Ascend Sierra vs NHT Classic vs Polk Lsim

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ichigo

Full Audioholic
I'm looking to build a 5.1 setup. I had a 5.1 Dynaudio Confidence setup earlier but I decided to downsize and now I need a new system, on a $4k-5k budget.

My short-list right now is (in no particular order):

1) Ascend Sierra Towers, Sierra Horizon, Sierra-1 rears

2) NHT Classic Four or C4 series, Three C Center, and Classic Three rears

3) Polk Lsim 707, 704C and 703s

Now my preference is a system that revolves around a 3-way center channel. I'm kind of leaning towards the NHTs now since the center is quite slim and can fit into an AV cabinet. I've owned the Classic and Sierra speakers before (at different times) and my recollection is the NHT's are a brighter speaker and might do better for home theater dialogue, but I'm not sure how good a speaker the Sierra Horizon is (and whether the extra heft is worth it). If I go with the Sierras, I'm not entirely sure if I want the RAAL upgrade. I've had the RAAL Sierras before and I didn't find them that engaging compared to other high end tweeters tweeters I've owned (Esotar2 and Revel beryllium), and honestly thought the stock NRT tweeter had a more pleasing sound signature.

Polks LsiMs look great but I've heard Q&A issues with drivers just dying out of the blue so I'm a little leery.
Any other suggestions are welcome. My primary use is home theater. Will be paired with a pair of JL F110 subwoofers. My current receiver is a venerable Yamaha RX-Z11 from 2009, which should have no problems driving any of these speakers to ear splitting levels, as I've driven even harder speakers prior.
 
KenM10759

KenM10759

Audioholic Samurai
Coming off Dynaudio Confidence, you could be disappointed. Have you considered any of the new, smaller Dynaudio offerings? All reports I've read is that the are incredible.

Of those choices though, Ascend Sierra all the way.
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
Salk.

mains: SongTowers: $1999
center: SongCenter (with front port option): $845
surrounds: SongSurround I: $895 -or- SongBirds: $1499

Not sure what shipping cost will be. $200? *shrug*

You should have enough left over to upgrade your subwoofage. Consider adding a Power Sound Audio, Hsu, Rythmik, Reaction, some sort of infrasonic-capable sub appropriate for the cubic footage you need to pressurize. The Hsu VTF-15H would be a solid choice shipped for $1042, or in Rosewood for $1192 (possibly a good compliment to these rose red SongTowers). Move your 10" JL subs to the bedroom. :)
 
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I

ichigo

Full Audioholic
Coming off Dynaudio Confidence, you could be disappointed. Have you considered any of the new, smaller Dynaudio offerings? All reports I've read is that the are incredible.

Of those choices though, Ascend Sierra all the way.
Hmm well I've heard a lot of people say Dynaudio's lower end lineups are disappointing for the price.


Salk.

mains: SongTowers: $1999
center: SongCenter (with front port option): $845
surrounds: SongSurround I: $895 -or- SongBirds: $1499

Not sure what shipping cost will be. $200? *shrug*

You should have enough left over to upgrade your subwoofage. Consider adding a Power Sound Audio, Hsu, Rythmik, Reaction, some sort of infrasonic-capable sub appropriate for the cubic footage you need to pressurize. The Hsu VTF-15H would be a solid choice shipped for $1042, or in Rosewood for $1192 (possibly a good compliment to these rose red SongTowers). Move your 10" JL subs to the bedroom. :)
I dunno, I've been trying to avoid MTMs since I'm looking for a home theater setup that does well with dialogue. Even the guy who invented the MTM design (Joseph D'Appolito) would tell you it's not an ideal design compared to a decent 3-way. It's an economical design choice to skimp on the cost and design of crossovers, and trade-off dispersion for a narrower, higher output sweet spot. I'm really looking for a actual 3-way center, an MTM is about the worst design you can have for a center channel unless it's a movie theater designed for 1 person.
 
KenM10759

KenM10759

Audioholic Samurai
Dynaudio Confidence is not their lower end, it's their high end for production (non special order), is very good and is highly rated. Especially true for the newest version.

As for MTM designs, I have KEF R series and even in the center speaker it's terrific. They put a boatload of money into design and testing and the results have been well received by press...and owners of it. It is nothing like you describe! I haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise, so I'm baffled as to how you came to this conclusion.
 
I

ichigo

Full Audioholic
Dynaudio Confidence is not their lower end, it's their high end for production (non special order), is very good and is highly rated. Especially true for the newest version.

As for MTM designs, I have KEF R series and even in the center speaker it's terrific. They put a boatload of money into design and testing and the results have been well received by press...and owners of it. It is nothing like you describe! I haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise, so I'm baffled as to how you came to this conclusion.
Yeah I know the Confidence is not their low end; I still have a pair of C1 MK2s.

I said I was leery of their lower and mid end models--referring to Focus and Xeos--as I've heard they are essentially all using their entry level drivers with better decor and a higher price tag.

As far as how I came to this conclusion, this is based on analysis by Mr. D'appolito himself, inventor of the MTM on the tradeoffs of the design.
 
KenM10759

KenM10759

Audioholic Samurai
And with KEF, making the tweeter and midrange coincidental to each other then working to mitigate the inherent problems associated with it has been VERY successful.

You might go hear those.

I would like to see the comments from Joseph D'Appolito, and the dateline. Much of the R&D done in the design may have been done well after he made some comment about it.

The Dynaudio speakers, particularly their newest active speakers, are getting rave reviews too. You should consider reading less and hearing more.
 
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ichigo

Full Audioholic
Not just reading, I've heard the DM 2/6 and Xeo 3, owned the BM5 briefly, and wasn't impressed with the sound, and I did audition the Focal 110s several years ago and it lost out to the Revel M22 that I ended up going with. From what I've heard on hifi forums the actual drivers are the same in their new lineups, so that's why I wasn't too drawn to the current lines. As far as Kef, I've heard their speakers before at friends homes--the LS50 and X300A, but I haven't had the time (or even know where I would go locally) to audition to their center speaker. I do a combination of reading and listening, but nobody has the time to listen to every speaker unless they are retired, and I am not. Not sure why you are getting so defensive.
 
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KenM10759

KenM10759

Audioholic Samurai
I'm not trying to come across as defensive so much as I'm confused why you have had such good speakers before and now expect to get better results out of less expensive ones. With the exception of Salk and a few others, that's an uncommon feat.

I would be surprised to learn Dynaudio uses the exact same components in Confidence line speakers as they do the Excite and other lower level ones. But it's possible. With the KEF, hearing the LS50 and X300A should give you a good indication of the dispersion of the Uni-Q. The LS50 has a very good version of it and the R200c and R600c center speakers are similar. If you were near me I'd invite you over to hear a 200c.

Did you look HERE to check for dealers?
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
Hmm well I've heard a lot of people say Dynaudio's lower end lineups are disappointing for the price.

I dunno, I've been trying to avoid MTMs since I'm looking for a home theater setup that does well with dialogue. Even the guy who invented the MTM design (Joseph D'Appolito) would tell you it's not an ideal design compared to a decent 3-way. It's an economical design choice to skimp on the cost and design of crossovers, and trade-off dispersion for a narrower, higher output sweet spot. I'm really looking for a actual 3-way center, an MTM is about the worst design you can have for a center channel unless it's a movie theater designed for 1 person.
Well, the SongTowers are -3dB at around 15kHz at 60 degrees off-axis. They're MTM, albeit vertical. Since the SongCenter is voiced to match, I suspect it'll perform in a reasonably similar manner, just with BSC implemented for horizontal orientation. @Dennis Murphy did you design the crossover for the SongCenter as well?

In any case, I'm struggling to understand what you mean by "sweet spot" in the context of a center channel. There's no 3D sound stage. There's just mono, anchored to the display. It doesn't matter where you sit in your room, the sound is still coming from the display. And, please forgive me for being so blunt, but how can you be so 1% about your center channel while at the same time be satisfied with 10" subs in your HT? Not that JL Audio 10's are necessarily bad, but neither are they ideal.

I'm sure all this is a moot point anyway. The fervor of your conviction not to enjoy the Song series based on its horizontal MTM center channel is obviously strong. Even if they sounded like choirs of angels, you still wouldn't enjoy them.

Maybe 4x JBL Studio 590 (on a steal of a sale at the moment) + 3-way LC1 or 4-way LC2 center? Perhaps someone else can offer some other alternatives?
 
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ichigo

Full Audioholic
I'm not trying to come across as defensive so much as I'm confused why you have had such good speakers before and now expect to get better results out of less expensive ones. With the exception of Salk and a few others, that's an uncommon feat.

I would be surprised to learn Dynaudio uses the exact same components in Confidence line speakers as they do the Excite and other lower level ones. But it's possible. With the KEF, hearing the LS50 and X300A should give you a good indication of the dispersion of the Uni-Q. The LS50 has a very good version of it and the R200c and R600c center speakers are similar. If you were near me I'd invite you over to hear a 200c.

Did you look HERE to check for dealers?
No, I never stated I wanted speakers that performed better than Dynaudio Confidence for 4-5k. That's purely your imagination. I stated I'm looking for a system that excels in vocals in home theater, and that's why I prefaced by saying I'm looking for a system with a good 3-way center channel.

No, Dynaudio does not use the same components in the Confidence line as they do in the Excite. Their Confidence line drivers such as the Esotar2 are exclusive to the Confidence line. The Excite is their entry level lineup along with the Emit. The woofers in the Excite lineup are actually one tier below the active Dynaudio BM5 series, which I didn't consider a great speaker, which is why I'm not looking forward to the Excite lineup. I'm not sure why you would think Dynaudio would use the same drivers in the Confidence line as they would in the Excite.

All the dealers near me are special order warehouses, not show rooms. I would prefer a floorstander for fronts. I did entertain the thought of 5 LS50s but one issue is lack bass response in these speakers and I tend to actually run without a sub most of the time since I'm generally just watching sports during the week. I'd only turn on the sub during the weekends, and a high crossover will cause the subwoofer to be localized so I'm really looking for a speaker ideally that's flat to around 40Hz.
 
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ichigo

Full Audioholic
Well, the SongTowers are -3dB at around 15kHz at 60 degrees off-axis. They're MTM, albeit vertical. Since the SongCenter is voiced to match, I suspect it'll perform in a reasonably similar manner, just with BSC implemented for horizontal orientation. @Dennis Murphy did you design the crossover for the SongCenter as well?

In any case, I'm struggling to understand what you mean by "sweet spot" in the context of a center channel. There's no 3D sound stage. There's just mono, anchored to the display. It doesn't matter where you sit in your room, the sound is still coming from the display. And, please forgive me for being so blunt, but how can you be so 1% about your center channel while at the same time be satisfied with 10" subs in your HT?
The reason there's a small sweet spot in MTM center channels is due to destructive interference from to horizontal lobing when the two midwoofer's signals criss crossing each other. Joseph D'Appolito, the inventor of the MTM, stated in the March 2001 issue of Hi Fi Hobby magazine that MTM design is simply not a suited for center channel due to severe lobing issues, and is merely a design made to fit into media center cabinets.

In fact Audioholics articles cover this extensively: https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
The reason there's a small sweet spot in MTM center channels is due to destructive interference from to horizontal lobing when the two midwoofer's signals criss crossing each other. Joseph D'Appolito, the inventor of the MTM, stated in the March 2001 issue of Hi Fi Hobby magazine that MTM design is simply not a suited for center channel due to severe lobing issues, and is merely a design made to fit into media center cabinets.

In fact Audioholics articles cover this extensively: https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs
Ah. Well, given that the rear-ported SongCenter is 18" wide and has two 5" drivers, I'm guessing the woofers are 6 - 7" apart. With a crossover frequency at 2.2kHz, lobing would only affect notes A through C, 4 octaves above middle C. Higher than that, the tweeter is playing full volume. Lower, and the wavelengths are too long to cancel each other, aren't they? I just don't think the calamity you're predicting is even audible with this particular center. Besides, crossover design has come along way since D'Appolito's comments in 2001. I mean, 2001 was when people ran Windows 3.0 on a 25MHz 486 processor, man.

So, how does an MTTM design solve this issue? Is it by crossing over the woofers lower and having a single driver for mids and highs, the lobing effect is moved to lower frequencies?

Yeah, I guess based on this info I'd agree with Ken's first reply, that the Ascend Sierra Tower + Horizon combo would be the best of your original choices and a worthwhile scratcher for your itch. Shame, though. The uncommonly impressive off-axis response of the SongTowers would seem too good to pass up for me if I had your budget. And maybe I'm a marketer's dream, but I'm inclined to believe Jim Salk's assertions about his center channel:

So, how do they sound?
  • The top end is lush and detailed - just what you'd expect from the exceptional Hiquphon QWII
  • The driver dispersion and the slim cabinet combine to offer superb imaging
  • Off-axis response is very good for those seated to the left or right of center.
  • Midrange is detailed and accurate. Voices are rendered with realism and high intelligibility - important in home theater applications.
In short, the SongCenter is a perfect match for SongSeries speakers.
 
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fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
The reason there's a small sweet spot in MTM center channels is due to destructive interference from to horizontal lobing when the two midwoofer's signals criss crossing each other. Joseph D'Appolito, the inventor of the MTM, stated in the March 2001 issue of Hi Fi Hobby magazine that MTM design is simply not a suited for center channel due to severe lobing issues, and is merely a design made to fit into media center cabinets.

In fact Audioholics articles cover this extensively: https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs
Ah. Well, given that the rear-ported SongCenter is 18" wide and has two 5" drivers, I'm guessing the woofers are 6 - 7" apart. With a crossover frequency at 2.2kHz, lobing would only affect notes A through C, 4 octaves above middle C. Higher than that, the tweeter is playing full volume. Lower, and the wavelengths are too long to cancel each other, aren't they? I just don't think the calamity you're predicting is even audible with this particular center. Besides, crossover design has come along way since D'Appolito's comments in 2001. I mean, 2001 was when people ran Windows 3.0 on a 25MHz 486 processor, man.

So, how does an MTTM design solve this issue? Is it by crossing over the woofers lower and having a single driver for mids and highs, the lobing effect is moved to lower frequencies?
I'll also add to what rojo said and most issues associated with the horizontal MTM occur off axis, beyond 30-35 degrees. So with a center that is 6ft away from the main LP (assuming the center and main LP are perpendicular) that puts the spread at about 6ft before you even begin to hit some spots where you could possibly experience some wonkiness. At 35 degrees, the spread becomes about 8ft and by 40 degrees you're spread is about 10ft. Now, most people aren't sitting 6ft from their center, they're further away and the majority of the time the 30 degree spread is more than adequate to hit the most used LP's. For my personally, if I was using an MTM center, I'm ~9ft away so at 30 degrees off axis that would give me about 10ft of coverage.

Finally I'll two last points. First, if you know anything about Dennis Murphy's designs you know he very purposefully designs for smooth off axis response way out past 30 degrees. Second, I've owned a Supercharged Salk Songcenter and experienced zero issues with lobing or weird off axis response. I can't speak for all MTM centers, but if it's designed by DM I wouldn't worry too much, and that's aside from the simple geometry of exactly what kind of coverage 30-40 degrees gets you.
 
KenM10759

KenM10759

Audioholic Samurai
I don't really see the need to worry about the configuration of a speaker so much as appreciate (or not) how it sounds when you're sitting there listening to it.

Another thing is the issue of frequency response and subwoofers. I use my system to watch TV fairly often, and much of what I watch is car oriented, news, DIY and such. There is very little or no bass below the crossover point, set at 60hz or 80hz (I forget what I have set.) So I can leave the settings on surround sound and not worry about earthshaking bass during the 6:00 news. In fact, only some commercial ads will produce minimally deep bass. If it's at all annoying I can walk over and shut off the sub. There's no path worn to it yet.

I sit on a sofa that's probably 10º to 15º off axis. The dialog is perfectly clear, and centered to the screen. I notice zero issues with any soundwaves crashing into each other and causing mayhem. It sounds quite good, actually. I would wonder why KEF, Klipsch, Monitor Audio and the vast majority of others use this configuration and sell many thousands of center speakers if it was too compromising.
 

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