Audiocluelessness in the Forums?

[InTheIndustry]

Is this Audioholics or Audioclueless?

I have to ask the question when members are arguing with the moderators (I don’t always agree with them either but they are usually on the money) and by no stretch is this post directed to people who don’t have certain types of product in their home. I think that if you’ve listened to something for more than a 10 minute demo it’s fair to give your opinion. I’ve stated before that people should know when they are wowed by something when using their past experiences with their current set-up as reference. Perfect example: I don’t always agree with Jaxvon, but I know that he tries to get around and audition new product and he writes some pretty in depth reviews giving his impressions. I think that’s awesome! To be honest, his (at least I think it was Jaxvon) review of the Phase Tech line made me call to inquire carrying the product. He was totally spot on with his take on the PC product. I love their line and think they are one of the best kept secrets on the consumer level in home audio. I almost feel like sending him a pair of the PC-9.1 he reviewed…. I said almost!

That being said, I am amazed at the number of "enthusiasts" on this site giving advice to others who have no practical experience with some of the products either being reviewed or asked about. If you have obviously no practical experience with the gear (or like gear) that someone asks about in a thread, why are you responding? Are your thoughts really going to be helpful? If a $35 power strip from - insert wholesale outlet here - works for your set-up, great. Recommend it to people with similar gear. But, for goodness sake does it belong in a thread about a high-end dedicated theater room? It is close minded and not helpful to people who are actually looking for something different than what you own.

The recent JLAudio F112 review thread is a great example of what I am talking about. Great product, intended for a certain type of market (the review even said as much) and people just start trying to bash it because they chose to spend less (some times astronomically less) or could spend less and satisfy their individual needs. They aren’t trying to add anything tangible or discuss their real life experiences with the product or anything even similar to it. Are people really that insecure with their purchases that they feel the need to justify their choices? Do you really need to state that it isn’t a good value if A: You’ve never heard it, and B: You’ve never owned anything in the same product category?

Members on here do the same thing as the A/V dealers they love to bash, only in reverse and out of ignorance instead of greed. It’s evident in nearly every thread. Members all the time are recommending products that are way way below the quality level that another member was asking about. Claiming that your $1500 sub is as good or better than a $3000 one is complete crap. I don’t think people are purposely trying to lie or misinform when they claim that a $350 Denon will sound the same as the $1200 one. They just don’t know any better from true experience. This is harmful to people who are really looking for an upper tier experience.

Yes, we’re all entitled to our opinion, but we’re not all qualified to give advice on every topic. I, for one, am sick of reading posts from people who have no business commenting on a subject. That can ultimately lead to bad advice. I believe that what Audioholics forums are here for is to allow like minded enthusiasts to discuss their experiences with A/V gear. Key phrase being like minded. If you think a $300 sub is the best thing ever, that’s great, but do those comments belong in the threads about product costing multiple times that? Do any of you other members or moderators see a continuing and growing problem like what I am describing? I guess if I start getting a bunch of red marks on my profile I’ll know.

Thanks for reading. Sorry if you’re all honked off about my post. If you are, though, chances are pretty good that I feel the same about some of yours.

 

[no. 5]

That was actually a refreshing read, Industry.

I agree with what you said, and I regret if had in any way contributed to the makings of that post; it's an incitement for myself to pay more attention when posting recommendations.

 

[MDS]

Claiming that your $1500 sub is as good or better than a $3000 one is complete crap. I don’t think people are purposely trying to lie or misinform when they claim that a $350 Denon will sound the same as the $1200 one. They just don’t know any better from true experience. This is harmful to people who are really looking for an upper tier experience.

I basically agree with the premise but the above quote is the same kind of blanket statement that needs qualification. Since your perspective is 'a high-end dedicated theater room' sure it would be pointless to make a blanket claim that the low-end receiver will sound the same as the high-end receiver.

However, many people have normal sized living rooms and ask what $1500 receiver they should buy as if the more expensive model will be leaps and bounds above the mid-level model. The average living room is far less demanding than a dedicated theater. I see nothing wrong with people suggesting the lower models in that situation as they will be plenty suitable.

The subwoofer choice is the same. My interpretation (which could be wrong) of your statement is that a $3000 subwoofer will always trounce a $1000 subwoofer. That is the old 'it costs more so it must be better' argument and with that I definitely disagree - especially in the context of the average living room. I read the JLAudio review and it sounds like a phenomenal subwoofer, but it also sounds like it is so powerful that you wouldn't be able to turn it up more than 1/16 of the way to max and that is definitely a waste of money for your typical living room - kind of like buying a Ferrari to drive through a school zone.

Even you disagreed with many of the dealer's choices for the room in the dedicated theater thread.

 

[tbewick]

InTheIndustry,

The argument used by people like myself stems from the application of statistics. If you do tests that use proper controls, such as is done in medicine with double-blind testing using a representative sample of a population, then the results can be applied to the general, larger population. This is the only way of obtaining results which are accurate and precise.

This method of testing is the only way to verify whether certain system features, such as cables or amplifiers, really do contribute audible effects. How do I know, or assume, for example, that a product claiming to break-in speaker cables has no audible effect? from what I would view is the reasonable assumption that the effect of this product would not be resolvable in a properly controlled subjective test.

I would say that generally speaking, people make inquires based upon their interest in whether or not a system component will sound better than another component. I do not think that trial by experience, without proper listening controls, adds to knowledge of the subject, and more often than not is misleading. It is exactly comparable to the subjective results provided 'complementary' medicine testing as opposed to the rigorous testing done in modern medicine adhering to the scientific method.

 

[Tom Andry]

I do believe we've tried to address this in the past. Read here - specifically the section on experts.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... They just don’t know any better from true experience. This is harmful to people who are really looking for an upper tier experience.

Yes, we’re all entitled to our opinion, but we’re not all qualified to give advice on every topic. I, for one, am sick of reading posts from people who have no business commenting on a subject. .

I guess then, you have unbiased experience when you comment and give advice, right? Or, is it really biased and one must take it like an opinion in which case, it is not much different.

What is harmful to people is to claim one is speaking from authority and must be believed to be right, right?
If you are sick of reading, please don't read any more posts. I am sure your doctor will be pleased that we are not the cause of any illness.

 

[emorphien]

I basically agree with the premise but the above quote is the same kind of blanket statement that needs qualification. Since your perspective is 'a high-end dedicated theater room' sure it would be pointless to make a blanket claim that the low-end receiver will sound the same as the high-end receiver.

However, many people have normal sized living rooms and ask what $1500 receiver they should buy as if the more expensive model will be leaps and bounds above the mid-level model. The average living room is far less demanding than a dedicated theater. I see nothing wrong with people suggesting the lower models in that situation as they will be plenty suitable.

The subwoofer choice is the same. My interpretation (which could be wrong) of your statement is that a $3000 subwoofer will always trounce a $1000 subwoofer. That is the old 'it costs more so it must be better' argument and with that I definitely disagree - especially in the context of the average living room. I read the JLAudio review and it sounds like a phenomenal subwoofer, but it also sounds like it is so powerful that you wouldn't be able to turn it up more than 1/16 of the way to max and that is definitely a waste of money for your typical living room - kind of like buying a Ferrari to drive through a school zone.

Even you disagreed with many of the dealer's choices for the room in the dedicated theater thread.

Point and counterpoint, you have both made valid statements I think.

 

[Tom Andry]

On the flip side, just because someone says they're "in the industry" and talks a good talk doesn't mean they aren't some deaf/mute shut-in that lives in their grandma's basement. We take much at people's word and it is up to the reader to filter through the BS. We could (theoretically) have every post moderated so that we could weed through each one before it was posted so that any such statements, "I've heard that X brand is great," are filtered out but we'd need a huge staff and it'd be mighty hard to get any actual work (oh, like reviews and editorials and stuff) done. Not to mention, we'd only succeed in encouraging people to lie and say that they do own / have heard everything. In the end, it'd kill the forum... you know, now that you mention it...

 

[emorphien]

On the flip side, just because someone says they're "in the industry" and talks a good talk doesn't mean they aren't some deaf/mute shut-in that lives in their grandma's basement. We take much at people's word and it is up to the reader to filter through the BS. We could (theoretically) have every post moderated so that we could weed through each one before it was posted so that any such statements, "I've heard that X brand is great," are filtered out but we'd need a huge staff and it'd be mighty hard to get any actual work (oh, like reviews and editorials and stuff) done. Not to mention, we'd only succeed in encouraging people to lie and say that they do own / have heard everything. In the end, it'd kill the forum... you know, now that you mention it...

That would also require everyone to accept the assumption that you guys are being fair about everything and whoever is filtering/accepting the submitted posts isn't pursuing their own personal interests or operating off their own preferences.

If this site or any other worked that way, I'd leave before it had the chance to kill the forum.

 

[mike c]

...- kind of like buying a Ferrari to drive through a school zone.

huh!? ... how'd you know my dream situation?

yes I was a nerd in high school with no car.
I'd like to go back in a kickass car with a kickass sound system with kickass biatches in the back seat.

 

[MDS]

yes I was a nerd in high school with no car.
I'd like to go back in a kickass car with a kickass sound system with kickass biatches in the back seat.

I had a 1973 Datsun 240Z in high school and my mom stuck the wrong key in the ignition (the key for my dad's 280Z) and ruined it. For a few weeks I had to do the solenoid trick where you use a screwdriver on the solenoid to get the starter to spin. I was too embarassed to do it and my sister would do it for me before I got out to the parking lot.

Imagine trying to impress the girls with that situation. Uh, hold on I have to use a screwdriver to start the car.

I don't miss high school at all.

 

[Davemcc]

InTheIndustry,

I understand what you're saying. I try to be helpful in my own limited way, but I try not to sound like an expert and I'm certainly willing to be contradicted at any time without argument.

But what you're saying is right and I'll give an example in my own experience. When I found the Hsu Ventriloquist, I read as many reviews as I could find and it seemed like decent bargain system, so I mentioned it a few times. But even so, I hadn't heard it and was uncomfortable recommending it without hearing it, so I bought the system for my bedroom to satisfy my own curiosity. As it turns out, it's not a system that I would recommend. So yes, you are absolutely right to argue that people should not recommend equipment that they haven't heard. It only cost me $99 over the price of an STF-3 to learn that lesson.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

I'd like to go back in a kickass car with a kickass sound system with kickass biatches in the back seat.

I assure you, once you score that Lamborghini you'll lose all intrest in going anywhere near a highschool.

 

[majorloser]

I assure you, once you score that Lamborghini you'll lose all intrest in going anywhere near a highschool.

True, but you do need to check ID's on the girls to come around

majorloser
clueless, but I admit it

 

[Tom Andry]

If this site or any other worked that way, I'd leave before it had the chance to kill the forum.

How exactly is your leaving NOT killing the forum? That's what I meant, it would drive everyone away which would kill the forum.

 

[emorphien]

How exactly is your leaving NOT killing the forum? That's what I meant, it would drive everyone away which would kill the forum.

I'm saying that people might stay, but it would stifle debate and individuality and make the threads that people post meaningless. Certainly there would be a bunch of people who would leave but there are some forums that operate with every post being moderated and they're pretty awful.

 

[Audioholics]

What I got from that post was that InTheIndustry finally realized that there are hundreds if not thousands of people running around on forums (this and others) who will recommend, comment on, disparage and/or promote equipment and products they have NEVER USED or OWNED.

Welcome to reality... now what to do about it.

People also tend to assign their financial position to every recommendation they make - so someone with a $2000 budget for a projector can't fathom anyone spending $10,000 on a projector, or $2000 on a projector screen, etc...

I for one would LOVE to start seeing tons of people on the forums just ask one innocent little question to posters who make any recommendations or give any feedback on products. That innocent question would be: "Do you own this product? Have you used it for any serious amount of time?" (OK, that's two questions)

And I'd like to see a thunderous WAVE of red chicklets for anyone who makes a comment akin to: "I've never heard/viewed/used the XYZ Product, but I hear it's got excellent...." By self-definition this is a worthless contribution to a thread.

Let's start a revolution!!!!

 

[Sheep]

I assure you, once you score that Lamborghini you'll lose all intrest in going anywhere near a highschool.

Speak for yourself, Woo! High School girls!

SheepStar

 

[Sheep]

What I got from that post was that InTheIndustry finally realized that there are hundreds if not thousands of people running around on forums (this and others) who will recommend, comment on, disparage and/or promote equipment and products they have NEVER USED or OWNED.

Welcome to reality... now what to do about it.

People also tend to assign their financial position to every recommendation they make - so someone with a $2000 budget for a projector can't fathom anyone spending $10,000 on a projector, or $2000 on a projector screen, etc...

I for one would LOVE to start seeing tons of people on the forums just ask one innocent little question to posters who make any recommendations or give any feedback on products. That innocent question would be: "Do you own this product? Have you used it for any serious amount of time?" (OK, that's two questions)

And I'd like to see a thunderous WAVE of red chicklets for anyone who makes a comment akin to: "I've never heard/viewed/used the XYZ Product, but I hear it's got excellent...." By self-definition this is a worthless contribution to a thread.

Let's start a revolution!!!!

I haven't read any of your review, but I hear your a great reviewer...

Hahaha

SheepStar

 

[mkossler]

...there are hundreds if not thousands of people running around on forums (this and others) who will recommend, comment on, disparage and/or promote equipment and products they have NEVER USED or OWNED...
I for one would LOVE to start seeing tons of people on the forums just ask ..."Do you own this product? Have you used it for any serious amount of time?" ...And I'd like to see a thunderous WAVE of red chicklets for anyone who makes a comment akin to: "I've never heard/viewed/used the XYZ Product, but I hear it's got excellent...." By self-definition this is a worthless contribution to a thread.

Let's start a revolution!!!!

Hallelujah, amen!

I have accepted that the baggage that comes with reading and participating on these fora is the ever-present raging opinion that (I think) is generally based on a desire to be liked and/or admired. Luckily for this forum, this is generally offset by a wealth of knowledge, entertainment and humor, and we all eventually learn who those people are that provide the value-add.

To me it does often get frustrating, wading through the chaff to get to the substance. I usually wish I had more to offer when I post, but I try to remind myself of some basic rules (for me) before I start typing:

- If someone has already said it well, my "me too" adds nada.
- Youth and inexperience are everywhere, and everyone starts somewhere, sometime. Tolerance and patience are not fatal.
- If it's a debate among respected peers, it's worth the time and effort. If it's an argument on a forum about sweeping generalities, it's a waste of life.
- Opinions are functionally worthless.
- Advice based on experience is not an opinion, it's advice.
- My caviar is somebody else's stinky fish.


One last observation.

I personally think that sweeping generalizations are anathema to knowledge sharing ("Yamaha owners are all..." "Those Bose-heads never..." "Everyone knows that Sony is hiding defects from..."). It is these that seem to get "picked up" by some that would like to be regarded as experts, and now seem to be the most common phenomena on forums everywhere. I have come to hate the words "always", "never", "all", and "none".