Ascend vs AV123 in 300 dollar range

[kazza2ud]

quality speakers on budget, considering ascend 170s

I currently have 2 old sony bookshelf speakers, and I'm considering two options.

1) Use them as L and R and buy a nice center
2) Use them as surrounds and buy possibly 3 170s for L/C/R

My question is if I wanted to save money and go for option (1), or even if I go for option (2), can I use a 170 as a center? It's a big fat squarish speaker.. I'm not sure where it would fit. I have heard so many good things about Ascend but I find their selection of centers to be limiting, there's the 200 you can knock over on its side but is less quality, or the 340 which is probably way more than I need.

So my subquestion is if I'm looking for decent quality speakers that aren't too bright, that can handle a fair amount of bass (since I won't have a sub), is Ascend a good choice, and what do you guys think of this setup/choice of a center? I know there are other good brands like Axiom and Athena etc. And one final bit of thought, since I'll have to get speaker stands anyway, is it worth looking into a relatively cheap tower speaker that's more of a...bookshelf speaker on a stand, if you know what I mean.

 

[j_garcia]

Absolutely you can use a 170 as a center - that is why they sell singles. These guys don't really handle a lot of bass though. They go low, but not low enough to me, and long term I wouldn't use them without a sub. If the plan is to add a sub, then by all means...

If you want more low end for the money IMO, the Encore X-LS from www.av123.com should do the trick. They also have towers that aren't much more.

Athena doesn't exist anymore.

IMO a cheap tower doesn't buy you anything over a better quality bookshelf, however in the price range that we are talking about - when you include stands, yes you are at the point where you could get comparable quality in a tower vs bookshelf w/stands. Note though, the stands can be reused for your next speaker, so they aren't just going to go away - you still have that cost up front for the stands though.

 

[kazza2ud]

I may add a sub later, I'm not sure. I was originally going to spend like 450 bucks on a Klipsch Quintet 2 and a yamaha sub, but then I stopped and thought, why am I being a consumer whore and buying into the hype of these systems with tiny little satellite speakers when I've never liked the sound of tiny speakers? So now I'm considering the above.

As for the Encore X-LS, are they recognized as quality speakers? (I've just started looking into all of this). I also noticed there is an x-sls encore which is the same thing but in a tower, for 50 bucks more per speaker. It says it has better bass.. is that because it has... well why would it?

Is it a general consensus that Encore is near the quality of Ascend?

(Also, I'm intending this system mostly for movies and games)

 

[kazza2ud]

This is what I found in another forum

"The Ascend 170SE's is going to be the ideal choice if you are looking for an incredibly neutral speaker that can render exceptionally clean and clear dialog. Special effects such as bullets whizzing by are rendered very well with these speakers. This clarity comes at the expense of dynamic "oomf". While the bass is clean and clear - theres not a whole lot of it.

The Onix XL-S is a good all around speaker. Its built very well and looks pretty good to boot. It has a warm and laid back presentation that makes for great two channel listening. While the XL-S has good detail and surprising dynamic range, its laid back character translates into subdued special effects during action films."

I think onix is the same as AV123, i think.

 

[calnbs]

The answer is yes Onix and AV123 are the same. AV123 X-series are nice speakers. Their build are top notch for the price you pay for. Go the their website and ask for an audition or you can just order them and if you are not happy, they will give you a full refund (including shipping).

Here is a review from Home Theater on their older model. The newer model is suppose to be much better but it does cost a little more than the previous model. I believe the x-series are on sale right now.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/compactspeakers/707onix/

 

[kazza2ud]

The only ones I see at av123.com are the encores, but most reviews are using the classic models, so it's confusing.

I'm having trouble finding a comparison between the encore x-sls tower and the 170SE.

I'm also torn between using my old stereo speakers and just getting a new center, getting new speakers for L/R and using the old ones as rear channels, and a phantom center, or getting all new L/R/C.

Another concern is that if I get Encores, I'd later have to choose between a 130 dollar center and a 400 dollar center, if I want to get the same brand.

haha i'm dazed and confused

 

[mazersteven]

1) Use them as L and R and buy a nice center

IMO this is not even an option.

 

[jostenmeat]

haha i'm dazed and confused

You obviously have done at least a healthy amount of research. The rest can only be answered by you. If you weren't dazed and confused, it would mean you haven't researched quite enough.

Ive brought up the point of stands' costs many times, including here at audioholics. I think one of the best attributes of bookshelves is the ability to mount them higher as surrounds to fire over blocking furniture.

My friend bought some 170s on my rec. He loves their clarity. One really nice thing about ID is the ability to buy single speakers for centers. Its really the ideal thing to do, having a vertical speaker for center, let alone truly matching the soundstage.

If you are considering the l/c/r, then I vote you do it. If I could vote for another option, I say phantom towers if only to possibly get a better pair of speakers.

Just to confuse you more, I like PSB Images for the money. Towers for $500, b25 bookshelves for $300, or smaller b15s for $230. Shipping is $25 from Saturday Audio, but you can't buy single speakers perhaps? If you think Ascend 170 is big, just wait till you see the b25. I say they are warmer for sure, perhaps a very slight veil (but Im used to expensive speakers), and their best attribute is the ability to crank it to high hell with ease. Not as clear as Ascend. Looks are a push, slight edge to PSB, but it won't win a beauty contest.

 

[mazersteven]

So my subquestion is if I'm looking for decent quality speakers that aren't too bright,

brands like Axiom and Athena etc.

Both get reviews of being bright (or forward).

Axiom - Titanium tweeters
Athena - 1" Aluminum Dome, 1" Teteron Dome

 

[jaxvon]

Both get reviews of being bright (or forward).

Axiom - Titanium tweeters
Athena - 1" Aluminum Dome, 1" Teteron Dome

"Brightness" is merely a function of the individual tweeter and crossover design. The material used to manufacture the diaphragm is irrelevant.

To stay on the topic, the CBM-170SE is a a great little speaker. It has very flat frequency response, is very neutral, and isn't of great cost. The drivers and crossover are of great quality. The off axis response isn't great though, so you might not get the most even sound throughout the room. The cabinets lack any sort of bracing, which definitely presents a problem in terms of fidelity. The undamped resonances from the panel walls will color the sound in such a way that masks the midrange and midbass. As much as it sounds like I am disparaging this speaker, it is of no lower quality than most commercial speakers, ID or dealer-only, and because of its high quality drivers and crossover coupled with a low price, it is a phenomenal value. As a bonus, with modifications, you can turn the CBM-170SE into a nearly perfect near-midfield monitor, provided you are pairing it with stereo subwoofers.

 

[mazersteven]

"Brightness" is merely a function of the individual tweeter and crossover design. The material used to manufacture the diaphragm is irrelevant.

There is definitely a difference, both in theory and practicality. In order to vibrate quickly enough to reproduce the top octaves, designers must choose a material that has a very high stiffness value, and very low mass. The stiffness of the material allows the tweeter to reproduce the highest octaves cleanly, without distortion, or dome breakup. A low mass is required for proper high frequency extension (the tweeter needs to vibrate pretty fast to play at 20khz), and transients.
Metal domes (aluminum, titanium, etc.) have a very high stiffness/mass ratio and exhibit the best pis tonic movement of any material. However, metal, as you may know, also suffers from a complete lack of self-damping. Imagine a bell. After you''ve struck its metal sides, it continues to ring for seconds beyond the time of impact. On the other hand, stamp on your carpeted floor. You''d hear a thump at the moment of impact, but no drawn-out sound. The same can be said of metal tweeters. Although they have a high stiffness/mass ratio, they lack internal damping and suffer from "ringing" which can be seen in a simple impulse response curve. Designers, wanting to take advantage of metals'' high stiffness/mass ratio, have come up with a number of ways to deal with a metal''s lack of internal damping, with varying degrees of success. One way is to apply damping material to the metal''s surface, but that of course, raises the mass of the tweeter and consequently lowers the tweeter''s stiffness/mass ratio. Other designers have sought their own creative ways to tune the tweeter and push the ringing into the ultrasonic frequencies above 20khz, again with varying degrees of success. This ringing will still be detectable by an impulse response, but these designers claim that the ringing is ultrasonic and inaudible to the human ear.

Another option is silk fabric, which does have significant internal damping but does not have as high a stiffness/mass ratio as metals do. An impulse response curve of properly designed silk tweeter will usually show no ringing.

Qualitatively, a metal dome tweeter will sound very detailed (while critics of metal domes say they usually suffer from being bright.) Silk domes, on the other hand, are said to have more of a "smooth" sound.

 

[speakerman39]

It has been said many times that the 170's are just as good, if not better, than the Paradigm Studio 20 v.3's. To be honest, I have never heard the 170's, but if this is true they are a tremendous bargain. For those that have had the chance to hear them both it appears the 20's do have better bass extension and are a bit more articulate in the upper midbass region. At least, this is what I have concluded given my own personal research into that claim. The way I see it, if the 170's are even 75% as good as the 20's given their respective price points, then the 170's would have to be one of the true GIANT killers we all read about. My vote is to go for it. Hope this helps and good luck with your decision.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[kazza2ud]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Yeah if I thought I would be getting a subwoofer sometime soon, I would just go with the Ascends for sure. But since I'll probably be living in an apartment for a while, and probably won't have the luxury of cranking a sub, I'm leaning towards the X-sls encore tower, because it supposedly has better bass. Obviously it'd be nice to have the clarity of the Ascends, but I guess I need to compromise somewhere.

It'd be nice if there was a review of the X-sls Encore somewhere.. I really can't find one..

 

[kazza2ud]

X-sls Encore mystery

LOL I tried again to find a review of the X-sls Encore and I got to about page 5 of google then it all turned french because of "encore"

I can't believe it's so hard to find.

 

[mazersteven]

I have only heard the x-mtm towers, and was impressed by their sound quality for a budget tower. From what I've read port plugging will help with the bass.

http://av123.com/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,245/category_id,16/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,37/

 

[kazza2ud]

Sorry hope I'm not post spamming but the conclusion of my previous post left me with this dilemma. I may eventually just order both and see what I like, but my hands are tied for a month so I'd still like to see what you guys think.

I'm considering the CBM-170SE vs the Encore X-SLS tower, since they're both around 300 a pair. At the present I don't have a sub and living in an apartment would make it difficult to enjoy a sub anyway. I mainly need good volume at around average levels of listening, I probably won't be cranking it up or needing to fill a large space.

As a side question, does anyone know if the encore towers actually sound better than their bookshelf-size counterparts? I read somewhere the larger cabinet gives more low end, is that true?

 

[kazza2ud]

port plugging the Ascends? Anyone ever try that?

 

[Matt85]

I've not heard AV123, but I have Ascend CBM 170SEs and I think that they are fantastic speakers.

 

[kazza2ud]

are you running them with a sub? I heard the encores have better bass. Maybe I'll just get the 170s and pair them with a sub eventually, though I'd have to run it low if I'm still in an apartment. I was also liking how the encore towers didn't need a stand. I don't know I think I've researched all I can. I need a break. Thanks for replies everyone.

 

[mike c]

i have merged your threads kazza.

please do not start a new thread on the same topic: which is the speakers you are deciding on.