At what frequency to crossover to sub?

[sakete]

I often see a default recommendation of setting a 80hz crossover in the AVR to the subs.

I'm using Revel F206 speakers and yesterday, when I received my Hsu sub, I set the crossover to 80hz at first, and then to 60hz on my Yamaha AVR (keeping the front speakers set to "Large" meant no audio was routed to the sub at all for music playback). And to me at 60hz it sounds slightly better, with a better stereo image in the lower regions. I know bass is not supposed to be directional, but the difference between 80hz and 60hz was noticeable enough that I preferred it.

Is this fine, or should I really just keep it at 80hz?

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

No reason not to go with what sounds best to you. I’ve had to run largish bookshelf speakers full-range with a sub crossed at 90 Hz, because the midbass sounded better that way.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[TLS Guy]

I often see a default recommendation of setting a 80hz crossover in the AVR to the subs.

I'm using Revel F206 speakers and yesterday, when I received my Hsu sub, I set the crossover to 80hz at first, and then to 60hz on my Yamaha AVR (keeping the front speakers set to "Large" meant no audio was routed to the sub at all for music playback). And to me at 60hz it sounds slightly better, with a better stereo image in the lower regions. I know bass is not supposed to be directional, but the difference between 80hz and 60hz was noticeable enough that I preferred it.

Is this fine, or should I really just keep it at 80hz?

Do what sounds best. Generally the rule of thumb is that you set the crossover to the F3 of the main speakers +50%. In the case of your speakers that would be 75 Hz, which is nearer to 80 Hz than 60 Hz.

Your speakers might sound better with LFE + main, but I don't think Yamaha allows that like Denon/Marantz.

 

[gene]

Do what sounds best. Generally the rule of thumb is that you set the crossover to the F3 of the main speakers +50%. In the case of your speakers that would be 75 Hz, which is nearer to 80 Hz than 60 Hz.

Your speakers might sound better with LFE + main, but I don't think Yamaha allows that like Denon/Marantz.

Yamaha does allow LFE+Main or they call "Extra Bass".

Yamaha RX-A6A 9.2CH 8K AV Receiver Bench Test Results!

We bench tested the Yamaha RX-A6A 9.2CH 8K 150watt/ch Atmos/DTS:X Receiver to gauge power output and uncover performance issues we discovered. We discuss the proper settings for best power delivery.

www.audioholics.com

 

[lovinthehd]

Might also try a higher crossover.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yamaha does allow LFE+Main or they call "Extra Bass".

Yamaha RX-A6A 9.2CH 8K AV Receiver Bench Test Results!

We bench tested the Yamaha RX-A6A 9.2CH 8K 150watt/ch Atmos/DTS:X Receiver to gauge power output and uncover performance issues we discovered. We discuss the proper settings for best power delivery.

www.audioholics.com

Good to know. Using that setting is often the best solution and not used enough. Only my in wall system uses a full crossover and my Atmos speakers. All the others are LFE + main. That sounds best and gives the best measurements. You need to make sure you have robust drivers though. My SEAS KEF and Dynaudio drivers can take it.

 

[McC]

I just got a pair of Revel 206s that I'm driving with a Parasound Hint integrated amp. You don't specify which Hsu sub you have, but I have the VTF-3 MK5. So far, I've found their integration to be a bit challenging. Initially, I tried running the Revel's full range and bringing the sub in using the built-in 4-order x-over around 40Hz to fill in. That, nor variations of that worked very well for me. I changed the phase on the sub and improved some things but not others. I have raised the x-over frequency, stuffed and unstuffed the ports, and switched to using the 2nd-order HP/LP x-over built into the Parasound with mixed results.

I stumbled upon a measurement thread of the 206s at ASR HERE. Post #32 includes settings for his PEQ. The WiiM Pro Plus I have has a PEQ built in so I set it according to his settings and it did improve a few things, but the sub integration still isn't there yet. Currently, I am running the Revelsfull range (Parasound HP x-over - Off), and the HSU (Parasound LP x-over - On) set to about 50Hz. The results in my room are tolerable but not great.

Check out the post over at ASR as it might help if you have a PEQ. If not, it may still give you some useful information that might help.

 

[TLS Guy]

I just got a pair of Revel 206s that I'm driving with a Parasound Hint integrated amp. You don't specify which Hsu sub you have, but I have the VTF-3 MK5. So far, I've found their integration to be a bit challenging. Initially, I tried running the Revel's full range and bringing the sub in using the built-in 4-order x-over around 40Hz to fill in. That, nor variations of that worked very well for me. I changed the phase on the sub and improved some things but not others. I have raised the x-over frequency, stuffed and unstuffed the ports, and switched to using the 2nd-order HP/LP x-over built into the Parasound with mixed results.

I stumbled upon a measurement thread of the 206s at ASR HERE. Post #32 includes settings for his PEQ. The WiiM Pro Plus I have has a PEQ built in so I set it according to his settings and it did improve a few things, but the sub integration still isn't there yet. Currently, I am running the Revelsfull range (Parasound HP x-over - Off), and the HSU (Parasound LP x-over - On) set to about 50Hz. The results in my room are tolerable but not great.

Check out the post over at ASR as it might help if you have a PEQ. If not, it may still give you some useful information that might help.

Thank you for that post. The problem is those speakers, quite clearly revealed in those measurements and the design choices the designers made.

The problem is one encountered far too often in three way speakers.

The root cause of this failure is an inadequate mid range driver.

This really is an object lesson in what can go wrong if you are not careful.

The problem is that null between about 150 and 300 Hz or so. That is actually an octave.

This is a really important octave and a major power band, especially for orchestral music.

The cause of this is the crossover points, at 275 Hz and 2150 Hz.

The problem is that that midrange driver does not have nearly the bandwidth adequate to be a decent midrange driver.

So a low passive crossover at 275 Hz was chosen. Passive crossovers below 400 Hz are really bad news. The components both inductors and caps are just too large. I learned in my designs to not design a passive crossover below 400 Hz a very long time ago. Even there, they are tricky.

This low crossover was necessitated by the mid range driver having inadequate top end extension. A decent midrange driver should be able to reach 3,500 Hz and preferably 4000 Hz. This allows it to cover the speech discrimination band and the crossover points not suffer from stacking.

If you have mids that require a cross below 400 Hz then that speaker needs to have active electronic crossovers and at least two amplifiers.

Unfortunately so many mid range drivers really are not, and do not cover anything like the midrange bands. In this speaker crossing at 275 Hz I consider the bass range. In my book bass is up to 350 Hz at least and I consider midrange the speech discrimination band from 400 Hz to 4000 Hz. or at least 3,500 Hz.

There really is no easy remedy for your problem or actually at all as the FR of the mid is essentially too narrow. However removing the low pass to mid crossover and replacing it with an active crossover and bi-amping it would help. However that is a major engineering undertaking which I feel the quality of that mid range driver does not justify.

Unfortunately your only viable solution is speaker shopping.

 

[sakete]

Thank you for that post. The problem is those speakers, quite clearly revealed in those measurements and the design choices the designers made.

The problem is one encountered far too often in three way speakers.

The root cause of this failure is an inadequate mid range driver.

This really is an object lesson in what can go wrong if you are not careful.

The problem is that null between about 150 and 300 Hz or so. That is actually an octave.

This is a really important octave and a major power band, especially for orchestral music.

The cause of this is the crossover points, at 275 Hz and 2150 Hz.

The problem is that that midrange driver does not have nearly the bandwidth adequate to be a decent midrange driver.

So a low passive crossover at 275 Hz was chosen. Passive crossovers below 400 Hz are really bad news. The components both inductors and caps are just too large. I learned in my designs to not design a passive crossover below 400 Hz a very long time ago. Even there, they are tricky.

This low crossover was necessitated by the mid range driver having inadequate top end extension. A decent midrange driver should be able to reach 3,500 Hz and preferably 4000 Hz. This allows it to cover the speech discrimination band and the crossover points not suffer from stacking.

If you have mids that require a cross below 400 Hz then that speaker needs to have active electronic crossovers and at least two amplifiers.

Unfortunately so many mid range drivers really are not, and do not cover anything like the midrange bands. In this speaker crossing at 275 Hz I consider the bass range. In my book bass is up to 350 Hz at least and I consider midrange the speech discrimination band from 400 Hz to 4000 Hz. or at least 3,500 Hz.

There really is no easy remedy for your problem or actually at all as the FR of the mid is essentially too narrow. However removing the low pass to mid crossover and replacing it with an active crossover and bi-amping it would help. However that is a major engineering undertaking which I feel the quality of that mid range driver does not justify.

Unfortunately your only viable solution is speaker shopping.

Isn't speaker shopping always the answer?

 

[sakete]

I just got a pair of Revel 206s that I'm driving with a Parasound Hint integrated amp. You don't specify which Hsu sub you have, but I have the VTF-3 MK5. So far, I've found their integration to be a bit challenging. Initially, I tried running the Revel's full range and bringing the sub in using the built-in 4-order x-over around 40Hz to fill in. That, nor variations of that worked very well for me. I changed the phase on the sub and improved some things but not others. I have raised the x-over frequency, stuffed and unstuffed the ports, and switched to using the 2nd-order HP/LP x-over built into the Parasound with mixed results.

I stumbled upon a measurement thread of the 206s at ASR HERE. Post #32 includes settings for his PEQ. The WiiM Pro Plus I have has a PEQ built in so I set it according to his settings and it did improve a few things, but the sub integration still isn't there yet. Currently, I am running the Revelsfull range (Parasound HP x-over - Off), and the HSU (Parasound LP x-over - On) set to about 50Hz. The results in my room are tolerable but not great.

Check out the post over at ASR as it might help if you have a PEQ. If not, it may still give you some useful information that might help.

I have the HSU VTF-2 MK5

 

[TLS Guy]

Isn't speaker shopping always the answer?

No, not always, but in your case it is. There is another issue I should mention, speakers with a low crossover like yours mate very poorly with subs, due to "stacking" of the crossovers. That is probably why your system sounded better with the 60 Hz crossover. However if you lower it further you will make things worse. So what you have is the best you can do with what you have.

 

[sakete]

No, not always, but in your case it is. There is another issue I should mention, speakers with a low crossover like yours mate very poorly with subs, due to "stacking" of the crossovers. That is probably why your system sounded better with the 60 Hz crossover. However if you lower it further you will make things worse. So what you have is the best you can do with what you have.

So what are good speakers that pair well with subs? I'm not saying I'm going to buy new speakers, very happy with my Revels, but I am curious.

 

[TLS Guy]

So what are good speakers that pair well with subs? I'm not saying I'm going to buy new speakers, very happy with my Revels, but I am curious.

The vast majority of speakers will match fine with subs. The only speakers you absolutely need to avoid are ones with low frequency crossovers and I would say they means below around 400 Hz.

The reason is that you can not make a decent crossover if the crossover points are too close together.

If you cross at 80 Hz for instance, then you the next crossover needs to be at 350 Hz at least and not below. That gives you a two octave spacing between crossover points. So 400 Hz gives you a better margin.

So what you want is both the high pass and low pass crossovers to be 24 db down at the crossover point if possible. Otherwise you get unpredictable gains and cancellations due to the phase shifts caused by the crossovers.

 

[TLS Guy]

So what are good speakers that pair well with subs? I'm not saying I'm going to buy new speakers, very happy with my Revels, but I am curious.

I suppose it depends on what you listen to, but I would bet that the lower strings, especially the cello section, lack weight and have too much string over body.

 

[Trell]

The vast majority of speakers will match fine with subs. The only speakers you absolutely need to avoid are ones with low frequency crossovers and I would say they means below around 400 Hz.

Almost all of those will have a crossover lower than 400Hz, so here we are.

 

[McC]

Thank you for that post. The problem is those speakers, quite clearly revealed in those measurements and the design choices the designers made.

The problem is one encountered far too often in three way speakers.

The root cause of this failure is an inadequate mid range driver.

This really is an object lesson in what can go wrong if you are not careful.

The problem is that null between about 150 and 300 Hz or so. That is actually an octave.

This is a really important octave and a major power band, especially for orchestral music.

The cause of this is the crossover points, at 275 Hz and 2150 Hz.

The problem is that that midrange driver does not have nearly the bandwidth adequate to be a decent midrange driver.

So a low passive crossover at 275 Hz was chosen. Passive crossovers below 400 Hz are really bad news. The components both inductors and caps are just too large. I learned in my designs to not design a passive crossover below 400 Hz a very long time ago. Even there, they are tricky.

This low crossover was necessitated by the mid range driver having inadequate top end extension. A decent midrange driver should be able to reach 3,500 Hz and preferably 4000 Hz. This allows it to cover the speech discrimination band and the crossover points not suffer from stacking.

If you have mids that require a cross below 400 Hz then that speaker needs to have active electronic crossovers and at least two amplifiers.

Unfortunately so many mid range drivers really are not, and do not cover anything like the midrange bands. In this speaker crossing at 275 Hz I consider the bass range. In my book bass is up to 350 Hz at least and I consider midrange the speech discrimination band from 400 Hz to 4000 Hz. or at least 3,500 Hz.

There really is no easy remedy for your problem or actually at all as the FR of the mid is essentially too narrow. However removing the low pass to mid crossover and replacing it with an active crossover and bi-amping it would help. However that is a major engineering undertaking which I feel the quality of that mid range driver does not justify.

Unfortunately your only viable solution is speaker shopping.

Unfortunately, we don't have measurements of the drivers in the cabinet without the X-overs so I'm unwilling to make sweeping judgments about them. Near-field measurements don't account for the cabinet, driver spacing, etc. That said, there are some things in these measurements I am curious about.

Looking at the port measurement the ascending asymptotic rate flattens and extends near parallel to the lower woofer. Given the relatively large diameter of the port it appears the woofers are contributing to the change in asymptotic rate. Put another way, sounds from the drivers are not being damped within the cabinet so that the port output is generated solely by the pressure within the cabinet. Any change in the asymptotic rate also changes the phase response. Of course, that can work for you or against you in summation.

Another question I have is regarding the decending asymptotic rate of the midrange driver. Since we don't have measurements of the driver without the X-over we don't know what the actual response of the driver in the cabinet is. We do see again a change in the rate through that same region before changing to a steeper rate again. I am unable to say whether this is due to the midrange driver itself or the X-over.

Given that these are near-field measurements I have to assume that the mic was moved from one woofer to the other when each was measured. Still, the differences in their measurements suggest at least the possibility of different X-over characteristics. If so, I would expect shifts in their phase response making it even more difficult to achieve proper summation with the midrange.

Without measurements of the drivers without X-overs I can't be certain of any questions I have. I do see poor response summation through the midrange/woofer X-over region. It appears there may be a few possible contributory factors. We just don't have enough information. Revel claims X-over points of 275Hz and 2150Hz. In the graph above the 2150Hz claim appears to be close. The claim of 275Hz looks to be closer to 225Hz according to the measurements above.

The response after EQ suggests that one might have better success using the 24db X-over built into the Hsu sub near the knee where the 206 drops off, around 30 to fourty Hertz. Without EQ it would be nearly impossible to achieve an acceptible integration with a sub. This will be the approach I take from here. This is where I regret selling my test gear 20-years ago.