Arendal Sound?

[Ricardojoa]

You are correct. There are major problems in the design of that tweeter.

I'm certain the tweeter they selected is the Audax 1" (28mm) tweeter.

They only have two Titanium domes to choose from and it is not the Vifa for sure.

Now this tweeter has an Fs of 1137 Hz. So at a crossover of 1600 Hz this tweeter will be driven down though Fs even with fourth order electric crossover.

Now you can only drive a tweeter down though Fs if it is low Qts. However this tweeter is high Qts. It is 0.76!

This graph proves the point showing the impedance rise at Fs and the peak is broad based high Q.

That speaker has to sound awful to anyone with a trained ear.

There are always some in the crowd who will claim the most dreadful speakers sound great.

However that Arendal outfit are neophytes. They do not know even the most basic rules of speaker design. Unfortunately fat too many think they can produce speakers and not know the most basic rules of the craft. Here is another to add to the list.

The arendal uses soft dome tweeter, not hard dome titanium.
And is 28mm not 1"(25.4mm), so they cant be the audax you implied.

 

[TLS Guy]

The arendal uses soft dome tweeter, not hard dome titanium.
And is 28mm not 1"(25.4mm), so they cant be the audax you implied.

Sorry! My mistake. I should have checked Warrior's pot more carefully.

 

[haraldo]

To clear out a things about this tweeter so we can stop this crazy guesswork going around here.

Looking at the Norwegian site from lsound.no it's clearly stated that none of the drivers in the subs or any speaker is off the shelf. The specific tweeter in question is a top of the line 28 mm soft dome designed by Dr. Kurt Müller from Germany. Kurt Müller is not delivering off-the-shelf products, but has some quite respectable guys on his client list... Elac, Seas, Scan Speak, Peerless, Dynaudio, Thiel & Partner, Canton ... and also Arendal sound. As I understand, the waveguide is also custom fit for this specific application ... So the dome and the waveguide is specifically selected to suit this particular application ...

The subs are quite attractively priced here, the top of the line 1723 with dual 13.8 subs in a back-to-back config, hi-gloss finisk is $2060.- compared to the SVS PB13-Ultra which is $2300 ...

The top-of-the line $2900.- floorstanding speakers are permanently sold out, which means... they are probably pretty darn popular ...

I live just a few hours driving away, so I should probably check out ... make some pics ... and more

 

[TheWarrior]

To clear out a things about this tweeter so we can stop this crazy guesswork going around here.

Looking at the Norwegian site from lsound.no it's clearly stated that none of the drivers in the subs or any speaker is off the shelf. The specific tweeter in question is a top of the line 28 mm soft dome designed by Dr. Kurt Müller from Germany. Kurt Müller is not delivering off-the-shelf products, but has some quite respectable guys on his client list... Elac, Seas, Scan Speak, Peerless, Dynaudio, Thiel & Partner, Canton ... and also Arendal sound. As I understand, the waveguide is also custom fit for this specific application ... So the dome and the waveguide is specifically selected to suit this particular application ...

The subs are quite attractively priced here, the top of the line 1723 with dual 13.8 subs in a back-to-back config, hi-gloss finisk is $2060.- compared to the SVS PB13-Ultra which is $2300 ...

The top-of-the line $2900.- floorstanding speakers are permanently sold out, which means... they are probably pretty darn popular ...

I live just a few hours driving away, so I should probably check out ... make some pics ... and more

Physics will argue with the Doctor and his team.

I suspect the Doctor was commissioned to develop a tweeter following a list of Marketing Department guidelines to separate themselves within the market. For the given compromises inherent in asking a small dome diaphragm to operate through that many octaves, I am sure the tweeter is 'remarkable' in that it functions with out damaging itself, or the ears of the listener. But I will remain skeptical until I can hear a pair in my room!

What will music/movies would you test with? Do you have the option to try a pair at home?

 

[haraldo]

Physics will argue with the Doctor and his team.

I suspect the Doctor was commissioned to develop a tweeter following a list of Marketing Department guidelines to separate themselves within the market.

There are others using waveguides and very low x-over points with great results, so what's the problem? Amphion does that on all their speakers and they're so succesfull in that they're favorites for quite a few studios. I don't think Amphion does that for marketing reasons, do you?

It will at least be a few months till I can go visit them....

Will update with what music I use.....

 

[TheWarrior]

There are others using waveguides and very low x-over points with great results, so what's the problem? Amphion does that on all their speakers and they're so succesfull in that they're favorites for quite a few studios. I don't think Amphion does that for marketing reasons, do you?

It will at least be a few months till I can go visit them....

Will update with what music I use.....

Just because they exist, does not mean they should! Thats too broad of a range for a tweeter. And then still expecting the midrange drivers to handle bass frequencies... there is no logic in that design. So I assume it was Marketing!

 

[haraldo]

Just because they exist, does not mean they should! Thats too broad of a range for a tweeter. And then still expecting the midrange drivers to handle bass frequencies... there is no logic in that design. So I assume it was Marketing!

But it's still "guesswork" from your side?

 

[theJman]

But it's still "guesswork" from your side?

It's all speculation and conjecture until your ears get a chance to hear them. I'm not a naysayer just because someone hasn't done it before. After all, doesn't everything need to be invented at some point? The radial tire only existed on paper for decades, that is until Michelin built production models. At the time people were aghast, swearing the thing would never work. Fast forward to today... when was the last time anyone owned a vehicle that didn't have radials? Yup, they went from oddity to curiosity to begrudgingly accepted to the standard bearer.

Maybe the same thing happens with this tweeter design, maybe not, but either way until they hit the market in mass and people can get their hands on them it's hard to see why all the debate. It's just theory and supposition at this point.

 

[haraldo]

I really don't see this as a new thing... there's quite a few speakers with these sort of waveguides and... well, I don't recall anyone listening to them stating or writing that it doesn't work...

Will be interesting to check them out

 

[TheWarrior]

But it's still "guesswork" from your side?

Do I have a degree in physics? No!

But it's 2016, and we have a very good understanding of sound reproduction. Crossing over a tweeter extra low to allow mid range drivers (or unusual woofers) to even attempt reproducing mid to low bass frequencies is nothing but a compromise in performance, for the sake of budget.

My focus has been entirely on the low crossover point of that tweeter. I do not question waveguides universally. Merely when one is shaped in this way, the best out come, whatever it does, is that it is inaudible!

Don't know what other speakers you've heard, but I think taking advantage of domestic pricing on SEAS drivers will yield the best possible experience! And I'd hate for you to drive several hours to hear those speakers!

 

[haraldo]

Do I have a degree in physics? No!

But it's 2016, and we have a very good understanding of sound reproduction. Crossing over a tweeter extra low to allow mid range drivers (or unusual woofers) to even attempt reproducing mid to low bass frequencies is nothing but a compromise in performance, for the sake of budget.

My focus has been entirely on the low crossover point of that tweeter. I do not question waveguides universally. Merely when one is shaped in this way, the best out come, whatever it does, is that it is inaudible!

Don't know what other speakers you've heard, but I think taking advantage of domestic pricing on SEAS drivers will yield the best possible experience! And I'd hate for you to drive several hours to hear those speakers!

I spent a few years auditioning probably every single speaker available on the market around here, something like a 4 year project, and I ended up thinking it was maybe two or three speakers that I really liked... and I ended up with a NO-GO decision... I don't want get down to the technicalities even though I'm a very techno-geek in every way... it's one simple equation: Do I enjoy the music or not?

When it came down to it... there were some really famous well renowned speakers that are being hailed in the press as awesome awesome awesome that I really find unlistenable... One of them was a now discontinued product from Mårten design https://www.marten.se/ close to unlistenable to due to extreme resonances in the lower midrange region... they were all using extreme state of the art drivers from Thiel, with all these ceramic diaphragms... and in addition you could probably cut steel with them, so sharp, they were...

99.5% of the speakers end up in the second 'it's no good' category in my case, so chances are I'm not at all going to like the speakers but I have to keep looking...

We are actually quite spoiled over here in Norway as there are some local producers that make speakers that you will never ever see in the US audio shows or even read about in Stereophile, Absolute Sound, Hi-Fi+ or whatever... The Scandinavian driver industry makes for possibilities for this industry to flourish quite well here... Some of these products are not really cheap but performancefor some of them is crazy ... and so is the price, unfortunately ...

So Arendal sound is in a very tough market as there are som hi-end speakers around here that are shocking.... I could mention brands like Adyton, Doxa, Dynabel... When I'm thinking Arendal sound... well I just have to take a short trip to Oslo Hi-Fi center and they will provide a demo that will blow me completely away... every time... The price tag will blow me away too ... every time ...

One example:

Frequency response 15-100000Hz +/-3dBSensitivity 95dB/1w/1mImpedance 4Ω
Tweeter 1 pc Ribbon type
Fullrange 18 pcs 3” full range without crossover
Active Woofers 8 pcs 10” in 4m transmission line, 1500w
Balanced force cabinet structure Transmission line, linesource Material PMMA, poly methyl methacrylate, ultra stiff
Physical dimensions 14 x 200 x 60 cm
Weight 150kg each


Or I could go to a small backstreet shop in Bergen where the owner will pull out some new Von Schweikert's in a creative setup that leave you begging for winning a lottery (he's not into Norwegian speakers though)

So if I should go in the direction towards Arendal it would probably better to check out what Norwegian company Doxa does, or maybe I will check Arendal sound...

I guess speaker industry is doin quite good around here...

If the speakers from Arendal sound works is only up to the listener to decide, if it makes me believe the music is genuine and it makes me enjoy the music then they're fine; if not, they're no good for me...
Whatever technical reasons behind the waveguide and whatever, if it doesn't work for me it's the end of the line, no matter the technicalities behind it... simple and easy...

Arendal Sound is in the middle of an extremely tough market...
But their price point is very low compared to the other brands I mentioned...

Sorry guys for going completely amok... just couldn't stop writing...

 

[theJman]

One example:

Frequency response 15-100000Hz +/-3dBSensitivity 95dB/1w/1mImpedance 4Ω
Tweeter 1 pc Ribbon type
Fullrange 18 pcs 3” full range without crossover
Active Woofers 8 pcs 10” in 4m transmission line, 1500w
Balanced force cabinet structure Transmission line, linesource Material PMMA, poly methyl methacrylate, ultra stiff
Physical dimensions 14 x 200 x 60 cm
Weight 150kg each

Those folks are claiming 100,000Hz - 100,000! - from 3" drivers that may very well be something like a Foundtek FR88EX or Tang Band W3-1401SD?! Gotta call BS on that one. If they're going to exaggerate they should have at least made it technically feasible.

 

[haraldo]

Those folks are claiming 100,000Hz - 100,000! - from 3" drivers that may very well be something like a Foundtek FR88EX or Tang Band W3-1401SD?! Gotta call BS on that one. If they're going to exaggerate they should have at least made it technically feasible.

There's no bullshitting, it's a ribbon... starting at 10KHz
Looking closely in the shop, it looks very muck like Fountek fr88ex or fr89ex, certainly NOT Tang Band...
I think the specs are clearly met...
I listened to these once ... quite good, honestly ...

 

[theJman]

There's no bullshitting, it's a ribbon... I think the specs are clearly met...
I listened to these once ...
Perhaps it's for another thread if anyone is interested

The type of tweeter is irrelevant though, because there's simply nothing that can play that high. What could they have used to measure it anyway? And hearing the speakers is certainly not an accurate barometer of anything; you can maybe pick up sounds in the 18kHz range - 20kHz if you're really lucky - but beyond that human acuity is gone. You would have absolutely no way to hear even 25kHz, let alone 100kHz. Frankly I'm surprised they would make such a ridiculous claim. Stuff like that instantly makes people suspicious of everything else they say.

 

[haraldo]

I guess the proof is in the pudding... and Adyton is by far the best selling hi-end speaker brand around here and it's certainly not due to specs... but now this is derailing thread ... sorry ... will stop it ...

 

[Ricardojoa]

Those folks are claiming 100,000Hz - 100,000! - from 3" drivers that may very well be something like a Foundtek FR88EX or Tang Band W3-1401SD?! Gotta call BS on that one. If they're going to exaggerate they should have at least made it technically feasible.

Is has a ribbon tweeter in there. Not the 3" drivers that play 100 khz.

 

[Ricardojoa]

The type of tweeter is irrelevant though, because there's simply nothing that can play that high. What could they have used to measure it anyway? And hearing the speakers is certainly not an accurate barometer of anything; you can maybe pick up sounds in the 18kHz range - 20kHz if you're really lucky - but beyond that human acuity is gone. You would have absolutely no way to hear even 25kHz, let alone 100kHz. Frankly I'm surprised they would make such a ridiculous claim. Stuff like that instantly makes people suspicious of everything else they say.

Just because we cant hear it, manufactures cant rate it if the tweeter is capable to play 100khz?
Im not getting the whole point here.

 

[Ricardojoa]

Do I have a degree in physics? No!

But it's 2016, and we have a very good understanding of sound reproduction. Crossing over a tweeter extra low to allow mid range drivers (or unusual woofers) to even attempt reproducing mid to low bass frequencies is nothing but a compromise in performance, for the sake of budget.

My focus has been entirely on the low crossover point of that tweeter. I do not question waveguides universally. Merely when one is shaped in this way, the best out come, whatever it does, is that it is inaudible!

Don't know what other speakers you've heard, but I think taking advantage of domestic pricing on SEAS drivers will yield the best possible experience! And I'd hate for you to drive several hours to hear those speakers!

Low xover point on "that" tweeter?
Do we even have any info on what type of tweeter used besides is a 28mm in a wave guide?
By the way, i know at least 2 Seas tweeters that can be crossed low (1.5khz)

 

[haraldo]

Low xover point on "that" tweeter?
Do we even have any info on what type of tweeter used besides is a 28mm in a wave guide?
By the way, i know at least 2 Seas tweeters that can be crossed low (1.5khz)

It's written up above in an earlier post who makes the diaphragm and the waveguide, but not said anything about who produces the motor and does the assembly, but it's nothing off-the-shelf...

 

[theJman]

Just because we cant hear it, manufactures cant rate it if the tweeter is capable to play 100khz?
Im not getting the whole point here.

There isn't a tweeter on this plant, no matter what it's made from, that can produce 100kHz sounds. There's no point to get really, but haraldo is right; we're veering off topic, so like him I will discuss it no further.