Audiophiles getting their egos hurt .................

[Bucknekked]

Theory of knowledge, and the flaws of the human brain are something that really should be taught to all people from a very young age. Only then do we stand a chance to fight this nonsense.

I liked your post and the sentiment you expressed. Two thumbs up from me.
But the conclusion that if we just knew about it we could fight it or change it is probably a stretch.
Think about the silly phrase "think outside the box". The plain and simple truth is, you can't think outside the box on purpose. You are bound by your own filters, prejudices and knowledge base. You can only see through your eyes: complete with the built in filters.

To get outside that is pretty tough sledding. We can do it, for short periods of time with some effort.
But can we do it just because we know we are flawed, squirmy bags of inconsistent goo?
I dunno.

I enjoyed your thought however. I'm with you. We are the least consistent thing in our audio systems.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

This is ridiculous. Only benefit you'll ever get from aftermarket power cables is MAYBE better insulation, preventing or reducing a 60hz hum from reaching nearby signal cables.

The Audiophile world has always been full of snake oil salesmen, and the golden eared "experts" willing to fall on their swords in defense of their placebo experience.

The one that really made me realize the truth was the Hydrogenaudio.org study done on MP3 compression quality, where they wrote a piece of software that played an mp3 compressed with then "LAME --alt-preset standard" settings (today --preset standard) and just a direct .wav rip. Users could switch back and forth between the two versions of each sample as many times as they wanted before choosing which they thought was the mp3.

The blinded A/B test was made available to the community and a large sample set of audiophiles who thought they could hear "how bad mp3 sounds" on their own high end equipment, and determined that they culdn't tell any more than approximately half the time. In other words, the same as blindly guessing.

This study (now probably 15 years ago?) was eye opening to me, and illustrated how much placebo effect there is in this hobby. I probably fall for some of it too, but at least I am aware, have a somewhat science and engineering based background and try not to.

My favorite is the one where people claim to hear a difference between digital interconnects...

Almost without exception, included good quality AC cords are unshielded. The same manufacturers do make shielded AC cables, but, you know ... they cost $5 more. So you don't get one in the box.

Shielding can and does offer performance benefits in an AC cable. A lot of aftermarket AC cables offer just that benefit.

However I know of one "boutique" AC cable that is not terribly expensive ... the highest cost version is about $US 150, and they come in lesser cost versions that are appropriate in most cases. The basic version is less than $US 100, uses quality connectors, and is guaranteed to provide a voltage drop of less than 0.1% and a total loss of less than 0.1V over it's entire run (Industry standard is 3% voltage drop). If you have a high demand amplifier, it matters.

For most other applications a shielded AC cable from someone like VOLEX works just fine.

Fraunhoffer spent years developing the mp3 codec, using thousands of audience tests to fine tune the codec to be extremely difficult to discern. Then they contracted with the National Hockey League to use mp3 codec audio for hockey games with audiences totalling in the millions for a year, seeking feedback the entire time. Then they released the codec to computer software firms.

So it's hardly surprising that audiences of a few dozen had difficulty. The codec was designed specifically, and with audience feedback, to be indistinguishable from lossless audio. What is remarkable is that despite all that, some people can hear the difference, especially people such as sound engineers and mastering engineers.

 

[johndyson10]

I have uploaded some decoded demos -- not tuned perfectly with 100% proper DolbyA levels this time, but is at least an approx example. MP3 does NOT do the decoder justice at all. I don't remember the provenance of the carpenters' demo, but I think that it was HDtracks. This kind of demonstrates that even the premium suppliers can leak DolbyA material!!!

here is the location: https://spaces.hightail.com/space/z3H68lAgmJ

John

FYI -- and I know that this is slightly off topic, but is indirectly related to the potential 'snake-oil' issue regarding the whole audiophile excess (probably, but just slightly maybe not -- don't really want to hurt ANYONES feelings!!!)

Most importantly -- the source materials for my examples are commonly available, and I found the advantage of using the decoder by accident a year or so ago. That 'accident' of guessing that the 'harsh', excess HF 'digital' sound was that I thought that it JUST MIGHT be DolbyA encoding. I found my guess to be correct perhaps 1/4 to 1/2 of the time. There is one major problem in determining if something is DolbyA encoded or not -- sometimes ones' "ear" and the decoder both can be fooled. Sometimes material can be guessed to be DolbyA encoded and it really isnt. Sometimes the 'harsh sound' problme is really just bad EQ -- but just as often it really is DolbyA encoding. Another frustrating factor -- sometimes DolbyA encoding sounds so bad, that they EQ the DolbyA encoded master -- and therefore the sound is JUST A LITTLE better, but makes it more tricky to properly decode that material -- not only the threshold needs to be determined, but the errant EQ needs to be backed out for optimal results.

The two sets of items on my demo that I believe MIGHT not be DolbyA encoded (but the decoding sounds good) are the Nat King Cole example, and the Dionne Warwick examples. I am more sanquine about the Warwick being DolbyA than the Nat King Cole. It might help me if someone who REALLY knows the material help me determine if the decoded versions that I posted do sound correct!!! Thank you if you can help me with this...

I just uploaded slightly more accurate decoding examples. To me, the most interesting and surprising (even though it still doesn't sound perfect -- I think that it is good as possible, even with a real DolbyA) -- is the Scarborough Fair example. If you listen to the original -- there is lots of LF (yes, LOW frequency) distortion that is cancelled out by the decoder. The LF distortion occurs because of the fast attack/fast decay even at low frequencies (2msec attack/62msec decay.) The 62msec is too fast for a normal compressor at the lowest audio frequencies -- will definitely cause distortion. However, the expander (decoder) fits the curve closely enough to mitigate a lot of the distortion.

BTW -- off direct topic, but talking very technical -- the DolbyA compression/expansion is pure linear WRT the audio signal -- basically a full wave detector with some fancy tricks by the genius Ray Dolby. If the detection would have been RMS, the distortion would have been a lot less (squaring the signal instead of taking the raw signal) has two advantages -- first the resulting gain control signal has less ripple, and the attack/decay time constant would be used with the signal squared -- which slows down the gain control action. So, RMS would 'sound' better without decoding, but wouldn't work as good for hiding gain modulation. Any claims about RMS being better because of 'phase' isn't quite as operative as one might think -- because the bandwidths have been narrowed by the input filters, so the phase advantage is still extistent to an extent, but not as important as if the processing was single band (the whole audio signal.)​

Again, the examples are on the site, and will probably disappear within a few days.

Sincerely,
John

 

[highfigh]

Almost without exception, included good quality AC cords are unshielded. The same manufacturers do make shielded AC cables, but, you know ... they cost $5 more. So you don't get one in the box.

Shielding can and does offer performance benefits in an AC cable. A lot of aftermarket AC cables offer just that benefit.

However I know of one "boutique" AC cable that is not terribly expensive ... the highest cost version is about $US 150, and they come in lesser cost versions that are appropriate in most cases. The basic version is less than $US 100, uses quality connectors, and is guaranteed to provide a voltage drop of less than 0.1% and a total loss of less than 0.1V over it's entire run (Industry standard is 3% voltage drop). If you have a high demand amplifier, it matters.

For most other applications a shielded AC cable from someone like VOLEX works just fine.

Fraunhoffer spent years developing the mp3 codec, using thousands of audience tests to fine tune the codec to be extremely difficult to discern. Then they contracted with the National Hockey League to use mp3 codec audio for hockey games with audiences totalling in the millions for a year, seeking feedback the entire time. Then they released the codec to computer software firms.

So it's hardly surprising that audiences of a few dozen had difficulty. The codec was designed specifically, and with audience feedback, to be indistinguishable from lossless audio. What is remarkable is that despite all that, some people can hear the difference, especially people such as sound engineers and mastering engineers.

And how many of these $150 power cords are needed in a system? That doesn't meet "not terribly expensive", to me or most audio enthusiasts. Also, if a power cord reduces the line voltage by 1-3%, it's not the correct gauge.

So, they used mp3 audio in a HOCKEY ARENA to determine whether the audio quality was good enough to release? Why not just play music in a foundry and ask if the bass response is lacking?

 

[Johnny2Bad]

And how many of these $150 power cords are needed in a system? That doesn't meet "not terribly expensive", to me or most audio enthusiasts. Also, if a power cord reduces the line voltage by 1-3%, it's not the correct gauge.

So, they used mp3 audio in a HOCKEY ARENA to determine whether the audio quality was good enough to release? Why not just play music in a foundry and ask if the bass response is lacking?

The model with the specs I quoted is $85. 7.5 AWG x4, and the AC connector is a quality known brand model that is machined to accept the large gauge wire by a low-volume one man shop. I don't find the price outrageous; nobody works for free, and cable of that gauge is many times more expensive than 12GA, and generally is not available except by the full spool. And as I said, only needed if your power amp requires 13~15A / 120V (typically, more than 200W multichannel with a linear supply, or perhaps 800W mono) or perhaps if you are powering a whole-system AC distribution device.

Mostly mentioned to illustrate that there is no need to go "audio jewelry" for a very high quality AC cable.

3% meets UL / CSA requirements. What do you suppose a manufacturer would use for a throw-in AC cord?

A little experimentation with a Kill-A-Watt and a high load device (such as a 1500W electric kettle) and you soon see that 0.1% is uncommon and I've seen more than 3% in some cases.

RE: The NHL
Fraunhoffer was unable to convince audio software firms to pony up for the licensing fee.* Were it not for the contract with the NHL, the codec probably never would have made it out of beta. Arena music is far from HiFi but it is large audience, and they took advantage of it to verify the masking techniques used, since the practice prior was to use only a live organist rather than pop music which is common now. They wanted to know if audiences noticed a difference. It's all there if you check out the history.

* The mp3 patent expired just recently. Prior to that, all software that used the codec had to pay a licensing fee to Franuhoffer. So, for example, every time someone downloaded a copy of iTunes, Apple paid a fee for mp3 encoder / decoder (and about 25 other patent fees as well, most of which are still in force. Notably they usually paid one to Microsoft since their license terms for various audio / video codecs was free for any Windows app but not for any other OS or compatible application).

 

[Dmantis10]

People who don't use control systems with IR emitters don't see the benefits from replacement power cords that are shielded. Better Quality HDMI cables also fall into this as they leak and cause issues in ones system.

 

[johndyson10]

People who don't use control systems with IR emitters don't see the benefits from replacement power cords that are shielded. Better Quality HDMI cables also fall into this as they leak and cause issues in ones system.

The only issue that cables like HDMI can cause is a dropout. Good connectors are crucial for heavily used cables. As you know, there aren't any possibilities of jitter in the audio -- the real risk because of dropouts comes from a broken cable -- all of the timing is synchronized by fifos (or software/hardware equivalent techniques),and the output timing is EXACTLY the same as the crystal (or other timing mechanism) used in the output D/A. Everything internally is self clocked (even the signal from a DVD/CD),or held in relatively close timing (within the synchronization time of a latch or edge flip flop.)

MAYBE there might be the chance of EMI -- but I haven't heard of it being a problem? My old LSI-11 when I was in high school afforded the choice of watching TV or using my computer, but power supplies and shielding have gotten much better since then (that was in the '70s.)

My DolbyA compatible decoder deals with timing variations of 0.10seconds or more, yet maintains perfect 192k, 96k down to 44.1k timing in the audio. This is all because of buffering, and relative precision output clocks.

However, any time that there could be a DECREASE in signal dropout risks or bad-connector problems, then that is a good thing. i believe that connectors of heavily used (connected/disconnected) cables are the worst risk, and getting good connectors is very, very nice (or spare cables.)

The moral of the story is that the quality of cables/connectors is just that, and the carrying capacity of the cables is just that. The last time that I had to deal with 'timing issues' in cables is with ANALOG NTSC equipment -- and even then it wasn't all that critical as long as reasonable guidelines and pro quality equipment were used. (Old CDC6600 computers... Or was it early Cray computers, also had to be timed -- but the world was more primitive back then.)

John

 

[everettT]

People who don't use control systems with IR emitters don't see the benefits from replacement power cords that are shielded. Better Quality HDMI cables also fall into this as they leak and cause issues in ones system.

I've installed countless ir repeater systems and can't recall a cable causing an issue ever.

 

[highfigh]

People who don't use control systems with IR emitters don't see the benefits from replacement power cords that are shielded. Better Quality HDMI cables also fall into this as they leak and cause issues in ones system.

I have yet to see an example of a power cord causing problems for an IR system, but the cheap HDMI cables cause a lot and it's a known issue- has been, for a long time. 60Hz doesn't approach the frequencies used by IR, so it's unlikely to cause these problems.

 

[highfigh]

The model with the specs I quoted is $85. 7.5 AWG x4, and the AC connector is a quality known brand model that is machined to accept the large gauge wire by a low-volume one man shop. I don't find the price outrageous; nobody works for free, and cable of that gauge is many times more expensive than 12GA, and generally is not available except by the full spool. And as I said, only needed if your power amp requires 13~15A / 120V (typically, more than 200W multichannel with a linear supply, or perhaps 800W mono) or perhaps if you are powering a whole-system AC distribution device.

Mostly mentioned to illustrate that there is no need to go "audio jewelry" for a very high quality AC cable.

3% meets UL / CSA requirements. What do you suppose a manufacturer would use for a throw-in AC cord?

A little experimentation with a Kill-A-Watt and a high load device (such as a 1500W electric kettle) and you soon see that 0.1% is uncommon and I've seen more than 3% in some cases.

RE: The NHL
Fraunhoffer was unable to convince audio software firms to pony up for the licensing fee.* Were it not for the contract with the NHL, the codec probably never would have made it out of beta. Arena music is far from HiFi but it is large audience, and they took advantage of it to verify the masking techniques used, since the practice prior was to use only a live organist rather than pop music which is common now. They wanted to know if audiences noticed a difference. It's all there if you check out the history.

* The mp3 patent expired just recently. Prior to that, all software that used the codec had to pay a licensing fee to Franuhoffer. So, for example, every time someone downloaded a copy of iTunes, Apple paid a fee for mp3 encoder / decoder (and about 25 other patent fees as well, most of which are still in force. Notably they usually paid one to Microsoft since their license terms for various audio / video codecs was free for any Windows app but not for any other OS or compatible application).

This is just part of the same old debate- how will a few feet of heavier cable and two better plugs cause so much improvement (shielding aside) on a power line connection when the wire feeding the cheap receptacle is usually 14ga, 12ga at best? Could be solid, stranded, Romex or BX, but the fact remains- nobody used the best materials and it's unlikely that anyone cared about best practices when wiring the house. A few thin lines of direct wire to wire contact, wire nuts and a few screw-down connections from breaker panel to the receptacle at the equipment tells me that it's far less important than many believe.

What do I expect a manufacturer to use for a power cord? The cheapest one that will allow the device to work and (hopefully) meet spec. However, those specs no longer require the same relative precision of the past, so it's just using rule of thumb to choose a particular gauge.

The listening tests were flawed- I don't care who says they weren't. Asking people to listen for differences in sound in a noisy environment is ridiculous and the only reason the NHL signed on is because there was something in it for them.

 

[highfigh]

I've installed countless ir repeater systems and can't recall a cable causing an issue ever.

It's not the IR repeater systems with an IR pickup that may/may not be immune to stray light from the Sun, CFL/Plasma, etc- it's the remotes that use an RF receiver and IR emitters. URC had some RF receivers that were so sensitive that the only easy fix was to remove the antenna. They still have some sensitivity problems and the base station has a dial for setting the remote's address (it has a range of positions from zero to ten) that uses the zero position to test for stray RF- it lets all channels in and if this isn't assigned to another number, it can be controlled by any of their remotes, set to any channel.

 

[everettT]

It's not the IR repeater systems with an IR pickup that may/may not be immune to stray light from the Sun, CFL/Plasma, etc- it's the remotes that use an RF receiver and IR emitters. URC had some RF receivers that were so sensitive that the only easy fix was to remove the antenna. They still have some sensitivity problems and the base station has a dial for setting the remote's address (it has a range of positions from zero to ten) that uses the zero position to test for stray RF- it lets all channels in and if this isn't assigned to another number, it can be controlled by any of their remotes, set to any channel.

Yup I remember those old urc rf receivers.

 

[johndyson10]

It's not the IR repeater systems with an IR pickup that may/may not be immune to stray light from the Sun, CFL/Plasma, etc- it's the remotes that use an RF receiver and IR emitters. URC had some RF receivers that were so sensitive that the only easy fix was to remove the antenna. They still have some sensitivity problems and the base station has a dial for setting the remote's address (it has a range of positions from zero to ten) that uses the zero position to test for stray RF- it lets all channels in and if this isn't assigned to another number, it can be controlled by any of their remotes, set to any channel.

EMI/EMC issues can indeed be real and were in my caveat (I hope.) The real weak link other than just darned cheap cable that isnt even shielded by reasonable best practices, is the connector. The connector is a historical problem even on RF gear -- one can lose significant fractions of a dB or even more just in a connector.

The frustrating thing for me is the reasonable conflating between really bad cable vs. esoteric/snake oil cable. When I criticize comments about cable, it is only meant to be about snake oil cable (claims like silver plated cable all the way through plus 99.9999999% shielding having audibly superior behavior instead of good quality copper and good quality shielding -- ARE snakeoil.) There are DEFINITELY engineering situations where a normal good quality cable (or definitely cheap quality cable) might not be sufficient, but the solution is not to go to the local snake oil salesperson. I have a very nice engineering supply catalog sitting in my physical archives that have real industrial quality cables instead of the stuff that has 'big names' and 'relatively low quality'. The commercial cables aren't cheap either, but they are a good engineering solution.

John

 

[mattlach]

And how many of these $150 power cords are needed in a system? That doesn't meet "not terribly expensive", to me or most audio enthusiasts. Also, if a power cord reduces the line voltage by 1-3%, it's not the correct gauge.

I'd argue none are NEEDED, but they can make your life easier. Even at $150 they are a ripoff though. A standard 5ft grounded power cord costs $6.99 with prime on Amazon. Less without prime. Sure, added shielding has some cost to it, but probably not more than 50% or so.

The benefits come from greater shielding and insulation. AC power in the wall in the U.S. operates at a frequency of 60hz (in Europe and some other locations it's 50hz). If you have an unbalanced line level signal cable up close against a power cable, you CAN by induction get some of that 60hz signal in your pre-amplified signal level.

This is going to be worse if you have a low voltage source and the amplifier needs to work harder to amplify it up (as it will amplify the 60hz noise and source equally). You can help minimize this issue by keeping your line level signal cables separate from your power cables (though this can be more difficult than it sounds behind a receiver and amp., as there are a lot of busy cables going on there) Or you could invest in higher end gear that uses balanced cables.

Chances are - however - that you don't need it. Power on your amp but leave your sources off and just listen. Do you hear a 60hz hum? If not, you are fine.

I just rebuilt my HT setup, and even with my mess of cables back there (I tried very hard to keep power and line level signal as separate as possible) I had no 60hz hum what so ever. The only crossover/induction problem I had was that my USB IR receiver for my HTPC was up against the speaker wire for my center channel, which had the amusing effect of certain sounds on the center channel inducing remote control button presses on the HTPC, (I was rather surprised and amused by this) so I had to re-route the wire.

 

[Dmantis10]

I've installed countless ir repeater systems and can't recall a cable causing an issue ever.

Thats great I have.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

This is just part of the same old debate- how will a few feet of heavier cable and two better plugs cause so much improvement (shielding aside) on a power line connection when the wire feeding the cheap receptacle is usually 14ga, 12ga at best? Could be solid, stranded, Romex or BX, but the fact remains- nobody used the best materials and it's unlikely that anyone cared about best practices when wiring the house. A few thin lines of direct wire to wire contact, wire nuts and a few screw-down connections from breaker panel to the receptacle at the equipment tells me that it's far less important than many believe.

What do I expect a manufacturer to use for a power cord? The cheapest one that will allow the device to work and (hopefully) meet spec. However, those specs no longer require the same relative precision of the past, so it's just using rule of thumb to choose a particular gauge.

The listening tests were flawed- I don't care who says they weren't. Asking people to listen for differences in sound in a noisy environment is ridiculous and the only reason the NHL signed on is because there was something in it for them.

I can always count on you to follow and comment on everything I post, highfigh.

I stand by what I posted, people can read yours and mine and come to their own conclusions. Which is how it should be.

It's a beautiful night here and we have some exciting astral events going on tonight and tomorrow (Friday) night and I'm going to hop in the convertible and drive out to the country and have a good gaze.

Regards, bud.

 

[highfigh]

I can always count on you to follow and comment on everything I post, highfigh.

I stand by what I posted, people can read yours and mine and come to their own conclusions. Which is how it should be.

It's a beautiful night here and we have some exciting astral events going on tonight and tomorrow (Friday) night and I'm going to hop in the convertible and drive out to the country and have a good gaze.

Regards, bud.

I have heard the Aurora is supposed to be visible in Wisconsin this weekend- before they installed all of the street lights in our neighborhood (mid-'60s), we could see it from our back yard and that was just barely North of the Milwaukee city limits. If I had taken my camera on a ski trip to the UK, I would have gotten some shots of this when I drove into the wide open area North of Minoqua, WI- I came around a bend and the curtain of light stretched completely across the sky and up almost 45 degrees. I pulled over, so could take it all in- I have never seen anything like it since and it was amazing!

 

[Johnny2Bad]

I have heard the Aurora is supposed to be visible in Wisconsin this weekend- before they installed all of the street lights in our neighborhood (mid-'60s), we could see it from our back yard and that was just barely North of the Milwaukee city limits. If I had taken my camera on a ski trip to the UK, I would have gotten some shots of this when I drove into the wide open area North of Minoqua, WI- I came around a bend and the curtain of light stretched completely across the sky and up almost 45 degrees. I pulled over, so could take it all in- I have never seen anything like it since and it was amazing!

I don't know if I've ever mentioned it here, but I worked for many years in some of the remotest regions of Canada. Especially in winter when there is almost zero atmospheric moisture (cold air can't hold water) I would drive out to the gate of my compound around midnight daily to lock it. The number of stars and other astral bodies you can see under those conditions is staggering. No artificial light source for more than 20 miles in every direction, and I'm counting things like just a lighted building.

Even though where I live now is sparsely settled (my province, mid-sized by our standards, is roughly the area of Texas but contains only slightly more than 1 million people, most of whom live in the cities) and a drive perhaps 50 miles gets you into some pretty sparsely settled areas, it's nothing like I could see near the 60th parallel.