Audiosciencereview.com/. legit?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

IIrc, ADTG started using that term here, for a precise definition, ask him.

Wait, what, I did?

Was it that 90dB vs 100dB number?

 

[Gmoney]

IIrc, ADTG started using that term here, for a precise definition, ask him.

lmao, yeah Andrew sure got a great sense of humor.

 

[PENG]

I am more ticked at the other AVRs than tickled.

Center channel testing is needed to make an informed decision since this represents 80% of the sound. Also, not testing is performance with processing engaged.

Did you mean center channel of an AVR? He did measure it, when I requested it on the AVR-X3600H.
It was much worse because you can't disconnect the center channel power amp on the X3600H, but obviously you can do it on your X3700H so you can expect high 90's to 100 dB SINAD for the center channel as well. Denon and Marantz AVRs standardize the audio signal path from input to pre out. Yamaha and Anthem in their top models use lower spec DACs for the surround/height channels.
Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review | Page 14 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

 

[Pogre]

Yep, aren't you glad that your SR6011 (or 12?) most likely measured better than the more expensive so called separate AV7705, or even the AV7706 (can't wait, Matthew Poes please hurry up)

Yup! It's a good feeling knowing all my processing, power needs and specs are met or exceeded. I have no plans on upgrading that part of my system for a good while and I'm super happy with the way things are sounding. When I drool over new gear it's pretty much exclusively speakers.

 

[RichB]

Did you mean center channel of an AVR? He did measure it, when I requested it on the AVR-X3600H.
It was much worse because you can't disconnect the center channel power amp on the X3600H, but obviously you can do it on your X3700H so you can expect high 90's to 100 dB SINAD for the center channel as well. Denon and Marantz AVRs standardize the audio signal path from input to pre out. Yamaha and Anthem in their top models use lower spec DACs for the surround/height channels.
Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review | Page 14 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum



View attachment 44717

Clear evidence that the center channel output MUST be measured. It sucked last time

- Rich

 

[PENG]

Wait, what, I did?

Was it that 90dB vs 100dB number?

You tell me..

He doesn't do every kind of testing of the electronics involved, doesn't even test all the possible inputs/outputs. He concentrates on a few aspects. Like RichB mentioned it's limited to mostly just two channels for example. It may not yield a lot more interesting info but until it's done....\

ps as to who else we have Erin's Klippel testing as well as Amir's for example. Have no idea about headphones, not something I look for at all.

He actually did measure the center channel SINAD (dac/preout) once and 5,7? channel a couple times. I have the impression that anything outside his comfort zone limited by the AP model he owns, and time available, he would focus on measuring as much as possible on the front two channels, perhaps thinking that it is only necessary to measure the other channels once or twice, thinking that the results relative to that of the two front channels would be repeatable. I am only guessing, but seem reasonable to me.

 

[PENG]

Clear evidence that the center channel output MUST be measured. It sucked last time

- Rich

That's not fair, okay I agree with you it sucked, but that's not apples to apples. It measured the same as the front right and left channels under the default condition when the internal amps are not disconnected with the amp assign trick. It also measured as good/or as bad by you standard as the AV7705 that has no internal amps to disconnect !!!!!

 

[PENG]

Yup! It's a good feeling knowing all my processing, power needs and specs are met or exceeded. I have no plans on upgrading that part of my system for a good while and I'm super happy with the way things are sounding. When I drool over new gear it's pretty much exclusively speakers.

Seeing is believing, so I just check to make sure:
I am not typing in the link but anyone can visit Audiosciencereview.com and check for themselves.

SR6014 (HDMI input):

SINAD at 2 V................... 80.416/80.235 (with amps disconnected)
SNR................................. 107.435/107.224 dB

Note:
1)The SR6014 has the same DAC and preamp vol control as the SR6012, basically identical in the audio signal chain from input to output.
2) The SR7015 measured marginally worse, or practically the same as the SR6014

AV7705 (HDMI input):

SINAD at 4 V (XLR)....... 75.136/75.365
SNR............................... 107.963/108.368 dB, XLR balanced output

Once again this shows XLR balanced (for D+M AVRs/AVPs) offer no better SNR and THD+N results on the benches.

 

[RichB]

Seeing is believing, so I just check to make sure:
I am not typing in the link but anyone can visit Audiosciencereview.com and check for themselves.

SR6014 (HDMI input):

SINAD at 2 V................... 80.416/80.235 (with amps disconnected)
SNR................................. 107.435/107.224 dB

Note:
1)The SR6014 has the same DAC and preamp vol control as the SR6012, basically identical in the audio signal chain from input to output.
2) The SR7015 measured marginally worse, or practically the same as the SR6014

AV7705 (HDMI input):

SINAD at 4 V (XLR)....... 75.136/75.365
SNR............................... 107.963/108.368 dB, XLR balanced output

Once again this shows XLR balanced (for D+M AVRs/AVPs) offer no better SNR and THD+N results on the benches.

Yes, but if using balanced transformers XLR can provide isolation. Cheap cables work great, and they connectors are better.
When I had the AV8801, adding balanced cables reduced the noise at the speakers though my cables are not long but they are are rats nest.

Parasound amps typically have slightly worse numbers on the XLR connections though they still may be worth using.

BTW, there was a user of Marantz AV8805 that and his amps because he has very efficient horn speakers.

My SOTA definition is 100 dB SINAD at 1 watt with acceptable being 90 dB in pure direct.
That may seem excessive but in an AVR/AVP expect 10 and perhaps up to 20 dB of attenuation for bass management and REQ.
These devices need to start with very good base performance to have the headroom for processing.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

My SOTA definition is 100 dB SINAD at 1 watt with acceptable being 90 dB in pure direct.
That may seem excessive but in an AVR/AVP expect 10 and perhaps up to 20 dB of attenuation for bass management and REQ.
These devices need to start with very good base performance to have the headroom for processing.

- Rich

Sounds reasonable to me, I can't believe you and ADTG could actually be on the same page on this.

 

[RichB]

I bought an X3700H for a family vacation home that we also rent out for the following reasons:

- The amps can be turned off
- ASR measurements were excellent
- Addition of BT and Airplay features
- Support for 4K if and when we upgrade the display
- Potentially cooler running than the Onkyo 805 it replaced

When installed it is connected to a 20+ year old Sunfire 200 WPC 5 channel amp.
The performance is Ok but, the Dolby Surround 2.0 upmixer was lackluster compared to the RMC-1.
It seemed to be more like PLII where the bass is lost and everything is coming from the center channel.

I bought an ATI AT525NC to replace the Sunfire. It was chosen because it runs cool (in a non air conditioned house) and I expect ATIs to be reliable.
I reviewed the AT522NC driving same the Revel M20s and it was impressive and dynamic.
The AT525NC will be installed in the spring and will reevaluate the X3700H performance with the new amp.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You tell me..

I think it might be coming back to me now.

I think Amir believes that THD+N of 0.001% (-100dB) is SOTA.

Gene believes that THD+N of 0.003% (-90dB) is enough to qualify for "SOTA".

I have to disagree with both. I think THD+N of 0.0001% is SOTA. Hells yeah, I can hear the difference.

 

[Verdinut]

Only golden ears hear a THD of 0.1%, so most of us don't have to pay $25,000 for an amplifier!

 

[PENG]

Only golden ears hear a THD of 0.1%, so most of us don't have to pay $25,000 for an amplifier!

I may agree with you on that, but unfortunately most don't measure THD and N separately but as a total. So 0.1% THD may not be audible to most, but 0.1% of noise is definitely and obviously audible in quiet rooms, though it may not bother most people.

Example:
0.1% is -60 dB so if you room's noise floor is 15 dB maximum at any frequency, and you have sensitive speakers like 92 dB/2.83V, then if you listen to a 1 kHz sine tone at 76 dB, the noise will be above the noise floor.

Try turning you Marantz AVR volume up to "0" when selected to a free input with nothing connected, you will likely hear something if you move your nears close to the speaker's mid/tweeter. Try moving the volume up and down if you are curious about at what point the noise would become audible/inaudible to you. As always, it depends. Gear like the AHB2 would guarantee you don't hear anything that don't belong. Wonder if @RichB can confirm that with some simple experiments.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Only golden ears hear a THD of 0.1%, so most of us don't have to pay $25,000 for an amplifier!

Oh, I forgot to mention that I've transcended from Golden Ears to Diamond Ears now. So I can hear a few extra zeros. Thus, these numbers are extremely important to me. I take them very seriously.

 

[RichB]

I may agree with you on that, but unfortunately most don't measure THD and N separately but as a total. So 0.1% THD may not be audible to most, but 0.1% of noise is definitely and obviously audible in quiet rooms, though it may not bother most people.

Example:
0.1% is -60 dB so if you room's noise floor is 15 dB maximum at any frequency, and you have sensitive speakers like 92 dB/2.83V, then if you listen to a 1 kHz sine tone at 76 dB, the noise will be above the noise floor.

Try turning you Marantz AVR volume up to "0" when selected to a free input with nothing connected, you will likely hear something if you move your nears close to the speaker's mid/tweeter. Try moving the volume up and down if you are curious about at what point the noise would become audible/inaudible to you. As always, it depends. Gear like the AHB2 would guarantee you don't hear anything that don't belong. Wonder if @RichB can confirm that with some simple experiments.

With the RMC_1 Off and the AHB2 on, I hear nothing with my ear pressed to the tweeter.
With the RMC-1 on and the AHB2 on, perhaps I can hear something, but I think I might fail a blind

I tried listening to the midrange but it turned out it was reflecting the sounds of the room.

I can say for certain that the Marantz had hiss at the tweeters and buzz in the center and rear channels.
The buzz was at normal levels (-30). I sometimes sit near the rears and the silence is wonderful.

Now that I am fully balanced, I have no hiss and no buzz.
While there may be no noise with non-balanced components, I see no reason to go back to rolling the dice.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

With the RMC_1 Off and the AHB2 on, I hear nothing with my ear pressed to the tweeter.
With the RMC-1 on and the AHB2 on, perhaps I can hear something, but I think I might fail a blind

I tried listening to the midrange but it turned out it was reflecting the sounds of the room.

I can say for certain that the Marantz had hiss at the tweeters and buzz in the center and rear channels.
The buzz was at normal levels (-30). I sometimes sit near the rears and the silence is wonderful.

Now that I am fully balanced, I have no hiss and no buzz.
While there may be no noise with non-balanced components, I see no reason to go back to rolling the dice.

- Rich

Thank you for the feedback, I am not surprised with the results.