audyssey flat or reference, subwoofer

William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Ninja
That should help, in theory, after that you can try Audyssey bypass again to see if things improved. If not, you may want to try some manual adjustment of the subwoofer's phase.
I agree. In my system, many times Audyssey will finish with a null in my XO region. Adding a couple feet usually flattens it out and seems to help impulse response too. REW has verified this and btw @PENG the minidsp is working great for me. A lot less clunky than my trusty ol BFD lol.
 
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bradymartin

Full Audioholic
without getting into all the rew stuff,
maybe if i buy one of those cheap decibel meters might help?
audyssey set the subto -6, i raised it to 0

i tried both 0 phase and 90, i think, on the back of the sub. dont think it made a difference.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
without getting into all the rew stuff,
maybe if i buy one of those cheap decibel meters might help?
audyssey set the subto -6, i raised it to 0

i tried both 0 phase and 90, i think, on the back of the sub. dont think it made a difference.
Usually if just a two-choice phase switch it's 0 and 180. From your listening position pick the one that has the stronger bass (i.e. don't stand next to the sub alone making the judgement, maybe get someone to help).

Raising sub level post-Audyssey is pretty common altho 6 is more than I usually do, for me it's more between 2-4dB and sometimes I change it for particular material, even back to where it was set during calibration (which is the nice thing about knowing the starting point in the avr from calibration and a precise way to raise/lower it via the avr controls rather than fiddle with a knob on the back of a sub).

If you want to measure I'd think more about a measurement mic and software to use with software/computer as it's more versatile for not just spl measurements but many other useful ones as well. Dayton UMM-6 or the miniDSP Umik-1 are popular choices for the mic, REW (Room EQ Wizard) software for measurement.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
no i just dont want the treble of the speakers messed with.
these are klipsch rp280s, love the tweeters, and vtf2 mk5 sub
Go ahead and run it again. You will get a different result more likely than not and a different result as many times as you care to run it. Which one will you believe? I have just spent a couple of weeks exploring Audyssey Multi EQ/XT. It is a total slayer of audio fidelity. This is a very nasty product indeed and Dynamic Eq being particularly evil. I have just spent an intensive two weeks with this product and have come to understand how really dreadful it is.

I guess I should have anticipated it, as it sounds too good to be true and it is. To have even thought a tiny featherweight mic connected to a device with an unbalanced cable thinner than a piece of spaghetti would lead to audio nirvana was absurd. It can't and does not.

I will give a full report in a few days or so documenting how bad a system this is.

If it is accurate reproduction you want then leave Audyssey and all its additions, especially Dynamic Eq firmly switched to off, and make sure it is, as if you don't set the set up lock to on, it has a habit of continuing to haunt your system. Just an incredibly awful program.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Go ahead and run it again. You will get a different result more likely than not and a different result as many times as you care to run it. Which one will you believe? I have just spent a couple of weeks exploring Audyssey Multi EQ/XT. It is a total slayer of audio fidelity. This is a very nasty product indeed and Dynamic Eq being particularly evil. I have just spent an intensive two weeks with this product and have come to understand how really dreadful it is.

I guess I should have anticipated it, as it sounds too good to be true and it is. To have even thought a tiny featherweight mic connected to a device with an unbalanced cable would lead to audio nirvana was absurd. It can't and does not.

I will give a full report in a few days or so documenting how bad a system this is.

If it is accurate reproduction you want then leave Audyssey and all its additions, especially Dynamic Eq firmly switched to off, and make sure it is, as if you don't set the set up lock to on, it has a habit of continuing to haunt your system. Just an incredibly awful program.
+1

I also have klipsch reference Premeire speakers, they sound excellent without audyssey, and both the flat and reference curve ruins their already flat in room response. I can run and rerun audyssey and get different results every single time, and it generally sounds worse than no audyssey as far as mids and highs are concerned.

This is the uncorrected response of the left and right speakers and the sub. Above 80hz, at 10', the response is relatively flat, no audyssey required. The bass problems are solved by strategic sub placement and an 80hz xover.



Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk
 
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bradymartin

Full Audioholic
so many questions.
maybe audyssey is more trouble than its worth.

the towers in direct mode by themselves produce louder and definitely stronger bass than when i set to bypass l/r in stereo mode where the sub is also running.

in bypass l/r the towers plus sub dont play as loud or strong as the towers by themselves in direct mode. i expected the towers to behave the same and get extra bass from the sub. instead i get less bass in stereo mode. just doesnt make sense.

but, the tweeter sounds untouched in both modes.

i might try no audyssey and measure distances with tape. then play with levels and set each speaker volume. lot of work though. but i wonder if i can use audyssey to set only the subwoofer. have no idea how to adjust the sub without audyssey. and dont want to learn rew etc. its a denon 3300
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
so many questions.
maybe audyssey is more trouble than its worth.

the towers in direct mode by themselves produce louder and definitely stronger bass than when i set to bypass l/r in stereo mode where the sub is also running.

in bypass l/r the towers plus sub dont play as loud or strong as the towers by themselves in direct mode. i expected the towers to behave the same and get extra bass from the sub. instead i get less bass in stereo mode. just doesnt make sense.

but, the tweeter sounds untouched in both modes.

i might try no audyssey and measure distances with tape. then play with levels and set each speaker volume. lot of work though. but i wonder if i can use audyssey to set only the subwoofer. have no idea how to adjust the sub without audyssey. and dont want to learn rew etc. its a denon 3300
Best thing to do is the sub crawl to find a good spot for the sub. You will need an spl meter to adjust the levels. Audyssey usually gets levels and distances right, but not always. Run it and then verify it manually.

If using an spl meter to set the sub, it should read about 71-73dB with the volume at 0 and the meter set to C weighting, you may have to adjust it to taste by ear using familiar music, the rest of the speakers should read 75dB.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk
 
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PENG

Audioholic Overlord
so many questions.
maybe audyssey is more trouble than its worth.

the towers in direct mode by themselves produce louder and definitely stronger bass than when i set to bypass l/r in stereo mode where the sub is also running.

in bypass l/r the towers plus sub dont play as loud or strong as the towers by themselves in direct mode. i expected the towers to behave the same and get extra bass from the sub. instead i get less bass in stereo mode. just doesnt make sense.

but, the tweeter sounds untouched in both modes.

i might try no audyssey and measure distances with tape. then play with levels and set each speaker volume. lot of work though. but i wonder if i can use audyssey to set only the subwoofer. have no idea how to adjust the sub without audyssey. and dont want to learn rew etc. its a denon 3300
You can't believe everything those guys are telling you as facts that may or may not apply to you. Some of them may be not doing it right. I have plotted numerous REW graphs comparing Audyssey, Audyssey flat, Audyssey off, Dynamic EQ on vs off etc etc., and all show Audyssey could do a very decent job flattening the bass response from 20 to 200 Hz and did not do much above 500 Hz and whatever +/- 2 to 3 dB it affected may or may not sound worse to everyone. DEQ is wonderful and accurate.

I have high respect for TLSG and I am not sure if he's testing MultEQ, XT or XT32. My previous comments referred mostly to XT32 SubEQ HT and XT too to a much less extent.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
+1

I also have klipsch reference Premeire speakers, they sound excellent without audyssey, and both the flat and reference curve ruins their already flat in room response. I can run and rerun audyssey and get different results every single time, and it generally sounds worse than no audyssey as far as mids and highs are concerned.

This is the uncorrected response of the left and right speakers and the sub. Above 80hz, at 10', the response is relatively flat, no audyssey required. The bass problems are solved by strategic sub placement and an 80hz xover.



Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk
I am not going to argue with you, you have your graphs and I have mine, but as you mentioned before, speakers are subjective and I assume you meant preference of how certain speakers sound are subjective. Well so is the effects of audyssey!! It is a fact that Audyssey XT32 SubEQ HT can do a decent job on the lower frequency band, though it most likely is not the best REQ out there.

What Audyssey does to the higher frequency band, say above 500 Hz is a different matter, some prefer bypass, some prefer reference or flat and some, like you, prefer turning it off. That is a matter of preference and is highly subjective. Please save me the Dr. Toole thing (sorry I just anticipated that..:D),I have great respect for Dr. Toole and would love to read his book, but he is not the only expert and does not have the final say on everything audio, as different research by different PhD or PhD candidates often yielded different results and conclusions.

On the objective side, I hope blue is with Audyssey on, it doesn't look the best Audyssey can do but not too bad. If green is the one, then I would agree you are better off turning it off. I suspect most would prefer the red one, not me as I prefer everything to be on the neutral side. The red curve actually looks like DEQ on but for that to work for me the spl has to drop down to around 70 dB, not at reference level.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I am not going to argue with you, you have your graphs and I have mine, but as you mentioned before, speakers are subjective and I assume you meant preference of how certain speakers sound are subjective. Well so is the effects of audyssey!! It is a fact that Audyssey XT32 SubEQ HT can do a decent job on the lower frequency band, though it most likely is not the best REQ out there.

What Audyssey does to the higher frequency band, say above 500 Hz is a different matter, some prefer bypass, some prefer reference or flat and some, like you, prefer turning it off. That is a matter of preference and is highly subjective. Please save me the Dr. Toole thing (sorry I just anticipated that..:D),I have great respect for Dr. Toole and would love to read his book, but he is not the only expert and does not have the final say on everything audio, as different research by different PhD or PhD candidates often yielded different results and conclusions.

On the objective side, I hope blue is with Audyssey on, it doesn't look the best Audyssey can do but not too bad. If green is the one, then I would agree you are better off turning it off. I suspect most would prefer the red one, not me as I prefer everything to be on the neutral side. The red curve actually looks like DEQ on but for that to work for me the spl has to drop down to around 70 dB, not at reference level.
I agree that audyssey does an excellent job below 500hz, it's above 500hz that's the problem, if you could set a cut off frequency, I'd use it, but as of right now, you can't without the app, and the app sucks.

For all intents and purposes, finding a good spot for the sub with a relatively flat response negates the need for room correction.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I agree with PENG. TLS is extremely knowledgeable, but his, as well as everyone's advice should be taken with a grain of salt.

With my own personal experience, and I also have the graphs to confirm, Audyssey does a great job in the bass region and hasn't in the past done anything too crazy to the rest of the speakers. In fact, in most cases in many different rooms and setups audyssey hasn't really touched my speakers.

You can't believe everything those guys are telling you as facts that may or may not apply to you. Some of them may be not doing it right. I have plotted numerous REW graphs comparing Audyssey, Audyssey flat, Audyssey off, Dynamic EQ on vs off etc etc., and all show Audyssey could do a very decent job flattening the bass response from 20 to 200 Hz and did not do much above 500 Hz and whatever +/- 2 to 3 dB it affected may or may not sound worse to everyone. DEQ is wonderful and accurate.

I have high respect for TLSG and I am not sure if he's testing MultEQ, XT or XT32. My previous comments referred mostly to XT32 SubEQ HT and XT too to a much less extent.
so many questions.
maybe audyssey is more trouble than its worth.

the towers in direct mode by themselves produce louder and definitely stronger bass than when i set to bypass l/r in stereo mode where the sub is also running.

in bypass l/r the towers plus sub dont play as loud or strong as the towers by themselves in direct mode. i expected the towers to behave the same and get extra bass from the sub. instead i get less bass in stereo mode. just doesnt make sense.

but, the tweeter sounds untouched in both modes.

i might try no audyssey and measure distances with tape. then play with levels and set each speaker volume. lot of work though. but i wonder if i can use audyssey to set only the subwoofer. have no idea how to adjust the sub without audyssey. and dont want to learn rew etc. its a denon 3300
 
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bradymartin

Full Audioholic
can i run audyssey again just for the subwoofer? or would i need to go through all speakers? ill go through all the speakers if i need to.

also, does it matter where i position the mic after 1st reading at mlp? left right forward or behind mlp etc.
maybe that has something to do with my problem.
 
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bradymartin

Full Audioholic
oh man that diagram helped alot. thanks
my mlp is around 7 feet from the tv. 11x11 room.
should i position the mic at 2 feet from the mlp after first run, the most auddysey allows, or 1 foot?
the first time i did 2 feet. denon x3300
may be important to note there is only one person in the room using the system. my man cave.
so i only care about mlp getting the best sound possible.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
I've had good results with 1.5-2 ft radius around mlp for the other 7 mic positions...
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Ninja
For a single seat, I’ve had good results with this pattern.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
I firmly believe if you follow Audyssey's instructions to the letter you will be fine. I have tried many different ways suggested by others on forums and always went back to following the original simple instructions. For your 11X11' room the couch is probably too close to the back wall so you may want to skip positions 7 and 8, but do all the other 6 positions. The mic should be pointed straight up and at least 2-3 inches clear of the top of the couch back. The distance from the main position could be kept small, such as the suggested 1.5 ft.

Below is one of the many graphs I plotted to compare Audyssey On versus Off, with two different SVS subs one on each corner of the mains. There is no way I could beat it by doing it manually and I feel one of the main limitation doing it manually is the inability to deal with the time domain related issues effectively.

Sub only XO 90 Hz.jpg
 
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bradymartin

Full Audioholic
I firmly believe if you follow Audyssey's instructions to the letter you will be fine. I have tried many different ways suggested by others on forums and always went back to following the original simple instructions. For your 11X11' room the couch is probably too close to the back wall so you may want to skip positions 7 and 8, but do all the other 6 positions. The mic should be pointed straight up and at least 2-3 inches clear of the top of the couch back. The distance from the main position could be kept small, such as the suggested 1.5 ft.

Below is one of the many graphs I plotted to compare Audyssey On versus Off, with two different SVS subs one on each corner of the mains. There is no way I could beat it by doing it manually and I feel one of the main limitation doing it manually is the inability to deal with the time domain related issues effectively.

View attachment 23563
yeah the recliners back is laying directly against the wall. i guess ill skip positions 7 and 8.
should i toe in the speakers to the mlp.
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Ninja
yeah the recliners back is laying directly against the wall. i guess ill skip positions 7 and 8.
should i toe in the speakers to the mlp.
Every speaker is different but I’ve always had better sound with some level of toe in, but it kinda depends on how far apart they are.
A good place to start is an old school way where when you’re seated in the LP, you should just barely be able to see the inside edge of your speakers. Then you’d listen to some music in stereo, or Direct with strong vocals and move the toe in and out and listen to how strong the center image of the singer is. What you want is to have the singer located in the center. Too far out, and the singer will be in both speakers(instead of center),too far in and the soundstage will become very small. Try to balance them. Fwiw, I use a laser pointer to aim my speakers.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
yeah the recliners back is laying directly against the wall. i guess ill skip positions 7 and 8.
should i toe in the speakers to the mlp.
I'd still run all mic positions, just spread them a bit differently; keep in mind mic position and seat aren't the same thing at all and the more information the better IMO. Definitely pull the seat away from the wall, tho. Toe in amount varies, experiment.
 

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