Audio Power Cables / Cords - Do they really make a difference?

[haraldo]

I could get on board with higher gain, but more musical?

I'm jumping ship

It's probably something to do with the amp, not cables.....
Less distortion via balanced input, or something.....

 

[jinjuku]

So when it came down to put up or shut up........he shut up?

I can't and won't postulate. I can only put out the facts as I have them of this post.

Any theories will be up to the individual reader here.

 

[jinjuku]

I don't understand this attitude, do people want to advance by finding out the truth or is it just popular to make fun of people that believe cables may make a difference.....

?? I don't think in this instance that anyone is being made fun of for their belief. It could be that they may be getting ribbed over the fact that I want to present the night and day component at a meeting of speaker designers and builders and all the sudden the silence is deafening.

This is the third time that I have offered in some form to very publicly participate in this type of experiment. It's also the third time it's been met with the sound of crickets.

Once at Polkforums, once at AVSForum, and apparently here now.

Time to add another bookmark to the pile for future reference of cleaving people from their beliefs.

 

[jinjuku]

If Jinjuku, or others don't hear any difference, doesn't mean there's no difference anywhere else, if there's a difference for you, there's a difference for you....

We are doing this on the predicate of 'Night and Day' differences. I think it's more than fair to put this out in front of some designers and see if there is a transfer function of the cable that is different from stock cord.

Let me know what cables you want to ship. I'll cover shipping both ways.

 

[jinjuku]

In my rig, between dac and amplifier, I changed from quite expensive single ended kimber cables to simple and cheap balanced canare cables from Blue Jeans cable... I'm 100% sure there's a clear and distinct advantage to the cheaper alternative. Darn if I know what's the difference but it's there. (Since then the kimber's been put to rest)

Then it is most likely measurable. Anyone can make a cable and purposefully alter it and market the difference. Could be that the RCA on your amp is acting poorly. Did you have a chance to compare the Kimber to some BlueJeans RCA?

But in the context we are currently talking we are indeed talking about absolute night and day differences that should be readily appreciable by even the layperson let alone some brilliant speaker designers.

 

[Irvrobinson]

In my rig, between dac and amplifier, I changed from quite expensive single ended kimber cables to simple and cheap balanced canare cables from Blue Jeans cable... I'm 100% sure there's a clear and distinct advantage to the cheaper alternative. Darn if I know what's the difference but it's there. (Since then the kimber's been put to rest)

The only other different thing is then that I take the input to my amp fully balanced instead of single-ended, perhaps that makes a difference. Stereophile and many many others claim there should be no difference using single ended and balanced input on this amp.

There should be no difference but it's there and it's not in my imagination, darn if I know it's measurable or not....

At least it's for sure my opinion that it makes a difference how you cable your system, just don't know how or why?

This is an entirely different situation than power cords, though I'm still dubious that there are such audible differences, there are good reasons while there at least could be audible differences.

1. The DAC's balanced outputs may have circuitry advantages over the single-ended outputs, like it may have a lower output impedance, and be capable of driving the amp better.

2. The balanced input on the amp may have characteristics that cover for a weak output stage in the DAC, like a higher input impedance.

3. The gain in the amp's balanced input stage is probably *lower*, which may be beneficial in some way for the overall gain hierarchy in the system, and could lower noise or distortion.

4. You didn't mention your cable length, but common mode cancellation on long balanced cables is a real advantage, and at low voltage levels can easily be audible. I use 45 feet of interconnect between my preamp and amp, and I wouldn't think of using a single-ended cable for that.

Power cords aren't even in the signal path, while the scenario you describe includes factors outside of the cable differences.

Still, I'm skeptical that there really is a highly audible difference, unless your DAC or your amp are in some way poorly designed.

 

[haraldo]

This is an entirely different situation than power cords, though I'm still dubious that there are such audible differences, there are good reasons while there at least could be audible differences.

1. The DAC's balanced outputs may have circuitry advantages over the single-ended outputs, like it may have a lower output impedance, and be capable of driving the amp better.

2. The balanced input on the amp may have characteristics that cover for a weak output stage in the DAC, like a higher input impedance.

3. The gain in the amp's balanced input stage is probably *lower*, which may be beneficial in some way for the overall gain hierarchy in the system, and could lower noise or distortion.

4. You didn't mention your cable length, but common mode cancellation on long balanced cables is a real advantage, and at low voltage levels can easily be audible. I use 45 feet of interconnect between my preamp and amp, and I wouldn't think of using a single-ended cable for that.

Power cords aren't even in the signal path, while the scenario you describe includes factors outside of the cable differences.

Still, I'm skeptical that there really is a highly audible difference, unless your DAC or your amp are in some way poorly designed.

The DAC in question is a Benchmark DAC1
I don't know for sure the impedance characteristics but it has a very high gain on both balanced and single ended outputs, there are internal dip switches to set gain, and it's set to maximum. I realize no issues from the DAC side driving anything, this is a pro product that is also made to quite high standards in all areas.

SHORT CABLES ONLY - Cable length is very much the same 1 feet for the balanced and 1.2 feet for single ended

The amp is a Krell KAV 400xi, I don't see why there would be any impedance matching issues anywhere....

As I got to in my last post it's probably due to what you stated or internal differences in the amplifier, I could of course check this further by getting the exact same canare cable as a single-ended too.... but what's the point

There is not a revolutionary difference but there is a difference, and it's not imaginary!

 

[Irvrobinson]

The DAC in question is a Benchmark DAC1
I don't know for sure the impedance characteristics but it has a very high gain on both balanced and single ended outputs, there are internal dip switches to set gain, and it's set to maximum. I realize no issues from the DAC side driving anything, this is a pro product that is also made to quite high standards in all areas.

SHORT CABLES ONLY - Cable length is very much the same 1 feet for the balanced and 1.2 feet for single ended

The amp is a Krell KAV 400xi, I don't see why there would be any impedance matching issues anywhere....

As I got to in my last post it's probably due to what you stated or internal differences in the amplifier, I could of course check this further by getting the exact same canare cable as a single-ended too.... but what's the point

There is not a revolutionary difference but there is a difference, and it's not imaginary!

With equipment like that and short cables I can't believe there is even a measurable difference in performance, no less an audible one. Now I'm really on the page of skepticism.

(FWIW, I use a Benchmark HDR as a pre-amp, and I agree that it can drive virtually any amp load, single-ended or balanced, without a problem.)

 

[haraldo]

With equipment like that and short cables I can't believe there is even a measurable difference in performance, no less an audible one. Now I'm really on the page of skepticism.

(FWIW, I use a Benchmark HDR as a pre-amp, and I agree that it can drive virtually any amp load, single-ended or balanced, without a problem.)

You can be as skeptic as you want..... there is a difference
I didn't say it's measurable, perhaps it's not measurable but it's for sure audible

in cables, dac or amp....

 

[fuzz092888]

You can be as skeptic as you want..... there is a difference
I didn't say it's measurable, perhaps it's not measurable but it's for sure audible

in cables, dac or amp....

I believe what Irv was getting at, is that if it's audible, then it's measurable. Otherwise it's in your head. Maybe I'm wrong, that's what I got out of his post.

 

[haraldo]

I believe what Irv was getting at, is that if it's audible, then it's measurable. Otherwise it's in your head. Maybe I'm wrong, that's what I got out of his post.

I know it's what Irv suggest and I disagree with him in this, and many others do

It would be interesting to know what it actually is though.... I heard others saying same things about same amp......

 

[JerryLove]

Audible is easy to test for. Blind, level-matched testing would establish an audible difference or lack thereof.

Most annoying part is finding a rapid level-matching switch.

 

[jinjuku]

Audible is easy to test for. Blind, level-matched testing would establish an audible difference or lack thereof.

Most annoying part is finding a rapid level-matching switch.

If the discernment of audibility falls victim to lack of rapid switching then it isn't a difference of a big enough delta to fret about IMO.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I believe what Irv was getting at, is that if it's audible, then it's measurable. Otherwise it's in your head. Maybe I'm wrong, that's what I got out of his post.

That is exactly correct.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I know it's what Irv suggest and I disagree with him in this, and many others do.

If it isn't measurable then I have no idea how we could hear it. Contrary to popular, non-scientific belief we can measure with far more accuracy that we can hear. It isn't even a close call when it comes to electronics and cables. To put it another way, I think there might be an audible difference between some active electronic components *because* we can measure actual differences. Other than resistance, capacitance, and inductance you can't measure any differences between properly designed cables at audio frequencies.

 

[mtrycrafts]

If Jinjuku, or others don't hear any difference, doesn't mean there's no difference anywhere else, if there's a difference for you, there's a difference for you....

Yes, but it could be imagined differences. For the facts, one does need to do a controlled listening test. If imagination is accepted, nothing else matters and no need to discuss it.

 

[JerryLove]

It doesn't matter.

If it's audible it can be proved audible without measurement.

Blind (level matched) listening tests will determine audibility.

 

[jinjuku]

If Jinjuku, or others don't hear any difference, doesn't mean there's no difference anywhere else, if there's a difference for you, there's a difference for you....

If there isn't a difference for me and a room full of talent then I won't have any qualms about pointing people to that for reference when potential snake oil is being sold.

 

[haraldo]

That is exactly correct.

you're stating this as an indisputable fact not even suggesting there may be more to this than what you know.... Strange....

do you really think you do have all the answers.....

 

[Irvrobinson]

you're stating this as an indisputable fact not even suggesting there may be more to this than what you know.... Strange....

do you really think you do have all the answers.....

Look at it this way, haraldo, if our theory of how electrical conductors worked was so flawed, that there were factors we were unaware of that are so great that they were audible to humans, how would things like very large scale integrated circuits work, that depend on these same theories but require accuracy in understanding conductivity many, many times greater? The microprocessors and networks that we're all using to type and transmit these posts on, how would they function if these theories were so incorrect?

This discussion reminds me of those who deny evolution, asserting that the theory is incomplete or incorrect, when the proof is so overwhelming. There are even important industries (like pharmaceuticals) that depend on evolution being correct. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim we have limited understanding and then post the opinion on a product that for intents and purposes is a miracle of precision based on that very understanding.