Any under $600 receivers that provide 5.1 channel HDMI audio?

[AlphaWolf]

Ah....so much for the better scaler:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10688792&&#post10688792

What a disappointment. Plus the fact that it runs hot...one of the main reasons I avoided plasma is because of the fact that it runs hot. I live in Arizona so devices that emit too much heat is a bad thing.

And from what I am also reading on AVS, the sound on this unit is horrible at low volumes, and I prefer lower volume to higher volume.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=859114

I ought to see if the Yamaha 661 is available at any local retailers to see if I can try it out. One question to you current 661 owners though: How accurate would you say the YPAO automatic equalizer is?

 

[patnshan]

Ah....so much for the better scaler:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10688792&&#post10688792

What a disappointment. Plus the fact that it runs hot...one of the main reasons I avoided plasma is because of the fact that it runs hot. I live in Arizona so devices that emit too much heat is a bad thing.

And from what I am also reading on AVS, the sound on this unit is horrible at low volumes, and I prefer lower volume to higher volume.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=859114

I ought to see if the Yamaha 661 is available at any local retailers to see if I can try it out. One question to you current 661 owners though: How accurate would you say the YPAO automatic equalizer is?

For me, the YPAO did not work very well. It set my front speakers to large and the LFE cutoff too high. The speaker level settings and distance measurements seem to be spot on though. I basically did the auto setup, then changed the fronts to small and the EQ to 100 Hz. Not that troublesome really.

How big is your room? That would be helpful to determine if that sub would do. I think it would be too small for large rooms.

Pat


Pat

 

[alexsound]

Like the title says, I am trying to find out which receivers support at least 5.1 channel lossless PCM audio over HDMI. It seems that many HDMI audio receivers out there either don't support audio over HDMI at all, or they only support stereo. I am on a tight budget as well, so I am looking at anything under $600, preferably cheaper.

Man did you hit a hot topic on this one. This brand vs that brand. We all seem to have a brand loyalty here, but here's one thing you may want to remember. HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, the next offering more than the previous. Currently there are VERY few components on the market that are HDMI 1.3 ANYTHING. Onkyo is the 1st to offer a 1.3 receiver as far as the audio/vidoe receiver side goes, meaning the 605, 705 805 and up, will decode Doly TrueHD and DTS Pro and SACD and DVD Audio and the meaning of life probably too. As far as the video side goes, IF it's HDMI 1.3, then it WILL pass through video all the way up to 1080P Deep Color. It is the 1st of it's type of product at this price pont. IF you can hold out, wait for some actual pro reviews, not just from Audioholics, but from some of the other major publications out there. One good thing about Onkyo doing what they did is the other boys out there, will try to one-up them. It's the way of the AV world and I bet it will be far sooner than later. Be a little patient and wait a month or two if you can. The wait will more than likely make things a lot clearer as what will be the best receiver you can get for your budget.

 

[darien87]

Ah....so much for the better scaler:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10688792&&#post10688792

What a disappointment. Plus the fact that it runs hot...one of the main reasons I avoided plasma is because of the fact that it runs hot. I live in Arizona so devices that emit too much heat is a bad thing.

And from what I am also reading on AVS, the sound on this unit is horrible at low volumes, and I prefer lower volume to higher volume.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=859114

I ought to see if the Yamaha 661 is available at any local retailers to see if I can try it out. One question to you current 661 owners though: How accurate would you say the YPAO automatic equalizer is?

How hot does the Onkyo run? As long as the unit doesn't shut down, I would think it's no big deal. My PS 3 runs screaming hot all the time. I have 5 fans in my cabinet, and I still can't keep that thing cool. Just for the hell of it, I put a fan on top of my 661 and now it stays downright cold.

What about the equalizer are you interested in? Are you asking if it accurately smooths out frequency response? I haven't even looked at mine since I set it up. I guess I should mess with it to see how it changes the sound. The manual sucks. When performing the auto setup, it asks you how you would like to set the Parametric EQ. It says to use "Natural" to average out the response of all your speakers with higher frequencies being "less emphasized". It says to use "Flat" to average the frequency response, if all your speakers are of the "same quality".

How vague is that? I think I set it to "Flat" when I did my auto setup.

 

[Seth=L]

Man did you hit a hot topic on this one. This brand vs that brand. We all seem to have a brand loyalty here, but here's one thing you may want to remember. HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, the next offering more than the previous. Currently there are VERY few components on the market that are HDMI 1.3 ANYTHING. Onkyo is the 1st to offer a 1.3 receiver as far as the audio/vidoe receiver side goes, meaning the 605, 705 805 and up, will decode Doly TrueHD and DTS Pro and SACD and DVD Audio and the meaning of life probably too. As far as the video side goes, IF it's HDMI 1.3, then it WILL pass through video all the way up to 1080P Deep Color. It is the 1st of it's type of product at this price pont. IF you can hold out, wait for some actual pro reviews, not just from Audioholics, but from some of the other major publications out there. One good thing about Onkyo doing what they did is the other boys out there, will try to one-up them. It's the way of the AV world and I bet it will be far sooner than later. Be a little patient and wait a month or two if you can. The wait will more than likely make things a lot clearer as what will be the best receiver you can get for your budget.

The new slogan for the TX-NR905, "It decodes the meaning of life", instead of their previous slogan for the NR1000, "The receiver Nostradamus would buy".

 

[avaserfi]

The new slogan for the TX-NR905, "It decodes the meaning of life", instead of their previous slogan for the NR1000, "The receiver Nostradamus would buy".

Hmm, maybe a 905 wouldn't be such a good idea. You would turn on the decoder and just hear 42 over and over .

 

[MDS]

I have a couple of comments regarding these 'issues':

1. Runs hot: I've never EVER had an Onkyo receiver that runs hot. Naturally it gets warm and that is normal. The majority of the time when any given receiver is said to run hot, it is because there isn't adequate ventilation. I realize that it can be difficult to actually provide adequate ventilation and I'm in the same boat right now with designing my wall unit.

If you have a few inches above (no way you'll ever get the recommended space of 8 inches), an inch or two on each side, and a big gap at the rear for hot air to escape, it will be fine. This is the 'flue' arrangement that is often recommended for passive cooling of components.

Ever go to a store like circuit city and see how they jam receivers into a little shelf with less than 1/8" at the top? It's a wonder the whole place doesn't burn down. If you have that kind of terrible placement even your DVD player will run 'hot'.

2. Popping: The guy on the AVS thread finally figured out that it was his setup that caused the problem; ie a short caused by stray speaker wires. While it is always possible that intial production runs may have an issue or two, I'd take comments like that with a huge grain of salt. On AVS though, every little comment causes everyone to say 'oh well, I guess I should stay away from that one'. If you read AVS regularly, you'd never buy anything, especially a TV.

3. Upconversion: Sounds like a major non-issue to me. You have to realize that they can only do what they can do with the chips they use in the design. If the Faroudja scaler/deinterlacer converts 1080i to 720p then there is nothing Onkyo engineers can do about it. Everyone seems to be thrilled with 'upconversion' but then expect every solution to handle every possible combination of components and cables - not realistic.

1080i->720p may actually be better than sending the display 1080i anyway because the TV is going to turn around and scale it AGAIN anyway. The main complaint I've seen with TVs is that many have poor deinterlacers. So if the deinterlacing is done before it gets to the TV, the TV only has to scale.

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water because a few people with overly complex setups are concerned that one receiver can't do every possible thing to their satisfaction.

 

[Seth=L]

Hmm, maybe a 905 wouldn't be such a good idea. You would turn on the decoder and just hear 42 over and over .

That would be quite annoying, strangely the only thing the bowl of petunias thought was, "Oh no, not this again".

 

[alexsound]

I have a couple of comments regarding these 'issues':

1. Runs hot: I've never EVER had an Onkyo receiver that runs hot. Naturally it gets warm and that is normal. The majority of the time when any given receiver is said to run hot, it is because there isn't adequate ventilation. I realize that it can be difficult to actually provide adequate ventilation and I'm in the same boat right now with designing my wall unit.

If you have a few inches above (no way you'll ever get the recommended space of 8 inches), an inch or two on each side, and a big gap at the rear for hot air to escape, it will be fine. This is the 'flue' arrangement that is often recommended for passive cooling of components.

Ever go to a store like circuit city and see how they jam receivers into a little shelf with less than 1/8" at the top? It's a wonder the whole place doesn't burn down. If you have that kind of terrible placement even your DVD player will run 'hot'.

2. Popping: The guy on the AVS thread finally figured out that it was his setup that caused the problem; ie a short caused by stray speaker wires. While it is always possible that intial production runs may have an issue or two, I'd take comments like that with a huge grain of salt. On AVS though, every little comment causes everyone to say 'oh well, I guess I should stay away from that one'. If you read AVS regularly, you'd never buy anything, especially a TV.

3. Upconversion: Sounds like a major non-issue to me. You have to realize that they can only do what they can do with the chips they use in the design. If the Faroudja scaler/deinterlacer converts 1080i to 720p then there is nothing Onkyo engineers can do about it. Everyone seems to be thrilled with 'upconversion' but then expect every solution to handle every possible combination of components and cables - not realistic.

1080i->720p may actually be better than sending the display 1080i anyway because the TV is going to turn around and scale it AGAIN anyway. The main complaint I've seen with TVs is that many have poor deinterlacers. So if the deinterlacing is done before it gets to the TV, the TV only has to scale.

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water because a few people with overly complex setups are concerned that one receiver can't do every possible thing to their satisfaction.

Actually, the 603 and the 604 are pretty well know to run hotter than normal, at least I have seen other threads in other forums that also mention this. I have a 603x, well my son does and I can tell you that the top can get umcomfortable to the touch. Seth is correct, however in that as long as it doesn't shut down, as is properly vented, there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[MDS]

And many Yamaha receivers 'are known to run hotter than normal'. Now what is normal? I can assure you that nobody has ever measured the temperature or done a study across a large number of receiver models to establish a baseline for what is 'normal'. Warm to the touch is well within normal. So hot you could fry an egg on it is a problem.

Just like the guy on AVS that immediately spouted off about how his receiver was defective because it makes popping sounds and everyone jumped on the bandwagon only to find out it was his own user error.

All I'm saying is that you have to have a very large sample size to draw any definitive conclusions and scuttlebutt should be taken for what it is - hearsay.

 

[alexsound]

And many Yamaha receivers 'are known to run hotter than normal'. Now what is normal? I can assure you that nobody has ever measured the temperature or done a study across a large number of receiver models to establish a baseline for what is 'normal'. Warm to the touch is well within normal. So hot you could fry an egg on it is a problem.

Just like the guy on AVS that immediately spouted off about how his receiver was defective because it makes popping sounds and everyone jumped on the bandwagon only to find out it was his own user error.

All I'm saying is that you have to have a very large sample size to draw any definitive conclusions and scuttlebutt should be taken for what it is - hearsay.

I understand what you are saying about hearsay, however, the term "hot" by definition, as far as audio components are concerned, would be touching and not being able to keep your hands on top or side of the component for more than a second or two without quickly pulling back for fear of being burned. While I didn't put this in quotations, this was once said by Juliene Hirsch of Stereo Review fame. At that time, 70's, early 80's, it was sort of a big deal if an amp got hot because materials technology wasn't what is it today as far as being able to handle high temperatures. The 603x I have is on top of the small AV rack in my son's room with nothing to the sides and top. Even the guys at CCity know this particular model runs hot, which is why I have it installed that way. Again, not really a big deal if it's designed to run that way. I use to have, YEARS ago, a Proton amp that would run real hot, couldn't touch the top of the darn thing after running for 10 minutes or so, but it lasted me a long time until I sold it and got a bigger amp. By the way, hot or not, I still really like that little 603x.

 

[MDS]

I understand and am not intending to 'call you out' on the issue. Maybe it does run hotter than other receivers or my current or prior Onkyo receivers. I just want people to look at the totality of what is offered and not necessarily be spooked by one little thing that may not be much of a problem.

I tend to upgrade on a 3-5 year cycle and intend to get one of the new x05 (likely 705) models this time around. If it runs hotter than my current one so be it as long as it isn't so hot that the AC runs constantly and my utility bill skyrockets.

 

[alexsound]

I understand and am not intending to 'call you out' on the issue. Maybe it does run hotter than other receivers or my current or prior Onkyo receivers. I just want people to look at the totality of what is offered and not necessarily be spooked by one little thing that may not be much of a problem.

I tend to upgrade on a 3-5 year cycle and intend to get one of the new x05 (likely 705) models this time around. If it runs hotter than my current one so be it as long as it isn't so hot that the AC runs constantly and my utility bill skyrockets. [/QUOTE

I know you weren't trying to call me out on this. I think it was more of a lack of explanation on the "hot" comment I made. I've actually had friends over the years literally fry their electronic componets ( a tape deck, believe it or not!! They took the bottom "feet" off so it could fit nicely in a cabinet on top of the integrated amp they hooked it up to!!!) because they wouldn't adequately ventilate them. That is by far a bigger problem, lack of venting, than any design that has a component running hot. Anyway's I too am looking at upgrading soon, but I may hold out a little longer until I see some
tests on the new batch of 1.3's (really want to see an 805 test) coming out. The 705 does looks pretty HOT. Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[AlphaWolf]

How hot does the Onkyo run? As long as the unit doesn't shut down, I would think it's no big deal. My PS 3 runs screaming hot all the time. I have 5 fans in my cabinet, and I still can't keep that thing cool. Just for the hell of it, I put a fan on top of my 661 and now it stays downright cold.

Well, the problem with things getting hot like that, or at least producing a lot of heat in general, is that it drives the cost of utilities way up since the A/C needs to be running more often.

Actually my current receiver sits out in the open on top of a shelf, so heat buildup isn't a concern; just the amount of heat produced overall.

What about the equalizer are you interested in? Are you asking if it accurately smooths out frequency response?

Yep.

1080i->720p may actually be better than sending the display 1080i anyway because the TV is going to turn around and scale it AGAIN anyway. The main complaint I've seen with TVs is that many have poor deinterlacers. So if the deinterlacing is done before it gets to the TV, the TV only has to scale.

But then you are losing about a third of the pixels.

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water because a few people with overly complex setups are concerned that one receiver can't do every possible thing to their satisfaction.

Good point.

 

[MDS]

But then you are losing about a third of the pixels.
(regarding 1080i->720p)

It depends on how it is processed. If it first deinterlaces 1080i to 1080p you double the number of pixels. Then that image is decimated to 720p. If it decimates first, the result will be slightly different. I would think that only poor implementations would decimate first but who knows?

To me it's just one of those things that isn't really worth getting too hung up on. After all if you don't like the result, just turn off the upconversion and run an extra cable to a different input on the TV.

 

[AlphaWolf]

It depends on how it is processed. If it first deinterlaces 1080i to 1080p you double the number of pixels. Then that image is decimated to 720p. If it decimates first, the result will be slightly different. I would think that only poor implementations would decimate first but who knows?

To me it's just one of those things that isn't really worth getting too hung up on. After all if you don't like the result, just turn off the upconversion and run an extra cable to a different input on the TV.

Well, doesn't that depend on how the deinterlace is done? If it is a regular inverse telecine, then you sacrifice about 5fps but essentially obtain the entire 1920x1080, and you'd then be dropping that down to 1280x720. If it is done using a frame bob, then you'd have 1920x540 going to 1280x720. Either way you are losing 660 lines of horizontal resolution though.

 

[Seth=L]

And many Yamaha receivers 'are known to run hotter than normal'. Now what is normal? I can assure you that nobody has ever measured the temperature or done a study across a large number of receiver models to establish a baseline for what is 'normal'. Warm to the touch is well within normal. So hot you could fry an egg on it is a problem.

Just like the guy on AVS that immediately spouted off about how his receiver was defective because it makes popping sounds and everyone jumped on the bandwagon only to find out it was his own user error.

All I'm saying is that you have to have a very large sample size to draw any definitive conclusions and scuttlebutt should be taken for what it is - hearsay.

Indeed, and even if the receiver runs hot, so what, put a forced air cooling system on it and call it good. The TX-SR605 probably doesn't have an internal fan to protect it from extreme temp. rise, so putting a fan on it can be quite good. I personally put a fan on my JVC because the power supply gets very warm if the unit isn't being used to anywhere near capacity. So the JVC with the fan on it runs cool full time.

 

[MDS]

I'm not an expert on the methods used but isn't inverse telecine the process of taking 24 fps and converting it to 30 or 60 fps? That isn't really the issue here.

Deinterlacing and scaling are separate. 1080i -> 1080p is pretty straightfoward and decimation to 720p simply involves throwing away lines. The inverse of scaling 720p to 1080i or 1080p is where interpolation comes in because the processor has to 'invent' new lines to fill in the gaps.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I'm not an expert on the methods used but isn't inverse telecine the process of taking 24 fps and converting it to 30 or 60 fps?

From 29.9 something to 24.5 something.

Deinterlacing and scaling are separate. 1080i -> 1080p is pretty straightfoward and decimation to 720p simply involves throwing away lines.

Not quite - if you did that you'd add aliasing to the picture - this is called nearest neighbor interpolation.

The same math you were alluding to commonly used to enlarge the image (bilinear interpolation) is commonly used to shrink the image as well. Imagine you had a white pixel, then a black one, followed by another white one. Shrinking the image by blending that black pixel into its neighbors by modifying their color values would look "smoother" than just deleting that middle black pixel completely. Or at least, you'd be giving up a lot more information that way.

This is what bilinear interpolation does, it treats the entire image as one big mathematic formula - as one function instead of individual pixels - and then recalculates what e.g. one pixel should look like given the known information about other pixels without actually removing any part of the equation like what nearest neighbor interpolation does (the final result ends up losing data of course, but the calculation itself doesn't "throw away" anything.)

Or at least, this is how I understand it anyways. Have a look here: (this is about a 15-30 minute read)

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/image-interpolation.htm

FWIW I am not an expert either, I just happen to know this based on my own experience with both image manipulation and with reading up on how modern GPU's do their magic.

 

[AlphaWolf]

MDS one other question though, what is your response to the 605 being weak at lower volumes? This is one of the key things for me - I by and large prefer low volume most of the time.