Audiocluelessness in the Forums?

[agarwalro]

I was a Bose fanboy. I used to go to their stores repeatedly only to get the "demo" experience. I truly believed that Bose was the way to go. Then I joined the forum on AH, on the website I was able to gain knowledge, direction and finally I based my purchase decisions on input received in the forum. Today I don’t, say “Bose is crap or Bose sucks”, but know that for the price and with a little research anyone can set up a much better performing system.

Notice my signature. Thanks AH!

That said, InTheIndustry, I ask if you have been to other forums of a similar nature? Not just AV, but, car, motorbike, computers, wine, etc. The theme you describe is not unique to AH forums, not even unique to AV enthusiast discussions. If anything fanboys are generally looked down upon in AH forums as is flaming, swearing (moderator controlled), trolling, etc. So there is governance and the moderators have been able to achieve what can almost be called free speech. If there is an open ended question, in today’s connected times, the asker should expect to receive several answers, for whatever they are worth. So when there are several responses in a post, some are bound to be not as helpful as others. If the first response to every post was a complete, cogent and “correct” response to the question asked, there would be no need to have a discussion at all. As mentioned before, when someone recommends a lower costing alternative, the intent is not to be cheap or push a brand, but to recommend a more cost effective alternative that might provide 90% of the quality. (Damn, that was a generalization. But you get the idea.)

What can one do? I'm with Clint on the "Chicklet's" idea. Over time, people in the forum will stand out, whether it is for giving good advice or simply posting to forward their agenda.

Last but not the least, the person who asked the question needs to show some common sense and perseverance. When presented a response like, "speaker A is crap, go with speaker B or C", should not the person asking the question automatically ask, "why do you say speaker A is crap, and how can you say it is inferior to B or C". There will be people who get sent down the wrong path, but in my opinion the blame lies with them for not being diligent in their research.

 

[emorphien]

As mentioned before, when someone recommends a lower costing alternative, the intent is not to be cheap or push a brand, but to recommend a more cost effective alternative that might provide 90% of the quality. (Damn, that was a generalization. But you get the idea.)

I think it's also often that the responses suggesting less expensive gear are genuinely concerned that the person who asked the question doesn't know what they're getting in to and is gravitating towards something more expensive than what they really need to spend to accomplish their goals. As far as I can tell that's something I've noticed many times when people are asking for help, they get lost and start over-spec'ing the gear they're choosing.

For me that's the most common reason I'd suggest something less expensive, but the OP (original poster, or the person asking the question) could do well to avoid those kinds of responses by qualifying their choices and briefly stating why they've chosen the gear that they are interested in purchasing. More often than not they don't seem to know, so I know I've developed a habit of pursuing the question of whether they need to be spending so much.

 

[no. 5]

What can one do? I'm with Clint on the "Chicklet's" idea. Over time, people in the forum will stand out, whether it is for giving good advice or simply posting to forward their agenda.

Last but not the least, the person who asked the question needs to show some common sense and perseverance. When presented a response like, "speaker A is crap, go with speaker B or C", should not the person asking the question automatically ask, "why do you say speaker A is crap, and how can you say it is inferior to B or C". There will be people who get sent down the wrong path, but in my opinion the blame lies with them for not being diligent in their research.

That’s a good aid to learning, if "speaker A is crap", there must be specific reasons for that to be, if there are, the question asker has learned something; if not the question asker has learned that the responder's reply is based on opinion rather than fact... and to ignore future posts by that person.
People should also ask; "why B or C, why not D or E?" too.

I think it's also often that the responses suggesting less expensive gear are genuinely concerned that the person who asked the question doesn't know what they're getting in to and is gravitating towards something more expensive than what they really need to spend to accomplish their goals. As far as I can tell that's something I've noticed many times when people are asking for help, they get lost and start over-spec'ing the gear they're choosing.

IMHO, the reason for that ('that' being people that don't know what they are getting into) is that it's 'cool' to have a home theater, and so people want to have the 'coolness' of having a HT, but don't really have an interest in the technology or science, so when they are trying to assemble a rig, they must ask themselves; "what do I want?" the answer is naturally; "the best!"

The problem being "the best" is very subjective, that and the “best” is often veeeerrrrrrrry expensive. and you can find what you like the best for the best price, BUT, that takes auditioning and information - things that a lot of people find frustrating, because they want the 'cool' of a HT, but aren’t interested in the technology/physics behind it.
so they post something like; "I want/have X receiver Y speakers and Z subwoofer, because it's the best!/how do I hook it up?"

And that post will get a reply along the lines of what emorphien said.

 

[emorphien]

That’s a good aid to learning, if "speaker A is crap", there must be specific reasons for that to be, if there are, the question asker has learned something; if not the question asker has learned that the responder's reply is based on opinion rather than fact... and to ignore future posts by that person.
People should also ask; "why B or C, why not D or E?" too.

I agree. A lot of people will say they prefer something over another and mention factors like one sounding bright, another sounding "gritty" or other various harder to specify terms which may all make great sense to the person saying that's why they dislike a certain speaker. But, as is often said one mans garbage is another mans treasure and there are people who will love the speaker. Personally, I think B&W (and Paradigm) are vastly overrated and I have my reasons, but that's why in threads where someone is looking at speakers I just suggest alternatives because they might not like Paradigm or B&W. Often it seems the "noobs" feel sucked in to trying what a handful of people are saying is great and believing it's great because those people said it is.

I've certainly seen that on other forums I've been a member of longer. The member asks what to get and a few people push a certain brand claiming it's the best and the member goes and auditions but is already pre-convinced that speaker will be the best. They then buy it only to regret it a few months later.

I realize I'm probably not making much sense at this point, I haven't eaten in 8 hours and I'm starving and rather tired.

 

[jaxvon]

InTheIndustry,

First off, thanks for the compliment! I never knew my review made a real impact. As for the topic at hand, I will discuss and give advice on products that I do not own or have extensive experience with. However, when I do, I will often qualify my statements. Other times when we're discussing lower end gear from Denon, Yamaha, and Pioneer, I feel that I can make recommendations on it because the biggest differences between any of them come down to bells and whistles. More often than not, though, I make it a point to simply bring products to the attention of those reading and posting in the thread without making a suggestion either way. I've found the best way to shop is to take a group of prospects, then narrow it down. A lot of this can be done simply by taking the time to do research online with user opinions, reading manuals, etc.

What I'm trying to say is that I agree with you for the most part. People shouldn't be blinding pimping products, as I too often see here with internet direct brands.

 

[westcott]

In the not so distant past, I would have said that going to listen to a set of speakers or subwoofer at a dealer was the only way to fairly judge a piece of equipment. Well, I am changing my view of this.

I live near a major city, Houston. I probably have more access to dealers than most other people living in more remote areas. But, for better or worse, you are not missing much. I auditioned a lot of equipment before we built our shared space and saw a LOT of dealers and showrooms. It was a disappointing experience, most of the time. No consistency in setups, service, preparedness, etc. Some of the sound rooms were no more than converted warehouse space or open sales floors. Very few had dedicated rooms with dedicated equipment in each room. And I did not enter one facility that has a properly calibrated system or subwoofer. Half the time when I pulled out an SPL meter and a calibration DVD, the sales person asked what I was doing!!!! Others wanted help in setting up their system while I was there.

So, the advice of going and listening to a piece of equipment so one can be an authority on whether it sounds good or not is a very hit or miss affair. I am growing to believe that you are better off relying on the lab results of a trusted website like Audioholics to judge the performance of a piece of equipment. The only other option is to find a fellow audiophile with the same equipment setup and pay a vist to them.

But, if you think going to a "qualified dealer" is the answer, I think you are mistaken. Objective lab results that are consistent give everyones gear an equal chance to be compared against and is far more reliable than counting on a dealer to have a properly set up sound room with properly calibrated equipment.

 

[riceaterslc]

InTheIndustry, very interesting post indeed, and you make very valid points. But like most others have said, a lot of forums are very similar to audio/visual forums.

Clint D: great idea. maybe that should be in a stick "read this before you post" somewhere.

now, what really really REALLY gets me is people who make responses with improper English. than instead of then, their or there instead of they're, alot instead of a lot. most may be accustomed to this because it is common, but i for one cannot take anyone seriously for simple grammar mistakes.

and to the people who have several hundred/thousands of posts in a couple of months, how can you possible be using equipment often enough to post your recommendations all the time? how much equipment do you actually go through? get off the forums and watch a movie or listen to some music....

 

[davo]

most may be accustomed to this because it is common, but i for one cannot take anyone seriously for simple grammar mistakes.

..and when capital letters aren't used. GRRRRRRRR! (cheap humour)

 

[stratman]

InTheIndustry, very interesting post indeed, and you make very valid points. But like most others have said, a lot of forums are very similar to audio/visual forums.

Clint D: great idea. maybe that should be in a stick "read this before you post" somewhere.

now, what really really REALLY gets me is people who make responses with improper English. than instead of then, their or there instead of they're, alot instead of a lot. most may be accustomed to this because it is common, but i for one cannot take anyone seriously for simple grammar mistakes.

Exactly, same with punctuation and proper sentence structure.

and to the people who have several hundred/thousands of posts in a couple of months, how can you possible be using equipment often enough to post your recommendations all the time? how much equipment do you actually go through? get off the forums and watch a movie or listen to some music....

Here I would say it's with the quality of the posts, not the quantity. You're right it's not just equipment, but movies, music, the science, the market, any and all aspects of the industry that affect this hobby.

 

[MDS]

now, what really really REALLY gets me is people who make responses with improper English. than instead of then, their or there instead of they're, alot instead of a lot. most may be accustomed to this because it is common, but i for one cannot take anyone seriously for simple grammar mistakes.

I don't know why I feel compelled to reply to that kind of statement but here I go again...

Every so often that topic comes up and gets a lot of responses. I do have some pet peeves with spelling and grammar and the worst offense in my book is 'lose' vs 'loose', although 'to' vs 'too' would be a close second.

My issue with lose vs loose stems from one of the very first defects I worked on when I was first hired. I 'owned' the container control (folders in Windows) and I got a defect titled 'Container Looses Focus'. The concept of loose or tight does not apply to focus. I'll never forget that one.

One thing I find interesting is the use of gibberish in instant messaging. We use instant messaging all day long at work as most of our team is geographically separated. My friends, co-workers, and I all type in complete sentences when we talk via IM. Some of them are so anal that if they accidentally make a typo, their very next response is to write something like s/reciever/receiver, which is programmer speak for 'search and replace' reciever with receiver (as if I didn't know it was a simple typo). I cringe when I see the gibberish typical of IM communications elsewhere.

Enough of my rant...

Just overlook it. No sense coming down hard on people. Sometimes they are honest typos or momentary lapses. Then again, some people neither know nor care. [Hey, there's another one - either/or vs neither/nor ]

 

[ChrisJam]

Another peeve

snip

Every so often that topic comes up and gets a lot of responses. I do have some pet peeves with spelling and grammar and the worst offense in my book is 'lose' vs 'loose', although 'to' vs 'too' would be a close second.

My issue with lose vs loose stems from one of the very first defects I worked on when I was first hired...

I enjoyed your post, MDS.

I'm a full-time writer, and I'll add one of my peeves. Though yours are good ones and I agree with them, let me approach grammar peeves from a different angle: people who incorrectly criticize grammar, especially those people who are snooty when they do it.

Too many people think they know a grammar rule that doesn't exist. For example, we've all probably heard someone say "Don't end a sentence with a preposition." Hogwash! There's no such rule in the English language. It's the same for infinitives. There's no rule that says we can't split one. (I could explain why these fallacies became popular, but this is Audioholics, not Grammarholics, so I'll spare the details.)

Just overlook it. No sense coming down hard on people. Sometimes they are honest typos or momentary lapses.

A good friend of mine made a funny typo one time. He's a smart guy with a good education. (A good education does not guarantee good writing, though. Some of the worst writers I've seen have a doctorate degree.) My friend and I were e-mailing back and forth about an upcoming group dinner at his house. I asked what I could make, and he told me to bring a "desert." OK, that was obviously a typo. He knew the difference between "desert" and "dessert." But I decided to run with it. I searched the web for pictures of various deserts--Gobi, Sahara, Mojave, etc. Then I put them together so that they resembled a dessert. My friend was presented with his own desert dessert.

Yes, I also had a real dessert for him.

Chris

 

[stratman]

Here I would say it's with the quality of the posts, not the quantity. You're right it's not just equipment, but movies, music, the science, the market, any and all aspects of the industry that affect this hobby.

BTW I hope you didn't miss the sarcasm

 

[no. 5]

and to the people who have several hundred/thousands of posts in a couple of months, how can you possible be using equipment often enough to post your recommendations all the time? how much equipment do you actually go through? get off the forums and watch a movie or listen to some music....

Well, if you look through the posts in the forums (and even in this thread), you'll see that not every post is an equipment recommendation.

Here I would say it's with the quality of the posts, not the quantity. You're right it's not just equipment, but movies, music, the science, the market, any and all aspects of the industry that affect this hobby.

And, silly banter too.

 

[stratman]

Exactly!

 

[mtrycrafts]

.

and to the people who have several hundred/thousands of posts in a couple of months, how can you possible be using equipment often enough to post your recommendations all the time? how much equipment do you actually go through? get off the forums and watch a movie or listen to some music....

Why are you on then? Off you go to watch a movie and listen to music.

How do you separate out personal bias in recommendations?

 

[riceaterslc]

Why are you on then? Off you go to watch a movie and listen to music.

to learn, which i have somewhat. i hardly think my average 0.23 posts per day constitutes a lot of time on the forums.

 

[jaxvon]

I don't know why I feel compelled to reply to that kind of statement but here I go again...
[Snipped for shortness]

I completely agree. When I IM with my friends, I also use complete sentences. I use abbreviations like 'lol' and whatnot, but I always use complete sentences. I also make a point to correct misspellings and typos. But then again, I'm also the person that started this thread.

 

[Seth=L]

InTheIndustry, very interesting post indeed, and you make very valid points. But like most others have said, a lot of forums are very similar to audio/visual forums.

Clint D: great idea. maybe that should be in a stick "read this before you post" somewhere.

now, what really really REALLY gets me is people who make responses with improper English. than instead of then, their or there instead of they're, alot instead of a lot. most may be accustomed to this because it is common, but i for one cannot take anyone seriously for simple grammar mistakes.

and to the people who have several hundred/thousands of posts in a couple of months, how can you possible be using equipment often enough to post your recommendations all the time? how much equipment do you actually go through? get off the forums and watch a movie or listen to some music....

Ehem, I go through stuff like crazy. I know I haven't been here for more than I year, but I have learned a lot since I have been here and still learning. I also brought some prior knowledge with me (some skewed).

Given my situation it turns out I have enough time to watch movies and listen to music all the time and them post on the forum.

 

[mtrycrafts]

to learn, which i have somewhat. i hardly think my average 0.23 posts per day constitutes a lot of time on the forums.

Probably not, but just look at your post. Perhaps others can do their time management better? Just consider what you post

 

[Davemcc]

Given my situation it turns out I have enough time to watch movies and listen to music all the time and them post on the forum.

It must be time well spent because I find that your posts are helpful and informative.