Auditioned Martin Logan Motion series

[Acoustat]

Yesterday I had the chance to audition the ML motions.
They didn't have the FX2 I was interested in for the rear channel
so I compared the hybrid EM-ESLs, the Motion 4 and 15 bookshelfs and the Motion 40 towers. Centre Motion 8 and 30 as well.

I was far removed from being impressed with the ESLs
they didn't sound bad, just didn't earn their pay by any means.
The 15's sounded like a blanket had been tossed over them
when the 40's were switched on, opening up the sound rather noticeably.

So I decided to go with the 40 towers for my rear channel.

Being behind a couch, should they be tilted back angling the sound twards the listener
or elevated getting the tweeter and mid range above the top of the couch?

 

[j_garcia]

Placement depends on your preference. You certainly shouldn't have them fire into the couch, but the tweeters at ear level should be sufficient. How far behind the couch? The further they are, the less relevant that is as they are supposed to be somewhat diffused. In my previous setup, I had my rears 3 feet behind and off to the sides, pointed toward the center of the front of the room, not directly at the listening position and it worked out very well even for multichannel music.

 

[Acoustat]

Placement depends on your preference. You certainly shouldn't have them fire into the couch, but the tweeters at ear level should be sufficient. How far behind the couch? The further they are, the less relevant that is as they are supposed to be somewhat diffused. In my previous setup, I had my rears 3 feet behind and off to the sides, pointed toward the center of the front of the room, not directly at the listening position and it worked out very well even for multichannel music.

Unfortunately, the couch is again the wall enough for reclining only.
To move the couch out for the rears (one reason I was hoping to listen to the
on wall FX2, or the Sunfire Cinema on wall) would be an ongoing shuffle for
foot traffic over the fireplace hearth, so I think when I get back in town, I'll
see if I can shift things a tad. Actually, I'm going to look at sending all foot traffic
to the sunroom, behind the couch (will require installing a receptacle in the floor
for the Lazyboy recliner) which would be stellar for the towers

I'll definitely try to come close to your previous setup + a little if I can.

 

[GranteedEV]

I was far removed from being impressed with the ESLs
they didn't sound bad, just didn't earn their pay by any means.

No surprise there.

 

[Acoustat]

No surprise there.

I was surprised, but had not auditioned any equipment for a very long time.
Not subscribed to any hi fi or HT magazines I'm well out of the loop.
That's actually a good thing to be so satisfied with such an old HiFi system.
Guarantee ya, Magnepans would sound a whole lot better if they're anything
like they were 40 years ago.

Wouldn't rear channels be more adventagious than side surrounds in a 4 speaker system?

 

[Acoustat]

My rears should be in tomorrow. Picked up 8 banana plugs and 50' of 12 AWG speaker wire yesterday
and have 25' each side down through the floor and up under the house. Once my speakers are in place
symmetrically and the couch in the best position (give and take with the wife on that)
I'll be able to drill holes for each speakers cable, run Audyssey, play with with positioning of toe and height, and rerun Audyssey again.

Having purchased the rears before the subwoofer it will be after Christmas before I can order the sub.
With the external Eq inline before the Carver amp, I can manage the bass to my ESLs and get more SPL.
Do you think doing this should affect the Audyssey settings pertinent to the mains with me manually
managing the bass post AVR? If so, I would need to store some settings in Audysseys memory and toggle them
based on material, be it music, TV or HT.

 

[GranteedEV]

I was surprised, but had not auditioned any equipment for a very long time.
Not subscribed to any hi fi or HT magazines I'm well out of the loop.
That's actually a good thing to be so satisfied with such an old HiFi system.
Guarantee ya, Magnepans would sound a whole lot better if they're anything
like they were 40 years ago.

Wouldn't rear channels be more adventagious than side surrounds in a 4 speaker system?

I know this is probably going to make you roll your eyes but:

You ought to check out and give (good) modern box speakers an opportunity. Don't limit your auditioning to panel-type speakers - they might be what you have now but that doesn't mean they're going to be your best choice.

 

[Acoustat]

I've spent the afternoon shifting furniture, repositioning and remeasuring the speakers
in equilateral triangle fashion, and toeing using a carpenters square to aim at the listening
positions sweet spot. My Acoustats are left and right specific, and a hole in the top of the frame
is used to point at the determined sweet spot, which is where I aim the square from to a point
just in front of the upright back cushion on the couch. Works like a charm, and provides a very live soundstage.
The inside edge of the speakers are now 21.25" from the back wall, and the outside edge is 37.75" out
with the speakers at 92" on all 3 distances. I cannot get the 92" apart unless I go by the centre of the speaker
rather than the inside edge as I always have before.

 

[markw]

It sounds like that, without a center channel speaker, you're going to have a miniscule sweet spot. It might be effective for one person but that's about it.

 

[Acoustat]

I know this is probably going to make you roll your eyes but:

You ought to check out and give (good) modern box speakers an opportunity. Don't limit your auditioning to panel-type speakers - they might be what you have now but that doesn't mean they're going to be your best choice.

Ok. Well I suppose towers aren't considered box speakers, but are what I auditioned quickly after
listening to the ML EM ESLs and went with. Getting excited about setting them up.
I called ML yesterday and asked why they're providing the free centre Motion 6 with the 40's which
is really quite mismatched. They agreed, but it's free, and the store knocked $600 off MSRP.
The 40's handle 300W with 92db sens. the 6 maybe 130W with 89db sens. FR on the 40's goes down to 40
and 120Hz on the 6's which may be at or above my bass Mgt. don't know yet.

I could hear more depth to voices switching between the Motion 8 and 30 centre,
other than that, there was little difference at the levels we listened at.
The Motion 6's weren't there to be auditioned. I'll probably make an attempt at selling
the promotional Motion 6 and get the 30 if I ever do a centre. The 50 has a larger ribbon tweeter
and I'd like to match the tweeters on the 40's with the 30 centre ch.

GranteedEV I actually would make a strong attempt at finding a store that carried the Magnepan 3.6's
if my Acoustats ever become dysfunctional and give them a solid serious audition. Another difficult
power hungry speaker at 86db sensitivity, but I will definitely consider other options if that time ever comes.
Hoping the lifetime warranty on my ESLs holds true. 25 yrs and counting

 

[Acoustat]

It sounds like that, without a center channel speaker, you're going to have a miniscule sweet spot. It might be effective for one person but that's about it.

agreed, you are 100% correct…tax return money maybe? LOL

 

[Acoustat]

hmm, I updated the lower resolution avatar but it only shows one of the pair of amps.
http://www.underwoodhifi.com/2012/05/bob-carver.html
I mean if you're going to dream, let's do it right.
Weighs in at a beefy 55# for each amp and 45# for each power supply.
200# of amp, and Rated Power: 700 watts RMS continuous. Typically 1000 watts w/speech & music @ 8 ohms
awesome

 

[walter duque]

You might want to check into something like these http://www.gtaudioworks.com/Products.html He makes them in his garage. I live about an hour from him but I never did have time to go to his house. I have a friend that has a pair of his speakers (didn't get a chance to check them out yet either) but he swears by them. I guess well see...

 

[walter duque]

I know this is probably going to make you roll your eyes but:

You ought to check out and give (good) modern box speakers an opportunity. Don't limit your auditioning to panel-type speakers - they might be what you have now but that doesn't mean they're going to be your best choice.

You got a good point there. I had a pair almost 40 years ago, I am not sure but I think I used Phase Linear amps to drive them. They where different then your regular norm, did they sound better then regular desiged speakers, I couldn't recall

 

[Acoustat]

You might want to check into something like these http://www.gtaudioworks.com/Products.html He makes them in his garage. I live about an hour from him but I never did have time to go to his house. I have a friend that has a pair of his speakers (didn't get a chance to check them out yet either) but he swears by them. I guess well see...

I don't see the multi quote button anymore since the site did their upgrade last month
but I hope never to have to shop for mains again. I am a fan of the mahogany though. I had never heard of
sapelle mahogany before till your link there. He just lists it as sapelle hardwood. Really pretty.

I ordered 50 board ft of Af. Mahogany to build a grandfather clock and 75% of it was consecutive cuts off the same log
just a little more narrow with each board. I've used most of it but have this much and some smaller lengths left.
The next 2 pics was in our living room where my dad redid it with African tigereye mahogany in the 60's
and is where I got my love for the wood. I like working with it, really gorgeous wood.

And yes GranteedEV does have a point and in the price range I had for rears, preferring new, is why
I went with the tower speakers. They just were better at what they did, than the EM-ESLs beside them.
I'm glad I didn't just buy them in hopes of being what I wanted (ML EM-ESLs like I had planned)
I'll take some pics tomorrow after I get them in place and post them up.

 

[fuzz092888]

You can still multi-quote, but now you have to hit reply, then scroll back up and hit reply on the next post you want to quote.

 

[Acoustat]

Quote
"GT Audio Works speakers come with a 5 year transferable warranty."
I don't see the wrap quote button anymore either. From Gregs site ^
My MLs came with 5, and the Acoustats…lifetime

My mains have 3 ESL panels side by side on each channel, no drivers
no woofers, no ribbons. The bass panel sits to the outside, the mid panel
is a bit different from the full range inside panel,
which out of the gate will have a much more spread out sound field but for a very tight sweet spot.
I sure hope they never go down, and if they do, I hope I can find service for them.

Thanx fuzz that should come in handy.

 

[Acoustat]

Got the M40's unboxed and may need to build a stand for them.
The bottom of the mid driver is ~28" above the floor, bottom of the tweeter is ~32", couch is 41".
The finish is flawless. I would prefer matte black, as touchups would work.


One drawback is the rear firing port. I would prefer front firing as close to the back wall as they are
plus the R channel port is going to fire into a corner. Presently, the rears are toed in to fire at the opposite main.
The couch MIGHT come away from the wall a couple more inches, the love seat back, a bit more for sure.

AUDYSSEY QUESTION????
The 1st pic is taken from the centre of the tv to the sweet spot.
WHERE should the Audyssey mic be placed for the 1st test?
The tutorial onscreen test begins with the centre seat, but that's not
the main seat used, rarely actually.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, I would set the first Audyssey MIC position at the center seat. Then do 7 more positions for a total of 8.

 

[Acoustat]

Yeah, I would set the first Audyssey MIC position at the center seat. Then do 7 more positions for a total of 8.

Even though the centre seat is off axis and the main listening position is the far L seat (when seated)?
The other 2 possible seats are both on the couch, to the R of the main position
(L end is sweet spot, it reclines and the couch cannot move laterally hardly at all)

I had only been tuning Audyssey for 3 seats/positions, the couch.
The other 2 seats (total of 5), are the love seat in in this picture.
My thinking was to only adjust the output for the best seats, and have the best possible sound.
99.8% of the time it is only my wife and myself who get to enjoy HT
so I couldn't see adjusting for seats that aren't used, which I was thinking, would
degrade the sound for the main positions, to satisfy positions that won't be used.
If I adjust for an additional pair of seats on the L side of the listening area, surely the middle
would have some subtraction figured in and suffer some sort of loss.
Any thoughts on this assumption? I'm fixin to measure under the house for drilling holes for the rears
to make sure I don't hit any support pillars underneath from the top side. Been there done that.

Elevating the rears…
To keep some clarity with the rears since they're firing into the couch…
I can tilt them back, aiming for the ceiling…
or I can build a couple stands for them. Tilting would be uber easy, and time efficient.
In this pic, you can see the rear R speaker just is visible with some of the tweeter exposed.
Tilting them back, actually gets the midrange driver firing in a line, over the couch.
Tilt or elevate?