AV Stand: Doors or no doors?

M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Just looked at your pictures and I see that your stand is essentially what mine will be - two rows of three compartments. I'm leaning towards nixing the idea of doors but I won't know until I see it built whether I will really like it. It might look kind of bare like an open bookcase without any doors.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
It might look kind of bare like an open bookcase without any doors.
With doors, you can leave them open when in use? Then your ventilation issue is over.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
With doors, you can leave them open when in use? Then your ventilation issue is over.
That's exactly what I was doing when I had the glass doors on. But after a while, I got kind of lazy. Then one time, I closed those doors and left the amps on all night. My poor amps trapped inside the closed cabinet! I was not drinking either.:)
So that was the last time I had those doors on.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
My credenza has sliding doors like that and I thought it was going to be perfect. I soon realized that when I slide the doors to the middle they cover up my center channel:D

I have now slid the doors all the way to my bedroom closet.

I had a unit years ago that had sliding glass doors in the front. It was very simple cabinetry as they slid in slots rabbited in the top and bottom rails. No hinges, when you were running the rig you could slid the two end panels to the middle, and when not in use, slide them back for dust control.
Not sure if that is too custom for this shop or not.
Major Loser pointed out the cooling units. I thought they were pretty reasonable, starting out at 200 clams. They look fairly slim, too. HTH.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I have now slid the doors all the way to my bedroom closet.
***LOL***
Yeah, those glass doors sure look nice, but just not practical most of the time. So if the credenza costs $750 or more, how much do those sliding glass doors cost? Maybe you can sell them and get another amp from that.:)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
My rack has two solutions: One is no back and the other is perforated metal side panels, so whether I have the doors open or closed makes no difference. I have frosted glass doors on a portion of the front and the IR has no problem going through.

If you want doors, make them easily removable and you can decide whether you want them on or not whenever you like.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I'm going to make several recommendations on this based on experience.

1. I would recommend a caster base for the entire unit. This way you can easily get behind the cabinet and get to the backs of all your gear. This allows for shorter cables, and smoother cable runs. Instead of always having to TRY to stuff your hand/arm between components, you will have a straight shot.

2. Oblong openings make no sense if you want to properly run cables. Instead, do not bring the vertical supports all the way to the back of the rack and run the wiring within the cabinet itself. For EXTERNAL wiring (speakers, display, etc.) run them out the bottom, or the lower edge of the rack... why the edge - see my next response.

3. Make the back of the rack removable. Combine a caster base, with a good removable back door, and you will have a fully manageable A/V system. You slide the gear in once, then wire it up AFTER it is installed. Of course, if your wiring is coming out the center of the removable back, then you won't be able to take the back off, so you notch one of the edges of the back (just once for wiring - maybe in the center at the bottom edge) for wires to run out of the rack and where they need to go. Typically, this will be to a wall plate, or straight up the wall to a display.

4. Include more, very specific ventilation. A couple of oblongs? Congratulations, you are creating thermodynamic dams. The air comes in at the bottom of the opening, encounters the hot air inside, and instead of heading towards it, it goes straight up the back of the rack and straight back out. You MUST bring air in from a completely isolated point from air removal. I would recommend that the bottom of the rack and/or the lowest front edge be slotted, drilled with holes, or have a vented opening. Then the upper back edge of the rack should have similar. This way the air will be coming from the lower front to the upper rear, in a defined direction.

5. Doors, of any variety, make a nice addition. As long as air flow is properly addressed, and that may require some very quiet fans to help things along, then I would strongly recommend doors. Obviously, seeing the gear is a personal decision, but IR repeaters and RF remotes make opaque doors an easy reality and IR line of site should not be taken into your thoughts when making a nice piece like this.

6. Consider cable management within the cabinet. Places to zip-tie wires to, enough internal depth to support the cables that stick out behind A/V receivers, etc. Remember, you can't add depth if you don't have it to start with. Get dimensions on a GOOD A/V receiver, then add several inches for all the cabling behind it. Sony DVD changers (400 disc) are one of the deepest components on the market... so if you are considering it, make sure you build for it.

7. Also consider your height. If you can go up a few inches, sometimes it is really worth it to get that space.

I've seen no less than 50 custom built cabinets that have not met these guidelines. Even from some very good companies. In my setup, I went with a Middle-Atlantic rack that I put in my basement. For me, instead of filling my room with gear, I took the gear entirely out of the room. Throw in a great remote, and it works perfectly.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Man if I had of had this info from BMX a week ago.

Casters would have been great.

Leaving the back off first instead of having to get it off after everything was installed with 350lbs of gear would have been great

Better cable management would have been great.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Good stuff, BMXTRIX. I have thought of some of those things and some are not doable with this furniture builder. The comment about ventilation requirements I don't understand so maybe you could follow up on that.

I would recommend a caster base for the entire unit.
The base has adjustable leveler feet but no option for casters. This is just another one of their restrictions, just like I can only get clear glass for doors because their supplier doesn't offer smoked glass.

Make the back of the rack removable.
I will inquire about that option. It would be ideal but I'm sure there will be some reason why they don't offer that option. They use 3/16" thick backing like you see on the back of bookcases, except that it is actually thin plywood and not cardboard.

Oblong openings make no sense if you want to properly run cables. Instead, do not bring the vertical supports all the way to the back of the rack and run the wiring within the cabinet itself.
In the original design for the last one I had built we did specify that the vertical stiles should be short 1.5" but then they informed me that there would be no place to tack on the back if we did it that way. If a removeable back panel is doable then maybe that restriction would go away.

For wire management, the shelves are 1.5" short so there is a gap at the back and you can easily run wires from top to bottom. For left to right wiring, there are holes in the stiles (because we couldn't shorten the vertical stiles instead).

The elliptical cutouts on the back were for running wires out of the cabinet to the speaker wall plates and I figured also double as ventilation.

Include more, very specific ventilation. A couple of oblongs? Congratulations, you are creating thermodynamic dams. The air comes in at the bottom of the opening, encounters the hot air inside, and instead of heading towards it, it goes straight up the back of the rack and straight back out. You MUST bring air in from a completely isolated point from air removal.
That I do not understand. Why would the air enter at the bottom only and rise to combine with the hot air? Without a fan directing air in a particular direction it will enter everywhere there is an opening.

If the front of the stand is open, air can flow in from the front and will combine with the hot air rising from the top of the components. The elliptical cutouts provide a rather large opening for the air to escape. It seems to me that this is exactly a 'flue' - circulating air from the front and sides of the component has an exit path at the rear and it is no different than other stands from makers like Salamander and StudioTech except that there is one vertical opening instead of multiple horizontal openings.

My prior stand had no doors and only the standard 2" diameter wire holes at the rear and the receiver barely got warm.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
I have a tower with glass doors and it's a complete pain in the ***!!! I have four, count em, four 4" fans in there and I still can't keep my PS 3 from kicking its fan into high gear if I leave the door closed. The tower has a slot at the bottom and top of the back for air flow, I cut 2 holes in the back and put a fan at each one of these holes to draw hot air out of the cabinet. I have one fan directly on top of my receiver and 1 right next to the PS 3 to pull hot air away from it. All to no avail. So every time I use the PS 3, I have to open the door a little bit for the extra air flow. The problem with this is that it makes the fan noise more noticeable.

The fans are pretty quiet, and they don't really bother me when the door is closed. But when the door is open and there's a quiet passage in a movie, it gets a little annoying. Plus it kinda bugs me to keep opening and closing the door every time I want to use the PS 3. I also have my cable box in the tower, and it runs hot all the time anyway. So when you add a little more heat in the tower from the PS 3, sometimes the cable box fan goes into turbo, and it sounds like a little plane is flying around inside the tower.

My amp and receiver always stay nice and cool. It's just the PS 3 and the cable box. But I think I'll definitely stay away from doors for my next cabinet.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
I think the PS3 is 'one of a kind' as far as heat goes and boy when the fan kicks into high, you know it. I could not keep mine cool without removing the back panel on the credenza and removing the front glass. It stays nice and cool now so thank goodness I (and the wife) like the credenza better without the doors.

I have a tower with glass doors and it's a complete pain in the ***!!! I have four, count em, four 4" fans in there and I still can't keep my PS 3 from kicking its fan into high gear if I leave the door closed. The tower has a slot at the bottom and top of the back for air flow, I cut 2 holes in the back and put a fan at each one of these holes to draw hot air out of the cabinet. I have one fan directly on top of my receiver and 1 right next to the PS 3 to pull hot air away from it. All to no avail. So every time I use the PS 3, I have to open the door a little bit for the extra air flow. The problem with this is that it makes the fan noise more noticeable.

The fans are pretty quiet, and they don't really bother me when the door is closed. But when the door is open and there's a quiet passage in a movie, it gets a little annoying. Plus it kinda bugs me to keep opening and closing the door every time I want to use the PS 3. I also have my cable box in the tower, and it runs hot all the time anyway. So when you add a little more heat in the tower from the PS 3, sometimes the cable box fan goes into turbo, and it sounds like a little plane is flying around inside the tower.

My amp and receiver always stay nice and cool. It's just the PS 3 and the cable box. But I think I'll definitely stay away from doors for my next cabinet.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
All but one custom built or even pre-built rack I've seen has had some simple flaw like those unaccounted for factors mentioned by BMXTRIX. I have always opted for an open or semi-open rack for this reason. My rack must weigh in around 400lbs or more with my TV on it - it isn't easy to move for sure, so I have it pulled out enough so that I can get behind it from either side to make any connections without moving it.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... just like I can only get clear glass for doors because their supplier doesn't offer smoked glass.
.
You must have a glass shop of some kind in the city? Call them and see who has smoked glass to order and how much with polished edges?

Installing them with hardware is not hard. Or, just get the clear and replace them with smoked, then the hardware is already in place and can get a good dimension, or take the clear and have it copied in smoke:D
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Take them the existing glass, choose the glass you want and they will cut to size. That's what I did before and it cost me about $15-20 to replace some glass insets on a table I used to have.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Good stuff, BMXTRIX. I have thought of some of those things and some are not doable with this furniture builder. The comment about ventilation requirements I don't understand so maybe you could follow up on that.
Middle Atlantic goes through a lot of this stuff pretty extensively... Here is a link to their white paper on thermal management...

http://repnet.middleatlantic.com/COMPANY/MarketingFiles/TempInsideRacks/Thermal Management 3-04.pdf

What ends up happenning (easy explanation) is that air actually travels the path of least resistance. Like with weather patterns, the equipment inside the rack can create warm fronts - when the cool air from outside the rack encounters these 'fronts' they spin away from them and instead of fresh air being drawn into the rack, the hot air is actually trapped within.

Fans can help with this when properly placed, but the idea is that you want to draw out an air flow diagram and avoid air intakes being placed to close to air outflows. You want to draw cool air into the rack, in adequate supply, then have all the hot gear feed that cool air flow, and then have that air expelled from the rack, without creating any pockets of spinning hot air that recirculates right back into equipment.

The base has adjustable leveler feet but no option for casters. This is just another one of their restrictions, just like I can only get clear glass for doors because their supplier doesn't offer smoked glass.
Always an issue when dealing with others. It kind of suprises me that they can't get almost anything you want though.

I will inquire about that option. It would be ideal but I'm sure there will be some reason why they don't offer that option. They use 3/16" thick backing like you see on the back of bookcases, except that it is actually thin plywood and not cardboard.
Most don't offer that option because as soon as you remove the casters, then the rack becomes 'fixed' in one location. Yet, Salamander designs, who isn't exactly the best or worst at this stuff does deliver on removable rear panels - and has the openings for those panels at the edges. Also, they use a screw mounting system - bolts are put into the rack itself, and then the rear panel slides onto those bolts, then you use nuts to tighten over the rear panel to hold it in place. I think they use plastic for the back instead of wood though.

In the original design for the last one I had built we did specify that the vertical stiles should be short 1.5" but then they informed me that there would be no place to tack on the back if we did it that way. If a removeable back panel is doable then maybe that restriction would go away.
The vertical stiles can still go all the way back. You just want to have holes large enough to pass wiring back and forth and up and down the rack - while still maintaining proper airflow throughout the rack. Actually separating the sections allows you to separate some of the hotter gear from each other. If you have two hot pieces of gear you can put them in different sections of the rack to help keep one section from overheating.

The elliptical cutouts on the back were for running wires out of the cabinet to the speaker wall plates and I figured also double as ventilation.
If the back isn't removable, then it doesn't matter where the holes are for running wire. But, if the holes don't properly help with ventilation, then you may want to move them, make them bigger, etc.

If the back is removable, you do NOT want holes in the center of the removable panel for running wires. On my rack at home I made this mistake, and at the end I actually drilled large holes in the bottom of my rack. Three 2" holes to run all the cabling into and out of. It is now incredibly easy to put the back on/off my rack.

That I do not understand. Why would the air enter at the bottom only and rise to combine with the hot air? Without a fan directing air in a particular direction it will enter everywhere there is an opening.

If the front of the stand is open, air can flow in from the front and will combine with the hot air rising from the top of the components. The elliptical cutouts provide a rather large opening for the air to escape. It seems to me that this is exactly a 'flue' - circulating air from the front and sides of the component has an exit path at the rear and it is no different than other stands from makers like Salamander and StudioTech except that there is one vertical opening instead of multiple horizontal openings.

My prior stand had no doors and only the standard 2" diameter wire holes at the rear and the receiver barely got warm.
If you have enough space around gear in a rack, and it is open enough, then you don't have issues. Close in on the sides, close in the back, put doors on it, then heat must be considered far more critically. If the front is open and you aren't stacking half your gear, then typically you won't have heat issues as gear IS designed to cool through convection.

At the end of the day, it's the gear that you pay $$$ for that is being put inside an oven. How hot that oven gets depends entirely on the design. Cabinetmakers can be phenomenal, but still not have a clue about how A/V affects their design methodology. Unfortunately, this is almost always the case.

One of the best piece of woodworking I ever saw was a 6' diagonal opening cut into a built-in. The opening then had a box put into it, from behind, the contained a plasma. The box was custom built for the plasma with framing that actually covered the frame of the plasma, and you set the box on the ground to mount and cable the plasma up. When it was all cabled and mounted, it slid into the opening from behind, then was bolted in place. Since it was a box within the cabinet, if there was a product failure, then a new box could be made to fit the new display perfectly and frame it as it should be. Yet, the box itself was properly vented and had the correct airflow to keep the plasma running cool at all times. From both performance AND looks, it was a 5 star product design. Yet was one of a 'few and far between' design level I have seen for A/V products.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
So one more question about holes for wire routing.

The current stand I have, which was built by the same company that will build the new one, has two 3" diameter holes on the top spaced about 18" apart - basically centered over each compartment. My theory behind that approach was to separate power from signal cables for the TV and not have to run the wires over the top and in through the back panel to connect to the receiver inside the stand.

No other stand I have ever seen has holes on the top to get wires down into the component area. I am undecided if I should do that for the new stand. The issue is that the pedestal for different TVs are shaped differently and its hard to predict exactly where the holes should be or how large. With my luck I'll pick a TV whose pedestal covers up the holes rendering them useless.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Most don't offer that option because as soon as you remove the casters, then the rack becomes 'fixed' in one location. Yet, Salamander designs, who isn't exactly the best or worst at this stuff does deliver on removable rear panels - and has the openings for those panels at the edges. Also, they use a screw mounting system - bolts are put into the rack itself, and then the rear panel slides onto those bolts, then you use nuts to tighten over the rear panel to hold it in place. I think they use plastic for the back instead of wood though.
The ones on mine are thin, very hard, coated wood. They also offer "extended" back panels that are 3" or 4" deeper than the original ones. They are mounted using a T-nut system that sits inside the extrusions and a thumb nut on the outside making the panels very easy to remove.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
So one more question about holes for wire routing.

The current stand I have, which was built by the same company that will build the new one, has two 3" diameter holes on the top spaced about 18" apart - basically centered over each compartment. My theory behind that approach was to separate power from signal cables for the TV and not have to run the wires over the top and in through the back panel to connect to the receiver inside the stand.

No other stand I have ever seen has holes on the top to get wires down into the component area. I am undecided if I should do that for the new stand. The issue is that the pedestal for different TVs are shaped differently and its hard to predict exactly where the holes should be or how large. With my luck I'll pick a TV whose pedestal covers up the holes rendering them useless.
I would put a hole (or a few) right at the top of the rack on the back. This way you can route all the wires to the center of the stand, then down the stand and to the back, then right into the rack. It covers your bases, and if you spill some water/soda/beer on top of the rack it will be far less likely to trickle into the rack itself.

I definitely am very happy with having cut the holes in the bottom of my rack. Since I have a couple inches clearance between my carpet and the bottom of the rack, it doesn't hurt the cables and they are mostly out of my way when I'm working on the rack itself. I'm actually thinking that I will cut a few more holes closer to the edges to help with this even more and to separate my signals a bit more, though I do use snake skin to cover the wiring that goes from the wall to my rack.

Heck, maybe I'll just get a Wireworks jumper to take things from the family room rack down to my basement rack...

http://www.wireworks.com/AV2000/Assemblies.htm

That would be different.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
So you have holes in the base of the stand and since the stand actually sits a few inches off the ground you can run the wires down through the bottom and out to reach the wall (instead of cut-outs in the back panel)? That's something they could easily do - basically they will cut any number of holes of any size anywhere you want them.
 
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