Audioholics 2010 Subwoofer Shootout Measurements Overview

[FirstReflection]

Oh, for the love of Pete...

YES, people, I am using hyperbole and making fun of companies for their short-comings. If you can't tell the difference between when I'm joking and when I'm being serious then you need to read more and talk to people more and learn a little something called human interaction. People make jokes and exaggerate. It's part of life. If that ruins your ability to read things on the Internet, well then, about all I can do is feel sorry for you.

What do you think reviews are? They're just a person's opinion and a recounting of their experience. You take that, you compare it to the other accounts and opinions and THEN you compare it to your own. Some times, something magical happens and you actually form your OWN opinion! I know! Perish the thought, right?

The biggest problem on any home theater forum is that people are afraid. I get it, this stuff costs a lot of money and you want to be sure that you are buying the absolute best product that you possibly can. Well guess what? You're never going to find that 100% certainty that you are looking for. There is never going to be a 100% consensus that "Product A" is THE perfect product in its category. There's still going to be some guy out there who believes that a Bose Bass Module is better than all of the subs we've mentioned here. And I'm sure you're all going to shout him down for his opinion and then try to convince him that YOUR favorite subwoofer is the REAL "winner".

What are you going to do when Audioholics finally posts the results of the shootout? Are you all going to suddenly back the "winner" and shout down any other suggestions? Or are you going to ***** and moan if your favorite ranks lower than 1st place?

What if the SVS PB12-Plus "wins"? Are you going to say that no one should favor any other brand? What about other models in the SVS lineup? Are you just going to assume that if the PB12-Plus is the winner here that the PB13-Ultra must be even better and the SB12-NSD can't possibly compete?

It's scary, I get it. That's why I spent a stupid amount of money on shipping and had a while smattering of subwoofers delivered to me four separate times in the last four years. Who knows, maybe I'll do it again. But this whole thing started because I wrote that I'm pretty much satisfied with all the comparisons that I've already done and now I just don't want the headache and the expense any more I've come to trust HSU because they're consistent. They're not always the absolute best, but I just don't really care anymore and I just want to buy subwoofers without putting so much effort and expense into it anymore. I'm satisfied. That's just me. If you all still want to keep searching for your favorite than more power to you!

If, on the other hand, you just want to buy a subwoofer without any hassle and trust that it will perform really well, bot cost more than it's worth and be delivered on time by a company that provides consistently good service, then maybe you'll appreciate someone like me sharing his experience and also his opinion of what panned out as the most consistently good choice. Maybe that's why forums like this exist...

 

[Bass Bum]

I got a chuckle out of the Salk comment and I took it for what it was.

 

[randyb]

Oh, for the love of Pete...

YES, people, I am using hyperbole and making fun of companies for their short-comings. If you can't tell the difference between when I'm joking and when I'm being serious then you need to read more and talk to people more and learn a little something called human interaction. People make jokes and exaggerate. It's part of life. If that ruins your ability to read things on the Internet, well then, about all I can do is feel sorry for you.

What do you think reviews are? They're just a person's opinion and a recounting of their experience. You take that, you compare it to the other accounts and opinions and THEN you compare it to your own. Some times, something magical happens and you actually form your OWN opinion! I know! Perish the thought, right?

The biggest problem on any home theater forum is that people are afraid. I get it, this stuff costs a lot of money and you want to be sure that you are buying the absolute best product that you possibly can. Well guess what? You're never going to find that 100% certainty that you are looking for. There is never going to be a 100% consensus that "Product A" is THE perfect product in its category. There's still going to be some guy out there who believes that a Bose Bass Module is better than all of the subs we've mentioned here. And I'm sure you're all going to shout him down for his opinion and then try to convince him that YOUR favorite subwoofer is the REAL "winner".

What are you going to do when Audioholics finally posts the results of the shootout? Are you all going to suddenly back the "winner" and shout down any other suggestions? Or are you going to ***** and moan if your favorite ranks lower than 1st place?

What if the SVS PB12-Plus "wins"? Are you going to say that no one should favor any other brand? What about other models in the SVS lineup? Are you just going to assume that if the PB12-Plus is the winner here that the PB13-Ultra must be even better and the SB12-NSD can't possibly compete?

It's scary, I get it. That's why I spent a stupid amount of money on shipping and had a while smattering of subwoofers delivered to me four separate times in the last four years. Who knows, maybe I'll do it again. But this whole thing started because I wrote that I'm pretty much satisfied with all the comparisons that I've already done and now I just don't want the headache and the expense any more I've come to trust HSU because they're consistent. They're not always the absolute best, but I just don't really care anymore and I just want to buy subwoofers without putting so much effort and expense into it anymore. I'm satisfied. That's just me. If you all still want to keep searching for your favorite than more power to you!

If, on the other hand, you just want to buy a subwoofer without any hassle and trust that it will perform really well, bot cost more than it's worth and be delivered on time by a company that provides consistently good service, then maybe you'll appreciate someone like me sharing his experience and also his opinion of what panned out as the most consistently good choice. Maybe that's why forums like this exist...

Boy you are long winded.

 

[emorphien]

words

There are good ways and bad ways to go about sharing your experience.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
What is it with subwoofer manufacturers? It's like they're all hiding some deep dark secret. Maybe the fact that they really don't know what the hell they are doing most of the time and just stick giant drivers into giant boxes with giant amps and set whatever price they think they can sell the damn thing at?

All I know is, after everything is said and done, I just wind up coming back to HSU every time. Want to review an HSU sub? Done. No problem.

Want to talk to Dr. Hsu about design and compromises and engineering and theory? Bam! He's right there and the man KNOWS his stuff.

Or how about just listening and realizing that pretty much every other subwoofer lacks the delineation provided by HSU's subs.

What can I knock about HSU? You have to go to their biggest and most expensive models if you want to truly troll the depths of 20Hz and below and do so at high output levels.

Is that a big deal? Not when you notice that HSU's most expensive subwoofers are still WAY cheaper than a lot of competing models.

.....I'm just sick of all the hype and games that subwoofer manufacturers play. It's a constant screw-job of diverting customers' attention so that they won't notice that they are paying and waiting for performance that will likely never actually arrive.

Personally, I'm done with the schenanigans. I just deal with HSU and it's one less thing to worry about in my life

Yep, it does seem that many are just playing games and trying to rely on name recognition and customer opinions.
I have known Dr Hsu for a long time now, about 12 years or so. Straight up kind of guy. He even posted for a while on line until people became very rude to him probably because they didn't like the answers

 

[emorphien]

Yep, it does seem that many are just playing games and trying to rely on name recognition and customer opinions.
I have known Dr Hsu for a long time now, about 12 years or so. Straight up kind of guy. He even posted for a while on line until people became very rude to him probably because they didn't like the answers

I've seen that happen on a lot of forums. People from a respected company in the industry try to contribute to the discussion and the forum members just want more and more things their way. Sadly that doesn't usually mean whats best for the company or even makes sense and whoever it is eventually stops being as active in that community.

 

[famorales]

Did anybody notice that the size listed for the Rythmik sub is too small?

 

[gene]

Did anybody notice that the size listed for the Rythmik sub is too small?

That was a typo and I fixed it. Thanks.

 

[Orobug]

I'm really looking forward to this shootout. Any word when the the results will be posted?

 

[bogrod]

Yep, it does seem that many are just playing games and trying to rely on name recognition and customer opinions.

One of the most interesting aspects that I am anticipating in this review is that is it worth paying 70% to more than double for one of the other three subs in this shootout, aside from something trivial like cosmetic appearance?

Hsu has always made most other sub manufacturers look waaay overpriced.

 

[Paul_Apollonio]

Who ran away scared from the shootout....?

So these four subwoofers are "the best of the batch".

I really, Really, REALLY (did I mention "really"?) want to know the other subwoofers that were "fair" or "mediocre".

I have not been following this shoot out. I know that there has been a lot of discussion about it on the forums. Would someone be willing to post a list here of all the subwoofers that were initially going to take part?

I am not the least bit surprised by the four subwoofers that remain. But I would REALLY (yes, "really") like to know which subwoofers withdrew and which were removed from the running!

Sorry Dude. On the check it notes this money is NOT to publish. Notice the truncation on the group photo. There was another entrant in the beginning. So far we have 3 drop outs. As for who is the best, I tested a huge folded horn that was so loud by compare, I had to move the mike to 12 feet away so as not to overload the equipment. At 63 Hz, it set off car alarms 50 plus feet away. THAT WAS COOL!.....LOL.

 

[Paul_Apollonio]

If you could measure good looks with a mike....

-The Funkywaves' veneer wipes the floor with the other three. Even if it's the worst performer in these CEA tests I don't care it's the prettiest!!!

-AHAHAHAHA the not-so-subtle jab made me LOL.

Don't know the jab you refer to. When I brought the Funkywaves into my lab, everyone at the company came in to look at the bamboo finish. It is absolutely the best looker of the batch. No contest on that count. (Just like my puppy!) LOL

 

[gene]

HSU Review Supplemental

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/hsu-vtf-15h-supplemental

 

[pbc]

Paul, what do you mean by this in particular? I.e., can you elaborate?

It was based on the poor damping near 30 Hz which is evident at or near maximum output levels of the system.

 

[pbc]

Also, would it be possible to post what the sweep levels were that correspond to each of the colors on the graphs?

 

[gene]

Also, would it be possible to post what the sweep levels were that correspond to each of the colors on the graphs?

The SPL calibration was performed for a different set of hardware and NOT for the CLIO. We post SPL data per CEA only for these subwoofer review series and and use freq sweeps to show product linearity under continuous testing. We stand by the calibrated SPL PEAK numbers from the Don Keele/Igor ro/Soundcard/mike Preamp setup.

If you want to extrapolate RMS data from CEA #'s subtract 3dB. If you want to relate it to in-room SPL add between 6-18dB depending on subwoofer location, frequency and room gain factors.

These SPL #'s are short term per the burst tests and don't take into account heating effects of the driver voice coil or power supply sag in the amp section. Heating effects during sustained output can account for addition compression of up to 6-10dB some of which can be seen in the CLIO curves.

 

[pbc]

The SPL calibration was performed for a different set of hardware and NOT for the CLIO. We post SPL data per CEA only for these subwoofer review series and and use freq sweeps to show product linearity under continuous testing. We stand by the calibrated SPL PEAK numbers from the Don Keele/Igor ro/Soundcard/mike Preamp setup.

If you want to extrapolate RMS data from CEA #'s subtract 3dB. If you want to relate it to in-room SPL add between 6-18dB depending on subwoofer location, frequency and room gain factors.

These SPL #'s are short term per the burst tests and don't take into account heating effects of the driver voice coil or power supply sag in the amp section. Heating effects during sustained output can account for addition compression of up to 6-10dB some of which can be seen in the CLIO curves.

Sorry Gene, not following possibly as I'm not familiar with the CLIO curves.

Are the sweeps in the above graph not something similar to what Illka was doing here ...

E.g., Each sweep was at an increasing level so that one could gauge at what levels compression started and at what frequency? I.e., in the above graph one could see that the sub started to compress when a 105db sweep was run compared to the 100db curve?

 

[gene]

E.g., Each sweep was at an increasing level so that one could gauge at what levels compression started and at what frequency? I.e., in the above graph one could see that the sub started to compress when a 105db sweep was run compared to the 100db curve?

Yes but Paul is extremely anal about accuracy. I personally show SPL levels for continuous sweep tests but Paul's argument is that actual SPL data may not be 100% accurate as it may not reflect losses from power supply sag, driver thermal compression and other issues. It's quite a complex topic to comprehend and I'd hate to put words into Paul's mouth. Perhaps down the road he can write up an article about it.

The max SPL on continuous reverse sine sweeps really doesn't accurately represent real-world output capability, which is the whole reason CEA-2010 was developed. But the data could nevertheless be useful from an academic standpoint. I personally publish it and compare all the subs I test like I did with the Emotiva sub.

The reason why I rated the Emo sub a 4.5 in performance wasn't b/c of its extension capabilities but b/c it was able to play at MAX SPL under extreme stress and the woofer never complained. Yes its extension is quite limited, but its also a very small sub and very conservatively designed. You can't break it.

Continuous tests are really useful in separating the men from the boys in subwoofers IMO.

 

[MinusTheBear]

BRING ON THE FUNK!

 

[Paul_Apollonio]

Also, would it be possible to post what the sweep levels were that correspond to each of the colors on the graphs?

The sweep levels I used varied from one sub to the other, as there was no standard output power for any given voltage input. (The input sensitivities are not standardized to volume knob position). What I did was this; I started at a low level where there was no question the sub was linear, and drove it up by 2db per curve (input voltage step) until the compression effects became visible to show that frequency response is a dynamic and not a static phenomena. When I first ran the HSU Sub, I had the volume knob set to maximum. It had so very much voltage gain that this caused the problem of having to use really LOW voltages on the input, so much so, I stopped, turned the gain to 12 noon (straight up) and reran the test. (ALL HSU CURVES ARE RUN ON CLIO WITH VOLUME GAIN SET TO NOON) Since the amp voltage gains, input sensitivity, and input sections differ from one sub to the next, standardizing the voltage input used in this test is not meaningful. MOST of the time, the red curve is 0.2 Vrms input. I have the ability with Clio to save 9 curves at one time, and display 10 (last one taken). Since the sweep is 14 second long, the power at the top curves is maxed out. What the power REALLY IS cannot be known without taking the system APART and measuring both the impedance of the woofer and the voltage at the terminals. (Which often results in the product being chipped or scratched meaning the vendors are getting back B stock, and no one wants that, especially me!) Since the mike is quite close to the box, and since some systems (Like the HSU if you look carefully) limit the input voltage at the highest frequencies, each system has been taxed a different amount of time before the power supply runs down to its final level of output. Still 14 seconds is a long time to pull maximum power, so below 100 Hz, this curve shows you what kind of frequency response to expect when you drive the product to the limits, clipping it frequently. As for getting a reference SPL, it would not be a fair contest at a mere 1 meter distance, since that number will be higher for smaller boxes than larger boxes when compared to a much great distance, as the smaller system will follow the inverse square law rule more closely than a really big box (like the Hsu) will. Another really good reason why that data was not collected is frankly, a swept sine signal is invariant in its demands on the subwoofer. We can collect that data, but for a power amp designed like the "ICE", it will be a lousy indicator of what kind of SPL's you would enjoy with music. (Unless you play it like a DJ not an audiophile). Subwoofer bandwidth signals have a VERY high crest factor, so the CEA test is a FAR BETTER determinant on what kind of peaks you can create than is the steady state test. Adding an additional set of numbers for the consumers may have been simply adding confusion to the mix. Even CEA suggests taking those 1/3rd octave numbers, and lumping them together into bigger groups, under the assumption that the 1/3rd octave numbers (what WE presented) is already too much information for the consumer to digest. Frankly despite the length of this reply, I am just scraping the surface here, there is much more to be said on this subject. Maybe later when GENE stops bugging me by SKYPE..... I hope that shed SOME light. - Mr Paul