Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout Planned

[gene]

I'll paraphrase here....Axiom's Ian Colquhoun states they're in full support of ground plane testing instead of above ground and it wasn't the reason why they declined this invite. He went on to say ...they help to establish the CEA standard for others in the industry and to assist those whom don't have the resources or accommodation for such a test....the second reason he never specified and stated it's between him and Gene....of course! Oh one last note...I found it funny that Craigsub decided to throw his hat into the the rink...whatta surpise.....

This saddens me that Ian chose to be less than honest about this situation, especially since I took the high road and didn't mention Axiom by name in my article. I was simply venting manufacturer issues we've dealt with in the past when attempting to organize product shootouts.

I have email responses from Alan Lofft and Skype chats from Ian that directly conflict with his official statement in his forums. I really don't want to go down this road with Axiom. I value our long lasting friendship and business relationship we've had for 10+ years and I will leave it at that.

 

[Rickster71]

Just my 2 cents:
This is a situation when Consumer Report magazine's method would work well.
(While I realize the financial differences.) They anonymously buy the item being tested off the shelf. That insures a 'non-doctored' test subject, and the manufacturer can't opt out, or otherwise try to control the review, since AH would own the tested item. Then perhaps AH could sell or auction off the tested equipment later, to recoup expenses.

This may be the beginning of AH charging for reviews.
$5 or $10 for a review is a great investment; I'd then know the best place to spend my money on equipment. Considering the price of a sub, etc. a few dollars for a good review is money well spent.
Just trying to help think of a way to keep the manufacturers from controlling the reviews.

 

[the grunt]

Somewhat disingenuous claiming to take the high road for not naming a company while providing more than sufficient information to clearly identify specific companies involved IMO. Especially considering that AFAIK none of the companies made any public statements about this prior to the “The Insanity of the Loudspeaker/Subwoofer Shootout” editorial and ensuing forum speculation.

Main point here being the blending of editorializing with news. Audioholics does some of the best reviews in the business often targeting companies that would not otherwise see the light of day at other venues. However, when the editorial side creeps into the information delivery I just tends to muddy the waters, often cheapening the otherwise professional stature of the site.

Your site and certainly your right to editorialize, which can also be informative (e.g. the problems with arraigning reviews/shootouts). However, unless a company behaves so badly behind the scenes so as to completely ruin it’s credibility as a vendor, warranting a warning to the market about the quality of it‘s products/services, then I feel Audioholics would best be served by sticking to broader generalizations in such editorials keeping itself above the fray.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

I've been thinking on this myself, Rick. My thought was to see if it is financially viable to have shootout sponsors. AH buys equipment with help of a sponsor/s and then sells it on Audiogon or where ever. The sponsor/s should not have a interest on who wins or loses. Say a company like Blue Jeans Cable sponsors speaker/sub shootouts and not cable comparisons. Heck, The sponsor doesn't even have to be A/V related...Just a thought.



edit: I just wanted to add that I don't have a clue about the finances and or legal issues involved in these things...

 

[Matt34]

All this noise and the review isn't even out yet, imagine the unison shrieking of fanboies and naysayers everywhere when it actually does. Audioholics may just wreck the interwebs.

Gene,

Does this mean we all are getting year-end bonuses when it does? (This will give them something else to talk about, moderators get paid, wtf!!!)

 

[GranteedEV]

moderators get paid, wtf!!!

 

[Boerd]

All this noise and the review isn't even out yet, imagine the unison shrieking of fanboies and naysayers everywhere when it actually does. Audioholics may just wreck the interwebs.

Gene,

Does this mean we all are getting year-end bonuses when it does? (This will give them something else to talk about, moderators get paid, wtf!!!)

Can't wait for the review !!!
Could we have a list of the companies who were afraid to compete next to the ones that compete? I love it when I see audioholics are not into politics and they don't play games.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Just my 2 cents:
This is a situation when Consumer Report magazine's method would work well.
(While I realize the financial differences.) They anonymously buy the item being tested off the shelf. That insures a 'non-doctored' test subject, and the manufacturer can't opt out, or otherwise try to control the review, since AH would own the tested item. Then perhaps AH could sell or auction off the tested equipment later, to recoup expenses.

This may be the beginning of AH charging for reviews.
$5 or $10 for a review is a great investment; I'd then know the best place to spend my money on equipment. Considering the price of a sub, etc. a few dollars for a good review is money well spent.
Just trying to help think of a way to keep the manufacturers from controlling the reviews.

This is where a yearly premium membership could be attractive to many members here.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Audioholics may just wreck the interwebs.

...

Like that Oppo clone?

 

[Sheep]

I am really looking forward to this shootout, I even turned off adblock. Cool that Funky waves is going to be included in this. They are local to me, and if I can find an address, I might go down there and take some picture of that place. Although, the furniture store is up the coast a bit, little too far away for me, so if they're up there it's a no go.

SheepStar

 

[gene]

Good suggestions about sponsored shootouts but in reality no company wants to sponsor something that may reflect badly on another. This is a very small industry and everyone is connected in one way or another. The reality is we will likely just stick to discrete product reviews for everyone and tabulate products in a separate article that are tested via the same methodology so the readers can make their own comparisons.

The idea of selling equipment after we review is seems a bit petty to me and nobody on my staff, myself included, has the time to deal with that as well.

I have no desire to severe ties with any manufacturers which is why this seems to be the best course of action going forward.

My editorial was needed to be written for my own sanity. It felt good to vent a bit of steam for once. I am sure those that didn't appreciate it may see it differently had they been sitting in the captains chair.

I'd like to get this thread back on topic now for the up and coming shootout. Feel free to PM me with any questions/concerns on this topic if needed. thanks.

 

[jakeman]

It looks to me like Audioholics has taken alot of "creative license" with this ground plane vs. 4pi issue. I've had the privilege of testing several subwoofers at Axioms facility over the years. Both groundplane and 4pi testing were used, the 90 foot pole only on clear windless days. Both methods are fine and Ian has said that consistently many times. Groundplane is by far the more practical method and a standard. However it is a proxy for the more technically precise 4pi measurement. I highly doubt Axiom would have said anything much different. Which again makes me wonder where Audioholics is coming from.

This latest imbroglio in addition to the slanted comparison between the M60 and EMP E55Ti has me convinced that the people who run Audioholics need a primer in how to deal with their conflicts of interest. Audioholics needs to seriously rethink how they manage their business relationships in light of their zeal to expand and market new products at this website.

 

[gene]

It looks to me like Audioholics has taken alot of "creative license" with this ground plane vs. 4pi issue. I've had the privilege of testing several subwoofers at Axioms facility over the years. Both groundplane and 4pi testing were used, the 90 foot pole only on clear windless days. Both methods are fine and Ian has said that consistently many times. Groundplane is by far the more practical method and a standard. However it is a proxy for the more technically precise 4pi measurement. I highly doubt Axiom would have said anything much different. Which again makes me wonder where Audioholics is coming from.

Jakeman;

I was going to let this issue settle down but now I see the Axiom crowd wants to know more. Here is a PM Alan Lofft has been sending to readers inquiring why Axiom won't submit products to our shootouts. Since Alan Lofft is one of Axiom's most trusted employees, its safe to assume he speaks for Axiom, especially since he deals with customer emails on a daily basis.

Here is his exact message:
Thanks for your email and apologies for the delay in my response, but I honestly was pondering how to answer this.

Audioholics has reviewed several different models of our speakers, including subwoofers, and we're delighted at the response to Axiom from Audioholics site visitors.

However, on the subwoofer "shoot-out", we declined to participate because it's extremely difficult to properly measure true subwoofer output free of errors.

The only way to do it correctly is to have a tall outdoor tower, like Axiom's (90 feet) and do a 4-pi measurement of the sub hauled to the top of the tower on a very still and windless day. That, coupled with a large anechoic chamber, which Axiom also has, is the only means to correctly measure subwoofer frequency response and keep the competition fair.

Audioholics has neither of these facilities. Doing subwoofer measurements by a ground-plane measurement, or worse, in the room, is hopeless. The results apply only to that room, the listener's location and the sub location in that room. It would also require a double-blind listening facility and Audioholics has been reluctant to do such tests in the past. There are so many possibilities for erratic conclusions that we felt it was not in our interest to participate. The reviewer who will be doing the Audioholics tests also has some peculiar beliefs (based on his articles for Audioholics) that are not supported by our double-blind testing of loudspeakers and subwoofers.

I hope this is some help in explaining why we decided not to participate.

Kind regards,

Alan Lofft
***************

It was only after I was made aware of this response that I emailed Ian directly to refute this nonsense. That is when Ian made his statement about accepting groundplane but didn't denounce Alan's comments. Ian then came up with a new reason to not want us to review his sub. His new reason was that RBH was in the shootout and he claimed that RBH is an Audioholics E-store house brand despite the fact that RBH does NOT sell direct. It's important to note that the Audioholics E-store has offered on many occasions to integrate Axiom products to their offering. I honestly don't care what the Estore sells and doesn't sell. My primary goal with Axiom has always been to provide them honest product coverage and drive traffic to their site to make them a happy advertiser. Visiting them on an annual basis has always been a highlight of my work.

This latest imbroglio in addition to the slanted comparison between the M60 and EMP E55Ti has me convinced that the people who run Audioholics need a primer in how to deal with their conflicts of interest. Audioholics needs to seriously rethink how they manage their business relationships in light of their zeal to expand and market new products at this website.

My comments in the EMP review were written months prior to this situation. My comments focus on product strengths and weaknesses of all 3 speakers in that comparison. That is the point of a product comparison. I clearly stated there are people that would prefer the Klipsch or Axioms over the EMPs. The point was none of the 3 speakers were perfect but all were very good. I like the Axiom M60s despite a few issues I found. I like the EMP's despite a few issues I found. I don't really care for the Klipsch despite the Audioholics Estore sells them and they frequently advertise with us. Trust me when I say this, Klipsch sells more speakers than Axiom and EMP combined regardless of good/bad press. In fact Klipsch is the #1 selling speaker brand in the AH E-store. They are a trusted name with a loyal following and they NEVER complain about results of product shootouts. It speaks volumes about how the Klipsch business is run. They ALWAYS want to be in our shootouts!

I am not sure how far Ian and the folks at Axiom want to take this or if Axiom wants me to reveal the real reasons why they flew me up to their facility a few months ago. I personally wanted to end this before it got ugly. I still consider Ian and Amie friends and hope to resolve our differences over this.

I value the relationship I built with Ian and Axiom over the last decade. I appreciate all of their support on this site. My issues with them were never monetary. I just don't like having my site being misrepresented by Axiom employees, namely Alan Lofft. He has given us way too many black eyes in the past. It deeply hurts me as I opened my house to him as a guest at the exact time my wife suffered from an attack of Bels Palsy from her 2nd pregnancy. I placed priority on shooting a video for Axiom/Alan over rushing my wife to the doctor to be treated. Her own father had to help me in this crisis.

This is something I thought would never happen with my Canadian friends.

 

[billy p]

The Alan Loft email is the exact wording as the one I received from another member and I just emailed him eariler today to see he if still has a copy. I unfortunately deleted mine as per his request!

 

[billy p]

Gene, I believe they had issues more with Paul and his methodology and since you backed him is why they took issue...JMO!

 

[Audioholics]

And now I ask that we all get back to the topic of the sub shootout - particularly those products still involved. We're trying to get that completed ASAP and will likely start another thread and close this one so newcomers don't need to weed through all this off-topic stuff.

 

[gene]

RE: Earthquake Issue

I wanted to let everyone know the Earthquake issue has been resolved. We learned a lot from this situation about how emails can be a very impersonal way to communicate intent and thought. We will revisit a review with Earthquake at a later date. I am very pleased to be on good terms with them once again.

 

[jakeman]

Gene, thankyou for your response. In keeping with the mods wishes I will go offline with my response to you. However I will post my views at the Axiom site. Suffice it to say that I don't share Alan's view on the groundplane vs 4pi issue though I believe there are more important issues which Audioholics needs to reflect on. This will be my last post on this controversy here.

 

[GranteedEV]

I wanted to let everyone know the Earthquake issue has been resolved.

...k fine...you can post the review... if you lend us your web designer for a moment!"

 

[haraldo]

All this noise and the review isn't even out yet, imagine the unison shrieking of fanboies and naysayers everywhere when it actually does. Audioholics may just wreck the interwebs.

Gene,

Does this mean we all are getting year-end bonuses when it does? (This will give them something else to talk about, moderators get paid, wtf!!!)

This seem to be the event of the year