Argh-do I need an amp?

[PENG]

So the calculator shows a max output of 111dB. I’m about 9 feet away from where my components are located, not sure if I’d hear the fans in those Monoprice amps from that distance or not. Again, I’m not trying to blast anyone away, but want to hear movies at reference volume without feeling like I’m pushing the receiver to its limit - or is that really a problem?

If you are getting 111 dB according to the calculator, then you already have 9 dB of headroom. The 105 dB ref is for peaks, so the average would be in the ball park of 85 dB and that means your SR6012 would be putting out 1/100 of its rated power, or a little over one (1) watt average or two watts with both channel running. The SR6012 will run warm even idling so for extra longevity, place a quiet fan on top and set to the lowest speed.

No you listen to anywhere near reference level there is no way you can hear the fan from 9 ft. Adding an external is never bad, but a cheap amp like those Monoprice may degrade the sound quality, though likely not audible.

 

[PENG]

LOL aside from power and a slightly better snr? May not be all that impressive let alone audible.

Agreed, even the 1002's SN really is good enough, better than any phono cartidges even if referred to 1 watt output level.

 

[highfigh]

Just when I thought I was done...

So my Maranth SR6012 seems to be struggling to drive my 5.1.4 system. This is all Aperion bookshelves and in-ceiling surrounds which ive never found to be hard to drive in the past, but this is the first time I’ve added the extra Atmos speakers. It can get to a decent volume but I have to turn the volume almost to max to get there. Do I need to add an external amp for the fronts? If so, what does anyone suggest? I’m not loving the idea of spending any more $$ right now so budget sensitivity would be helpful.

An alternative I’ve considered is taking my existing Denon X4100 and adding a cheap 2-channel amp just to drive the extra 2 Atmos speakers but not sure if that would do much. The Denon is more powerful, but only by 30w/channel, but I don’t know if the issue is the receiver power itself or if im asking the Marantz to just drive too many speakers.

Go into the menu and look at the input level settings.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just when I thought I was done...

So my Maranth SR6012 seems to be struggling to drive my 5.1.4 system. This is all Aperion bookshelves and in-ceiling surrounds which ive never found to be hard to drive in the past, but this is the first time I’ve added the extra Atmos speakers. It can get to a decent volume but I have to turn the volume almost to max to get there. Do I need to add an external amp for the fronts? If so, what does anyone suggest? I’m not loving the idea of spending any more $$ right now so budget sensitivity would be helpful.

An alternative I’ve considered is taking my existing Denon X4100 and adding a cheap 2-channel amp just to drive the extra 2 Atmos speakers but not sure if that would do much. The Denon is more powerful, but only by 30w/channel, but I don’t know if the issue is the receiver power itself or if im asking the Marantz to just drive too many speakers.

Unless you are using Multi-Channel Stereo mode, you probably don't need to use external amps, especially not for Surround and Atmos ceiling speakers (which are usually small speakers rated for 10 W - 100 Watts of power).

If the higher master volume knob setting is disconcerting to you (I know you're losing sleep ), you can increase all the Speaker Channel Levels manually by +3dB or +6dB. For example, if your Front Left Speaker is set to 0.0 before, increase it to +3.0 or +6.0. Now your master volume will not have to be set that high.

You do need to put 2 or 3 fans atop your AVR to pull heat out and keep the AVR operating cooler like this:

 

[TLS Guy]

Was looking at the A-5175 amp from Emotiva. It’s 175wpc and is a 5-channel amp for $799 Again, that’s a boost but not a huge one from the receiver, but if I use it to drive the front 3 channels, it would take some of the load off the receiver as well. Is that my best all-around option?

See highfi's post. You do not have a power problem. For 100% sure your problem is a gain structure problem and not lack of power. So we need to help you sort out your gain structure problem.

 

[PENG]

Go into the menu and look at the input level settings.

I am interested in seeing the settings too. Especially if he did run Audyssey and didn't following instructions to the letter..

 

[lovinthehd]

It can get to a decent volume but I have to turn the volume almost to max to get there.

What does this mean? You calibrated and what volume reading does this refer to? What are you comparing it to?

 

[tmurnin]

Unless you are using Multi-Channel Stereo mode, you probably don't need to use external amps, especially not for Surround and Atmos ceiling speakers (which are usually small speakers rated for 10 W - 100 Watts of power).

If the higher master volume knob setting is disconcerting to you (I know you're losing sleep ),you can increase all the Speaker Channel Levels manually by +3dB or +6dB. For example, if your Front Left Speaker is set to 0.0 before, increase it to +3.0 or +6.0. Now your master volume will not have to be set that high.

You do need to put 2 or 3 fans atop your AVR to pull heat out and keep the AVR operating cooler like this:

Thanks. I have a 3-fan ACInfinity unit sitting on top of the Marantz now, so I think that should take care of any cooling issues, but let me know if you don’t think that’s sufficient (the AVR is in a cabinet with glass front door but open back).

It sounds like maybe I just need to re-run Audyssey, and then do some manual tweaking for speaker levels and “get over” the higher volume setting? Very happy not to spend more money if I don’t

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks. I have a 3-fan ACInfinity unit sitting on top of the Marantz now, so I think that should take care of any cooling issues, but let me know if you don’t think that’s sufficient (the AVR is in a cabinet with glass front door but open back).

It sounds like maybe I just need to re-run Audyssey, and then do some manual tweaking for speaker levels and “get over” the higher volume setting? Very happy not to spend more money if I don’t

I can bet it is Audyssey. That dreadful program does massive violence to sensible gain structure and up sets signal to noise form optimal.

Do this. Copy the Audyssey level sets. Noe set your right and left mains to zero db manually. Now set the the other speakers to the db above or below the level of the mains, that they were before.

Now don't use Dynamic Eq or any of that nonsense, as it will not be calibrated now. But that is also all garbage anyway. I bet you will be happy after that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks. I have a 3-fan ACInfinity unit sitting on top of the Marantz now, so I think that should take care of any cooling issues, but let me know if you don’t think that’s sufficient (the AVR is in a cabinet with glass front door but open back).

It sounds like maybe I just need to re-run Audyssey, and then do some manual tweaking for speaker levels and “get over” the higher volume setting? Very happy not to spend more money if I don’t

Make sure the 3 fans are blowing the air UPWARD, not downward. But 3 x 120mm fans are enough.

Also compare Audyssey vs Flat vs Bypass and see which one actually sounds best to you. Some of us don't think any room EQ sound better than Bypass/Through mode.

I think with all systems, the salient thing is manual adjustments of the levels and settings - speaker and especially subwoofer levels.

Don't be shy to boost the subwoofer levels to your preference. The level that makes the bass sound GREAT to you is the correct level. Of course, you don't want too little or too much (bloated) bass.

If the Center dialogue is too low (a lot of contents suffer from low dialogue level),boost the Center Speaker Level. Don't be afraid if you have to boost the Center Speaker level by 1, 2, 3dB, or more. It's not your fault if some of these people can't mix the dialogue levels correctly. If they did it correctly, then you shouldn't have to boost the Center Dialogue levels. But if they screw up, then you have to fix it yourself.

Your system needs to sound great to YOU, not anybody else.

 

[TechHDS]

You may not need a added amp, but can never have to much power. But with that said, TLS Guy, PENG, ADTG are bring some great advice.


Mike

 

[lovinthehd]

Still curious just what this volume setting actually is.

 

[tmurnin]

I haven’t measured the reading with an SPL, so I don’t know the actual sound level, but for it to play at a voulume where I feel like I’m listening to a near-reference theater level (I’m not really a blast the stereo kind of guy), I’m having to get the Marantz 3/4 of the way to max volume. When I was using the Denon x4100 with a 5.1 channel system, I could get there below 1/2 way easily.

 

[lovinthehd]

I haven’t measured the reading with an SPL, so I don’t know the actual sound level, but for it to play at a voulume where I feel like I’m listening to a near-reference theater level (I’m not really a blast the stereo kind of guy), I’m having to get the Marantz 3/4 of the way to max volume. When I was using the Denon x4100 with a 5.1 channel system, I could get there below 1/2 way easily.

Doesn't make a lot of sense that they'd be that different since they should both use the same scale if you want (absolute or relative) and calibrated should be same or very close to each other in reading....

 

[tmurnin]

Doesn't make a lot of sense that they'd be that different since they should both use the same scale if you want (absolute or relative) and calibrated should be same or very close to each other in reading....

Agree. The only difference is that I’m now driving 9 speakers with the Marantz instead of 5 with the Denon, but the additional 4 are just the Atmos height channels, which shouldn’t be hard to drive.

 

[lovinthehd]

Agree. The only difference is that I’m now driving 9 speakers with the Marantz instead of 5 with the Denon, but the additional 4 are just the Atmos height channels, which shouldn’t be hard to drive.

Number of speakers aside, each at -20 dB volume they sound very different in overall level? Hopefully you can quantify that with your spl meter....

 

[PENG]

I haven’t measured the reading with an SPL, so I don’t know the actual sound level, but for it to play at a voulume where I feel like I’m listening to a near-reference theater level (I’m not really a blast the stereo kind of guy),I’m having to get the Marantz 3/4 of the way to max volume. When I was using the Denon x4100 with a 5.1 channel system, I could get there below 1/2 way easily.

Can you please take a screen shot (see below for example) of the post Audyssey level settings so we all can see what's going on?

Too see this screen, press setup, Speakers, Audyssey Setup, Check Results, Levels (may not be exactly)

 

[tmurnin]

Sorry for the late reply. It won't let me upload the photo because it says it's too large, but these are the current settings before I've re-run Audyssey. Wanted your thoughts on it before I re-do all that:
Front L +0.5db
Front R -1.0db
Center -1.0db
Subwoofer1 -6.0db
Surround L +1.5db
Surround R + 1.5db
Top Front L -3.5db
Top Front R -3.5db
Top Rear L -4.0db
Top Rear R -4.5db

 

[PENG]

Sorry for the late reply. It won't let me upload the photo because it says it's too large, but these are the current settings before I've re-run Audyssey. Wanted your thoughts on it before I re-do all that:
Front L +0.5db
Front R -1.0db
Center -1.0db
Subwoofer1 -6.0db
Surround L +1.5db
Surround R + 1.5db
Top Front L -3.5db
Top Front R -3.5db
Top Rear L -4.0db
Top Rear R -4.5db

Those numbers look quite typical for a medium size room with the kind of speakers you have. You mentioned you sit 9 ft away from the components, you should be able to hit reference level (cinema loud) with volume at 0 to +3 on the relative scale, or 80 to 83 in the absolute scale.

Have you tried measuring the spl from your main seat at volume 80 (or 0 if using relative scale) using the AVRs test tone?

Also, make sure you have the settings below:

Dynamic volume to "OFF"
Dynamic EQ to "On"
Dynamic compression to "Off" (to play safe also set loudness management to "Off".
All speakers to "Small".
Crossovers to 80 Hz, for all speakers for now.
Subwoofer level: Add 2 to 3 dB, i.e. increase from -6 to -4 to -3.