Anyone using L/R Mains with 4" Woofers?

[StrawHatRonin]

Just curious. I currently have RSL CG24s (MTM) as L/R mains which have 4" woofers. They seem to perform well. Have the AVR crossover set at 90Hz. Wondering though if I'm missing out by not having bookshelf speakers with 5" or 6" woofers. Recently upgraded the center speaker to the Klipsch RP-450c (5" woofers) and am happy with it.

 

[everettT]

Just curious. I currently have RSL CG24s (MTM) as L/R mains which have 4" woofers. They seem to perform well. Have the AVR crossover set at 90Hz. Wondering though if I'm missing out by not having bookshelf speakers with 5" or 6" woofers. Recently upgraded the center speaker to the Klipsch RP-450c (5" woofers) and am happy with it.

4" woofers can only give you so much below the transition frequency but if you have capable subs, it should be irrelevant if properly designed.

 

[StrawHatRonin]

4" woofers can only give you so much below the transition frequency but if you have capable subs, it should be irrelevant if properly designed.

I have a RSL 12S but am saving for a Klipsch RP-1400SW or maybe one of the higher end ported HSU models because the 12S needs a little help with the living area space I have (3500+ CF)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The smallest bass woofer in any of my speakers (even in-ceiling speakers) is 8”, so I don’t do small woofers.

 

[lovinthehd]

How far do you sit from the speakers in the 3500cuft room? How loud do you listen? In my similar sized living room I found (single) 5.25" midwoofers on the light side (but work great in my small bedroom). Perhaps dual subs would be something to consider in any case or even raising crossover....

 

[ski2xblack]

Missing out? Depends. You likely have a dynamic range bottleneck with those particular mains.

If your listening habits don't exceed those limits it doesn't really matter, does it?

On the other hand, running small mains in the red will result in higher distortion than larger, more capable mains operating well within their limits.

So it depends on listening habits, your desired system performance goals, in your particular room.

RSL and Hsu subs have better performance/$ than Klipsch subs, unless they're half off.

 

[StrawHatRonin]

How far do you sit from the speakers in the 3500cuft room? How loud do you listen? In my similar sized living room I found (single) 5.25" midwoofers on the light side (but work great in my small bedroom). Perhaps dual subs would be something to consider in any case or even raising crossover....

Thanks for the reply. I sit roughly 9 feet from the mains and listen at moderatly loud levels. I am using a second 12” Bic sub but I’m selling it to go towards a real sub.

 

[everettT]

I have a RSL 12S but am saving for a Klipsch RP-1400SW or maybe one of the higher end ported HSU models because the 12S needs a little help with the living area space I have (3500+ CF)

With your mains I'd want a sub that plays well into 200hz range and cross as high as possible and with multiple subs that would help with localization. For theater I tend to cross higher than most would recommend but that is what has worked for me. In my stereo setups I constantly am going back and forth with the crossover even though I don't need subs with them.

 

[StrawHatRonin]

Missing out? Depends. You likely have a dynamic range bottleneck with those particular mains.

If your listening habits don't exceed those limits it doesn't really matter, does it?

On the other hand, running small mains in the red will result in higher distortion than larger, more capable mains operating well within their limits.

So it depends on listening habits, your desired system performance goals, in your particular room.

RSL and Hsu subs have better performance/$ than Klipsch subs, unless they're half off.

I never push them very hard. The only way I’d get the Klipsch RP-1400SW would be at the $700 Adorama deal. I can’t find much objective data on it on how it compares to other subs.

 

[ski2xblack]

I would personally go with a second RSL 12S over the Klipsch sub, and if necessary experiment with higher crossover as everett and lovin suggested, as that will sidestep dynamic range limits somewhat.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I would also get a second 12s. It will be much easier to integrate with the first one and overall will be better. I personally like larger, or multiple woofers for a variety of reasons(mine are 12”, and even my surrounds have dual 5.25). One reason being smaller woofers can’t do the upper bass and midrange regions with any real impact. You can raise the XO, but IME you end up with a tubby sound, and the midband just doesn’t come through like it should. Of course every room, system and user preference will be different. IMO, I would be missing out by using those mains despite the fact that they sound very good. Mileage is different for everyone though. This could be a case of FOMO, but it could also be MO, lol.

 

[Verdinut]

Woofers are designed to produce low frequencies and in order to do so, they have to move a lot of air, and 4 inch drivers cannot be considered as woofers because of their small cone areas.

To produce a frequency an octave lower than a set frequency, the woofer has to move four times more to achieve the same SPL as that original set frequency. It's obvious that a 4" driver is quite inefficient in producing low frequencies also taking into account its limited cone excursion (XMax).

 

[StrawHatRonin]

Woofers are designed to produce low frequencies and in order to do so, they have to move a lot of air. and 4 inch drivers cannot be considered as woofers because of their small cone areas.

To produce a frequency an octave lower than a set frequency, the woofer has to move four times more to achieve the same SPL as that original set frequency. It's obvious that a 4" driver is quite inefficient in producing low frequencies also taking into account its limited cone excursion (XMax).

Sounds like I just need to shift the CG24s over to surrounds (system would be 7.1 then) and get some new bookshelves with at least 6” cones. Was looking at FR when I first set them up as mains but failed to take into account the steep FR curve drop off that all speakers have near their limits.

Edit: well duh, also have Kef Q300's that I'm running as surrounds. Looked up the FR and these go down to 42Hz. I'm just going to use the Kef's as mains, CG24s as surrounds and get a second sub.

 

[everettT]

Sounds like I just need to shift the CG24s over to surrounds (system would be 7.1 then) and get some new bookshelves with at least 6” cones. Was looking at FR when I first set them up as mains but failed to take into account the steep FR curve drop off that all speakers have near their limits.

Edit: well duh, also have Kef Q300's that I'm running as surrounds. Looked up the FR and these go down to 42Hz. I'm just going to use the Kef's as mains, CG24s as surrounds and get a second sub.

I'd still crossover around 100hz when you get your second sub, as dual 4" vs a single 6" isn't much difference in the end.

 

[StrawHatRonin]

I'd still crossover around 100hz when you get your second sub, as dual 4" vs a single 6" isn't much difference in the end.

Thanks. Sounds like I just should leave things as is (except for a new sub). Dirac Live can be a pain to run sometimes.

 

[everettT]

Thanks. Sounds like I just should leave things as is (except for a new sub). Dirac Live can be a pain to run sometimes.

I get it, I can't tell you how many times I've run room correction over the years but with your mains nothing really should change as it's the low frequency that is most important and you'll have to rerun for that, just cut the correction off at 200hz.

Good luck I'm sure you will be happy with the additional sub.

 

[Wardog555]

I tested some old speakers that was recently sold and they were lacking in terms of midrange and bass.

Sounded too high if you know what I mean

 

[isolar8001]

Just curious. I currently have RSL CG24s (MTM) as L/R mains which have 4" woofers. They seem to perform well. Have the AVR crossover set at 90Hz. Wondering though if I'm missing out by not having bookshelf speakers with 5" or 6" woofers. Recently upgraded the center speaker to the Klipsch RP-450c (5" woofers) and am happy with it.

Probably what you are feeling/seeing is the psychological factor...surely those smaller woofers cant perform as well as slightly larger ones ?
In theory, no. In practice, yes given the use factor.
The main factor being using a subwoofer.

The CG24's were reviewed very favorably here....RSL made those about as good as it can get for what they are.

RSL CG4,CG24 and Speedwoofer 10 Loudspeaker System Review

The RSL CG4/CG24 & Speedwoofer 10 subwoofer/satellite speaker system have a small footprint but offer truly explosive sound and top notch build quality. They prove good things come in small packages.

www.audioholics.com

Myself, I have a similar situation....I have 3 RSL CG25's and used to use the third one as my center.
Then when Q Acoustics were practically giving away their Concept Center speakers, I picked up two of them.
Swapped one for my CG25 center, and guess what ?
In my case, the smaller Q was more pleasing to me.

I still use the Q Concept with dual 4 inch woofers over the CG25 with dual 5 and a quarter inch woofers.
In my setup, it just sounds better...don't know (or care) why.

 

[KenM10759]

To those saying 4" drivers cannot be woofers...please do yourself a favor and go listen to a pair of diminutive Totem Tribe Towers with their dual 4" Torrent drivers. They hit 30hz with some authority. You would be VERY surprised!!

Tribe Tower - Totem Acoustic Loudspeakers