price.

(in other words, if nobody was asking for them, the price would fall to appropriate levels, and people are having to ask {or wait} for them because the manufacturer or vendor is restricting ready access to the product).


C. The competition for selling their products is not typically their direct competition, rather it is the vendor selling the A units.

(people are just "so happy" to get one of the B market units, they will not competitively shop the B Market vendor against other B Market vendors. On this board, most B Market customers are comparing their savings to the A Market products)


D. Some of the B Market vendors may actually be subsidary units of A Market vendors, or have other financial arrangements.

(which means it is in their best interest to keep the prices artificially high)


So, I will say it again.

Somebody, somewhere is making way too much money off B Market sales.

 

[sjdgpt]

The kicker to this discussion is your statement " How did I get the big discount? I am a nice guy? I spend a lot of money? I know the manager of the store? Somebody owed me a favor? Yep"

I am a nice guy, I have never once corrected the sales dude when he tells the customer Monster is better

(I might tell the customer when he/she comes outside of the store that there are alternatives to Monster, but I NEVER slap the sales dude in the mouth in front of the customer)

I never try to nickle and dime the sales dude.

(Yes, I get deals, but I NEVER ask for them, the sales dude has to offer. AND I wait for big sales to accept the deals .... it is far better to refuse a 10% frequent customer discount on a $19 DVD .... you will be remembered as a nice customer and a big spender)

I am loyal to stores (even ones that I dislike).

I am visible when I spend money....
in other words I wait my turn
always try to buy during the slow part of the sales day
always give a wave to the sales dude as I come into the store
and always give the same sales dude my business, even if is nothing more a close out $4 DVD.


So when it was time to buy a receiver, the sales dude asked the manager "what can we do for a good customer".

Maybe I earned the discount. Maybe the manager remembered the time he cheated off my Algebra I test. Maybe the manager wanted to make a good impression because he wants to date my sister.

Do I care? Nope.

 

[shokhead]

What do you mean strip off warr costs?

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

What do you mean strip off warr costs?

I think what he's saying is that by not having to repair B units, the mfg. has no liability and thus no cost associated with repairs. Denon does offer a 90 day warranty on the B units, but then it either gets kicked to Dakmart for the remainder of the year or expires. The thing with that though is Denon already lost big time because they had to ship out a new unit to a warranted customer, and then had to sell the repaired unit which they paid a tech hourly to fix, at a discounted rate. So with his logic, it's the buyer of the B units that is making out like a bandit, not the manufacturer. I remember buying a refurbished Uniden cordless phone in college - way back in 1991. No warranty, but got it for cheap. You know that thing still works and it's been our best phone? Same battery pack. So sometimes things work out with refurbished items. Sometimes they don't. In the end, if the unit doesn't fail, both parties win. I still say the 2805 can't be had for $450 less than retail with a 90 day warranty through Denon.

 

[sjdgpt]

What do you mean strip off warr costs?

Exactly as noted above, the manufacturer no longer has a liability (obligation) for repairs.

And it is a big $.

For many industries, it is treated as prepaid expense... meaning the expense is taken for the repairs at the time the unit is manufactured or sold.

At the end of the period, if no warranty claims are made, the balance of the expense is written back as unearned income for the manufacturer.

Prepaid warranty expenses are typically worse case statisical numbers. In other words, if I "know" that 1 unit in 97 sold will statistically require a new external case for the remote control, at least 1/97 of the cost of the external case for the remote control is added to each unit sold. HOWEVER, if I am unsure as to the exact number of remote control external cases that could be required, I will use the ratio based upon the worse results for remote controls that I ever had in the business.

If I am a smart manufacturer, I will even compute the number of owners manuals that will be lost by the purchaser and subsequently claimed to be never received.

(remember, it does cost money to operate a call center and mail those "lost" owners manuals)

Take nothing for granted. Each component is evaluated.

Those costs, real or fraudelent, will be added to my final manufacturing costs.

If I can make the unit for $320, need $20 in profit to make the beancounters and owners happy, and the statistical average warranty costs are $105.40, my final selling price to the dealers will be $445.40.

What is that $105.40 based upon? One of my Japanese manufacturers that uses Hitachi electrical motors in the production of an industrial cutting machine has computed their two year warranty costs at 31% of the wholesale price of their equipment.


A couple of years from now, some of that $105.40 may be claimed as unearned income. Of course, if I failed to do my computations correctly, I may actually be out more than $105.40 in warranty costs, and most likely, will also be out of a job. Which means, I have a pretty good inclination to overstate warranty costs, rather than understate those costs.

Now, take that selling price of $445.40. If the typical dealer discount is 50%, the MSRP will be $890.80, which rounds up very nicely to the ideal marketing price of $899.99

But, if the warranty costs are removed from the unit, I could set the MSRP at $680. OR, play any number of other pricing games......



Since most sellers of B Market stuff are catalog and online companies, shouldn't they be pricing their stuff BELOW the retail price for their products? Isnt that what they advertise? Yet, in my example above, the B Market product is being sold for essentially a retail price. Yes, their $ profit margin is smaller, but so is their actual cost in the unit, which means they are actually maintaining the same ROI (return on investment) as the storefront dealer.

I won't critize the storefront dealer, their overhead costs are so much greater. But then, why can't the B Market guys give you the consumer a proper price discount.

As I have stated before, somebody is making way to much money selling B Market stuff.

And yes, a 50% discount from retail is possible for the B Market guys. They may not want to give it to you, but you should be demanding it.

 

[shokhead]

As for Denon,you buy BStock from an authorized dealer by Denon and its a full,1 year factory warr by Denon,,you dont take it back to Dakmart for repair,you take it to a authorized Denon dealer,circuit city,good guys,whoever it might be. Dont know where this 90 day warr crap is coming from. Sjdgpt,you must spend 1000's of dollars to be in a place that much that they know/remember you.

 

[JeffreyDJ]

(Yes, I get deals, but I NEVER ask for them, the sales dude has to offer. AND I wait for big sales to accept the deals .... it is far better to refuse a 10% frequent customer discount on a $19 DVD .... you will be remembered as a nice customer and a big spender)

You're the patron siant of buying, I must say. That is the silliest thing I've read! if someone is offering a 10% discount on ANYTHING -- it's because they can and want to. You'd have a better chance of NOT being offered a discount in the future by continually refusing, then by getting a bigger one. And, from what we've read you NEVER ASK FOR ONE, so you rely on being offered one. At this rate, you'll have people scared to even offer at regulat price.

Not trying to be rude, but not everyone has the answer for everything. Better to be completely honest then to stretch the truth to fit the post.

 

[sjdgpt]

You're the patron siant of buying, I must say.

No, I am the guy the sales dude remembers.

 

[JeffreyDJ]

No, I am the guy the sales dude remembers.

Fair enough.

 

[HTnewbie]

VERY DELAYED UPDATE: The issue FULLY resolved itself

I just realized I never fully updated this thread that I started. Abes ultimately sent me a fully working unit which has worked flawlessly for almost three years. Never once needed service so the extended warranty was pure margin for the parties involved.

My lessons:

1) Know what you are buying and from whom. eBay purchases are not better or worse than Abes if warranty is your concern.

2) Work through the Customer Service folks and remember the old adage about vinegar and sugar.

3) Don't buy an AVR just as the technology cycle is about to turn. The Yamaha in question was a component switching model bought just as HDMI was being introduced. Everytime I used it I regretted not waiting for an HDMI switching AVR. Sure, hindsight is 20/20 and I would have had to wait some time and I had a burning desire. The unit served us well and I am now retasking it to distributed audio in another section of the house. Of course, I am upgrading to an HDMI 1.3 switching AVR for the theater.

4) The folks on these forums are great and can provide a treasure trove of information.

Thanks to all Audioholics!

 

[markw]

I just realized I never fully updated this thread that I started. Abes ultimately sent me a fully working unit which has worked flawlessly for almost three years. Never once needed service so the extended warranty was pure margin for the parties involved.

My lessons:

1) Know what you are buying and from whom. eBay purchases are not better or worse than Abes if warranty is your concern.

2) Work through the Customer Service folks and remember the old adage about vinegar and sugar.

3) Don't buy an AVR just as the technology cycle is about to turn. The Yamaha in question was a component switching model bought just as HDMI was being introduced. Everytime I used it I regretted not waiting for an HDMI switching AVR. Sure, hindsight is 20/20 and I would have had to wait some time and I had a burning desire. The unit served us well and I am now retasking it to distributed audio in another section of the house. Of course, I am upgrading to an HDMI 1.3 switching AVR for the theater.

4) The folks on these forums are great and can provide a treasure trove of information.

Thanks to all Audioholics!

Kudos to you for this update stating that things did, indeed, work out. A bit late perhaps, but at least you did the right thing eventually.

 

[Johnd]

I just realized I never fully updated this thread that I started. Abes ultimately sent me a fully working unit which has worked flawlessly for almost three years. Never once needed service so the extended warranty was pure margin for the parties involved.

My lessons:

1) Know what you are buying and from whom. eBay purchases are not better or worse than Abes if warranty is your concern.

2) Work through the Customer Service folks and remember the old adage about vinegar and sugar.

3) Don't buy an AVR just as the technology cycle is about to turn. The Yamaha in question was a component switching model bought just as HDMI was being introduced. Everytime I used it I regretted not waiting for an HDMI switching AVR. Sure, hindsight is 20/20 and I would have had to wait some time and I had a burning desire. The unit served us well and I am now retasking it to distributed audio in another section of the house. Of course, I am upgrading to an HDMI 1.3 switching AVR for the theater.

4) The folks on these forums are great and can provide a treasure trove of information.

Thanks to all Audioholics!

Yes...better late than never. Sounds like you have sour grapes over a non HDMI receiver now. I don't have HDMI, yet I am receiving DD+ and True, and getting an HD picture. Just because it doesn't have HDMI (or the latest codecs), does not make it useless. I'm putting my "ancient" 5803 to great use, with no regrets or thoughts of "upgrading" my receiver...no need to. Just my $0.02. But glad it worked out for you (kind of...sort of). Cheers.

 

[mike c]

3 years! wow. better late than never?


edit: johnd was faster than me

 

[Johnd]

3 years! wow. better late than never?


edit: johnd was faster than me

LOL. You got to get up pretty early in the morning mike. (I know, I know, it's 10 pm there ).

Yeah. 3 years. That's a pretty stiff prison sentence.

 

[Dezoris]

Good update.

Although I will second Abes of Maine being horrible standard bait and switch shop.

I was looking for a Yamaha model that was cheap with pre-amp outs.
They had two models for around 300.

I ordered one online.
3 Days later I get an email to call the them to confirm
I call them 3 days in a row no answer after leaving messages.
I call the 4th day to ask for a manager after sitting on hold for 20 minutes.
I get some guy on saying they have to verify identities for credit card orders which is total BS.
At the end of the call he tries to sell me HDMI cables for a receiver that does not have HDMI. And tells me it is in stock and ready to ship.
3 days go by I get an email saying it is discontinued and they try to upsell me in an email. I respond to cancel the order and call.
A week later they did not cancel it.
I call again and tell them to credit my account no one cancelled it.
They promised me they would gave me a name and reference number.
5 days later no credit. I call again they said no credit was processed.
I get very upset get transferred around to 3 different people and finally someone in their accounting department who says they will credit my account.
3 days later I get the credit.

I was lucky to get my money back without doing a dispute.
Stay away from that dump. Total scam, bait and switch shop.