as if COVID wasn't bad enough ............

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Trell

Trell

Audioholic General
Why conflate peaceful protests and looting? Why do the police need presence for peaceful protests dressed in armor and being violent? Clear a path for drumphy again! He's got a bible to show us!
That conflation is typically used by authoritarian regimes to quell peaceful protests, often/usually using deadly force. I think it is also a proxy for a person's view on liberal democracy.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Why conflate peaceful protests and looting? Why do the police need presence for peaceful protests dressed in armor and being violent? Clear a path for drumphy again! He's got a bible to show us!
If looting happens during a protest, how would you avoid combining them in a description of the events?

If the police are dressed for regular patrol duty and violence breaks out, how should they be expected to control the situation?

As I wrote a few days ago, during a nighttime march, a squad car was damaged and entered, with a rifle stolen in the process. I hardly consider breaking the locked mount a 'peaceful' act. But that was at night and apparently, you think the violence will be avoided simply by the Police dressing more casually. That assumes a lot.

The accounts of the most recent police violence, according to what I have seen of the incident at one of the Police stations in Milwaukee, was unnecessary according to the protesters but only started after someone in the crowd started firing a weapon according to the Police chief. It may have been fireworks, but that really doesn't fall under 'good decisions during a protest', either. In other places around the city, Police officers have knelt with protesters and had many calm & what looked like friendly interactions.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Ninja
..... Police officers have knelt with protesters and had many calm & what looked like friendly interactions.
We'll have to see a LOT more of that ^ than this...
...before we will see trust in police improve.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I thought John Oliver, in the video posted earlier, made some very good points on the topic of police violence. I believe the occupation attracts higher proportion of authoritarian personalities than average and there should be better personality screening to weed out such people.
An interesting article. It's a bit more nuanced than the title would have you believe.
I was told, by a cop, that a large number of people who want to become officers either want to save the world or are one bad decision from going to prison. That means someone is letting them slip through undetected, or facilitating their joining the force.

WRT to that article and specifically, "If cops cannot stop killing people, and black people in particular, society needs fewer of them.", we hardly need fewer officers. What we need is to remove the ones who are unnecessarily violent and replace them with someone who doesn't default to killing people. I have recently written that when a department is responsible for an unjustified death during an arrest or in custody, their funding needs to be cut, based on the severity of the officer's actions. Apparently, Trell thinks that's the thinking of my view of liberal democracy.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
We'll have to see a LOT more of that ^ than this...
...before we will see trust in police improve.
That's not the only one. A kneeling man was shot & killed by Police in Washington state.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Has anyone heard or read of any local government or police department, or anyone else, who has offered any ideas about how to decrease or stop deaths at the hands of the Police (knowing that it will probably never actually stop)?
I think there are many people who know what is needed. The problem is the "bosses" have to acknowledge that the problem has to be addressed at their level before systemic changes can happen!
It is soooo much easier to blame that "one rouge cop".

I think it will take a complete review and rewriting of policy to properly address the issue, but one thing that I noticed was Chauvin is not wearing a body cam. I think most would agree this is likely not coincidence. So a policy to monitor which officers consistently avoid their cams would be a reasonable thing. But that is one small piece of a big puzzle!
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Ninja
I was told, by a cop, that a large number of people who want to become officers either want to save the world or are one bad decision from going to prison. That means someone is letting them slip through undetected, or facilitating their joining the force.

WRT to that article and specifically, "If cops cannot stop killing people, and black people in particular, society needs fewer of them.", we hardly need fewer officers. What we need is to remove the ones who are unnecessarily violent and replace them with someone who doesn't default to killing people. I have recently written that when a department is responsible for an unjustified death during an arrest or in custody, their funding needs to be cut, based on the severity of the officer's actions. Apparently, Trell thinks that's the thinking of my view of liberal democracy.
Removing the "bad apples" doesn't change social conditions that lead to more cop/civilian interactions. Just look at incarceration rates alone: (per 100,000 population) Germany - 77, Austria - 98, Italy - 101, Canada - 107, France - 105, Australia - 140, Mexico - 163......USA - 655. We all know that prisons are breeding grounds for criminal behaviour. There have been arguments that we put too many people in prison in Canada - especially aboriginal and black people. But, the American rate is 6 times higher!
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Samurai
If looting happens during a protest, how would you avoid combining them in a description of the events?

If the police are dressed for regular patrol duty and violence breaks out, how should they be expected to control the situation?

As I wrote a few days ago, during a nighttime march, a squad car was damaged and entered, with a rifle stolen in the process. I hardly consider breaking the locked mount a 'peaceful' act. But that was at night and apparently, you think the violence will be avoided simply by the Police dressing more casually. That assumes a lot.

The accounts of the most recent police violence, according to what I have seen of the incident at one of the Police stations in Milwaukee, was unnecessary according to the protesters but only started after someone in the crowd started firing a weapon according to the Police chief. It may have been fireworks, but that really doesn't fall under 'good decisions during a protest', either. In other places around the city, Police officers have knelt with protesters and had many calm & what looked like friendly interactions.
Here's the thing, they call it Looting, when a Mad mob breaks into any business. you or I or anyone else breaks into a Business, home or whatever its called Simple burglary of a Inhabited dwelling or Simple burglary of uninhabited dwelling. One can be Brought up on charges of 6 months up to 3 years the other Carries sentence of minimum two years to 12 years. And that's for 1st time Offenders with a clean record.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
If looting happens during a protest, how would you avoid combining them in a description of the events?

If the police are dressed for regular patrol duty and violence breaks out, how should they be expected to control the situation?

As I wrote a few days ago, during a nighttime march, a squad car was damaged and entered, with a rifle stolen in the process. I hardly consider breaking the locked mount a 'peaceful' act. But that was at night and apparently, you think the violence will be avoided simply by the Police dressing more casually. That assumes a lot.

The accounts of the most recent police violence, according to what I have seen of the incident at one of the Police stations in Milwaukee, was unnecessary according to the protesters but only started after someone in the crowd started firing a weapon according to the Police chief. It may have been fireworks, but that really doesn't fall under 'good decisions during a protest', either. In other places around the city, Police officers have knelt with protesters and had many calm & what looked like friendly interactions.
Yet most of the protests have been peaceful and without issue. Conflating them isn't necessary or helpful. Dressing appropriately might be a good start, though. We don't need more of drumphy's little photo op clearing of the way with the tear gas that wasn't and projectiles that weren't (according to his press release later) so he could waddle over to the church and hold a bible upside down to make a stupid little music video was a poor example of the use of military force. The looting is horrible no doubt. but when you systemically continue with racism bad things happen....
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic General
Now we're knocking down a 75 year old peaceful protester to the ground in Buffalo, blood coming out of one ear, and after the police chief suspends the 2 cops involved, 57 other cops resigned in protest? Good riddance.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/05/buffalo-police-officers-suspended-for-pushing-75-year-old-to-ground-during-protests
The https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/05/buffalo-officers-suspended-shoving-man/ has a disturbing comment perhaps showing part of the problem and that more than 57 cops should be kicked out. Since when did it again become a defence that following orders gives some kind of immunity?

"“Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders,[bold added]” Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans told WGRZ. "​
 
Old Onkyo

Old Onkyo

Senior Audioholic
His base is pretty unshakeable. They are going to show up in november, so saying he's doing all this to placate them is a bit of an over reach. He's actually showed much more restraint in regards to the protests than I would like. When the looting starts the shooting should start, but that is my opinion. That fire needs to be put out before it spreads much further.

I'm not sure what the cdc's guideline is, but I strongly disagree that trump doesn't care how many people die.
If it didn't matter to him he wouldn't have enacted a travel ban to china or europe.

There is no doubt that he needs the virus thing behind him but these riots etc are not working in his favor. I'd say he wants them over saap. Btw isn't it odd that the governors etc that wanted everyone to stay home are now ok with protesting and rioting in the streets?

My belief is that trump isn't the devil the left will have you believe, but he is also not the saint some on the right will tell you that he is.
He is the stupidest SOB to ever hold the office.
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Samurai
His base is pretty unshakeable. They are going to show up in november, so saying he's doing all this to placate them is a bit of an over reach. He's actually showed much more restraint in regards to the protests than I would like. When the looting starts the shooting should start, but that is my opinion. That fire needs to be put out before it spreads much further.

I'm not sure what the cdc's guideline is, but I strongly disagree that trump doesn't care how many people die.
If it didn't matter to him he wouldn't have enacted a travel ban to china or europe.

There is no doubt that he needs the virus thing behind him but these riots etc are not working in his favor. I'd say he wants them over saap. Btw isn't it odd that the governors etc that wanted everyone to stay home are now ok with protesting and rioting in the streets?

My belief is that trump isn't the devil the left will have you believe, but he is also not the saint some on the right will tell you that he is.
I like your last Paragraph pretty much hit the nail on the head.
 
kystorm

kystorm

Audioholic
I like your last Paragraph pretty much hit the nail on the head.
I have issues with djt, but it's hard to say that he was doin a bad job until china screwed the world over.
I have my share of issues with him, but I can also recognize when he does things right. When you learn to keep your emotions in check you can better see what's goin on.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Yet most of the protests have been peaceful and without issue. Conflating them isn't necessary or helpful. Dressing appropriately might be a good start, though. We don't need more of drumphy's little photo op clearing of the way with the tear gas that wasn't and projectiles that weren't (according to his press release later) so he could waddle over to the church and hold a bible upside down to make a stupid little music video was a poor example of the use of military force. The looting is horrible no doubt. but when you systemically continue with racism bad things happen....
Why do you include Trump in this? I was referring to Milwaukee because that's where I am and the local police scanner is what I have been listening to. I have posted that most of the daytime AND nighttime protesting have been peaceful, but not all. That's not conflating anything- it's stating fact. The car that was burned at the dealership near my house was an isolated incident- the protesting wasn't happening in my area, they tried to enter the mall two miles from here and were turned back so they left, fortunately.

The goal, here and in most places, isn't to destroy the city or surrounding areas, it's to raise attention although I don't know why this would be necessary here- Milwaukee has been filled with strife for most of my 60+ years and anyone who was born & raised here should know it well. Newcomers should know it, too- we have had several deaths at the hands of the Police in the last twenty years and the city has paid millions in settlements. It has been in the news for decades.

The problem here is that the racism hasn't been a problem of the general population acting badly toward minorities in overt ways- it has been a problem in the way city government continues to tear down housing in the inner city and not rebuild for those people. They constantly allow new apartment and condo construction in places that are easy to see from the freeway and waterways, but the blighted areas are ignored, even though a stretch of this blight is on both sides of the freeway, heading toward the Northern suburbs. It stops as soon as the suburbs start, even though these same suburbs have low income housing. The city's public school system has a history of terrible performance and they continue to throw buckets of money on that dumpster fire in their supposed attempt to make improvements. Does $1.4 Billion for a school system that has 68K students sound reasonable?

City governments don't really care as much about the poor as they care about their image, A+ credit rating, Federal funds and campaigns that trumpet their record for providing "a place where families can live and be happy".....where they can afford to own a nice home. The rest are left with a whole lot of not much.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Here's the thing, they call it Looting, when a Mad mob breaks into any business. you or I or anyone else breaks into a Business, home or whatever its called Simple burglary of a Inhabited dwelling or Simple burglary of uninhabited dwelling. One can be Brought up on charges of 6 months up to 3 years the other Carries sentence of minimum two years to 12 years. And that's for 1st time Offenders with a clean record.
But if the insurance company calls it 'civil unrest' or something similar, they often won't pay for the damage. It's shown in the exclusions page(s), if it's mentioned and knowing the insurance industry, we all know they want to find every possible way to keep the money in their own grubby hands.
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Samurai
I have issues with djt, but it's hard to say that he was doin a bad job until china screwed the world over.
I have my share of issues with him, but I can also recognize when he does things right. When you learn to keep your emotions in check you can better see what's goin on.
Todate, my take on the Current administration isn't that good. Outside of Firing people left and right.
With a Country as powerful as Ours is. Which other Country is going to Really Challenge the United States. Sure IRAN, North Korea, China, Russia and a few of those in the Middle East. The Game of Thrones:) Lil pun there, Is a long road to Empire
Bloody Stupid waste. That Wall :) more pun, isn't going to stop anything at our Southern border. Them Drug cartels and illegal immigrants will just dig a Deeper Tunnel or fly over like they been doing for Decades. What has the Current administration really accomplished?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Removing the "bad apples" doesn't change social conditions that lead to more cop/civilian interactions. Just look at incarceration rates alone: (per 100,000 population) Germany - 77, Austria - 98, Italy - 101, Canada - 107, France - 105, Australia - 140, Mexico - 163......USA - 655. We all know that prisons are breeding grounds for criminal behaviour. There have been arguments that we put too many people in prison in Canada - especially aboriginal and black people. But, the American rate is 6 times higher!
Removing the bad apples will help the Police and inner city get along better- we have seen many instances where Police & protesters have talked, hugged and knelt peacefully. After murders in MKE, officers are right there with the families and friends, grieving.

In Los Angeles, New York City and Chicago together, the population is about 1/3 of Canada's entire country. Those three cities have more poor than all of Canada and in higher density. You can't compare the people in each country because they're just too different in their actions, way of thinking and extent of what they have dealt with in their lives. Lack of rehabilitation in prisons is a two way street- if someone doesn't want to do it, they won't. Another problem is that criminals who gain a reputation in prison have more 'street cred' than those who simply put in their time and get out. If you haven't talked to someone who was in prison, do so- it will be very enlightening. You can read about it all you want, but seeing them as they describe being raped and passed around as someone's 'punk' is something that just doesn't jump off of the pages.
 
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