Any of you guys into headphones?

[WmAx]

So you just admitted that you cannot prove your point. You cannot scientificlly prove anything you are saying(I did not say they could)

Very little is 100% provable. I can't prove that the psychics can't talk to the dead. But based upon rational deduction, it can not be assumed that they can, when such has not been demonstrated by them in a credible controlled test. People can say[make up] anything, and it would be near impossible to prove they are wrong. What is rational, is to accept only what is proven as highly probable, if you care for any sort of efficient model of deduction/investigation.

Also all this talk of "flawed experiments" is completly bunk.

Then, enlighten me.

-Chris

 

[sts9fan]

"Then, enlighten me."

If you read the rest of my post you would understand. I am saying that a "Perfect experiment" can and will not happen. You have to settle for good enough. Interpretation of the data is whats important. Anyway you have an ax to grind so it really is pointless to argue. I agree that there is a ton of snake oil out there but you will not convince me that you know the point at where paying for a higher quality product becomes moot in regards to sound as you claim. You won't even say what gear you use so who do we know what your base is.

 

[warpdrive]

I have measured the headphone amplifiers which I use, under realistic termination loads and input/output voltages, in order to confirm that they are linear[within known audible thresholds].

What about distortion? Did you measure that?

 

[warpdrive]

So we're all in agreement that this discussion is deadlocked?

Good

I'm still interested in the Musical Fidelity X-CAN V3. Since it has to be warmed up, I assume people just leave it on all the time? I've never had any tube gear, can somebody point to some basic FAQ'S about care and feeding of something like the X-CAN.

 

[WmAx]

"Then, enlighten me."

If you read the rest of my post you would understand. I am saying that a "Perfect experiment" can and will not happen.

I never claimed a perfect experiment existed. If my wording was not specific enough, I apologize. Let me clarify: The experiments suggested earlier in the thread would be highly flawed, if the purpose of said experiments was to deduct why one percieved a difference.

Anyway you have an ax to grind so it really is pointless to argue.

I don't have an axe to grind[at least not of which I am aware]. It might seem that way sometimes, but if you read my posts, I only respond to the issues, and not in an angry or otherwise offending manner, except in very rare cases[will be difficult to find such an example].

I agree that there is a ton of snake oil out there but you will not convince me that you know the point at where paying for a higher quality product becomes moot in regards to sound as you claim.

You are free to do as you please. I am not specifically targetting any one person, or trying to force someone to think differently, I am simply preserving the rational component of this superb forum.

You won't even say what gear you use so who do we know what your base is.

I already explained why I will not mention[within the context of a debate] specific brand/model equipment that I may or may not have owned and/or used in a prior post. If you simply must associate me with some sort of audio device, I do own a Sony ICF-C25 AM/FM clock radio. Feel free to picture me listening to this.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

What about distortion? Did you measure that?

Yes, at several different fundamental frequencies, under several different loads, at several different voltages, and with manual examination of the harmonic spectrums in all cases.

-Chris

 

[Privateer]

I already explained why I will not mention[within the context of a debate] specific brand/model equipment that I may or may not have owned and/or used in a prior post. If you simply must associate me with some sort of audio device, I do own a Sony ICF-C25 AM/FM clock radio. Feel free to picture me listening to this.

Because you have nothing.

 

[sts9fan]

see

"I never claimed a perfect experiment existed. If my wording was not specific enough, I apologize. Let me clarify: The experiments suggested earlier in the thread would be highly flawed, if the purpose of said experiments was to deduct why one percieved a difference."


Nobody here ever said the purpose of an experiment is WHY someone hears differences. You are basing your arguments on things nobody said.

 

[WmAx]

Nobody here ever said the purpose of an experiment is WHY someone hears differences. You are basing your arguments on things nobody said.

Please re-read the initial suggestion of the A/B test, my response, the second response from the intiator, and my second response. And in the context of this overall discussion, the causation of perceived differences was mentioned several times, and is in fact, the overall subject now.

-Chris

 

[Steve1000]

That's really interesting. I'm a big headphone listener. I am curious, are the parameters of the Yamaha headphone out setting (channel separation, delay, etc.) adjustable, or is it just one static setting? What does it do to the sound? Does it still sound pretty clean?

I've rediscovered the joys of headphone listening for music. And even started to use headphones so I can watch movies later at night without disturbing the wife. It's not surround, but my Yamaha receiver gives a good sense of ambience with its Silent Surround headphone circuit.

 

[Steve1000]

You might at least consider the possibility that WmAx is right that it is really really easy to make a headphone amp that is linear, quiet and adds no audible distortion to the signal. Since the X-can looks to be a box with an input, a line out, a headphone out, and a volume knob (in terms of features), that, I would guess, is its primary and only task.

I have a $400 headphone amp, but I don't have any illusions that it does anything audibly superior in terms of the basic task of amplification. It runs super-cool and super-quiet, looks real pretty, seems very immune to ground loops and electronic intereferences compared to other equipmet I have, has a wonderful huge volume knob, has a very nice 3-level crossfeed circuit, has separate near-0-ohm and industry standard 120 ohm headphone jacks, and has the lowest noise I've run across with headphones at even the most insane unreal volume levels that you could imagine. (I don't acutally listen at such volume levels, but I get psyched as a hobbyist to hear that the noise level is so low even with the volume jacked up.) Was it worth it to me, a bona fide headphone nut with a little pocket change? Why, yes it was. Do I think it amplifies in terms of audible performance at real-world listening levels any better than my $60 Behringer mixer (which has panning / tone control / pro-audio inputs / line level adjustment controls / cool flashing lights / multiple inputs and outputs etc. etc.)? Nope.

So if you are getting some psychological or feature or ultra-(but not audible)-performance benefits of that nature, that suit your preferences with the X-cans, go for it. But at least think about it. Don't expect sonic miracles as compared to your Yamaha receiver. You might even consider the possibility that any such claim by X-cans is a variety of snake-oil peddling. I also have a Behringer DEQ2496 digital equalizer and the $60 Behringer mixer that I find just a blast for adding to my headphone listening hobby. If you like or are attracted to the tube sound there's a Behringer pro audio tube processor where you can adjust and fine-tune the distortions / warmth / linearity / bass emphasis manually that might be really nice. Signal to noise ratio is specced at greater than 100 db.

This is headphone listening we are talking about.

How do you know your amps are linear? Except for a few very rare cases, I've never seen any meaningful measurements on the headphone outputs.

After all, the headphone output of your own receiver may be correspondly bad in terms of know quantifiable criteria. It may have high distortion, rolled off bass response under 40Hz feeding your 300 ohm Sennheisers

 

[mulester7]

.....anyone, displaying ANY ego in their posts, concerning ANY topic, will soon be, if not already, exposed to the readership....when we get to the point we desire the truth to be exposed, and could care less who exposes it, we've reached a desired level, imo....

.....at another site, one guy said one day he wished things would get more comfortable and accepting, as if we were a bunch of friends just sitting around a large table on a beautiful terrace with a grand view of the ocean, just sipping coffee and enjoying talking to each other, seeking truth, not tournament.....

.....cleavage, however, while generally looked down upon, is almost without fail accepted, appreciated, and desired.....

 

[MacManNM]

.....anyone, displaying ANY ego in their posts, concerning ANY topic, will soon be, if not already, exposed to the readership....when we get to the point we desire the truth to be exposed, and could care less who exposes it, we've reached a desired level, imo....

.....at another site, one guy said one day he wished things would get more comfortable and accepting, as if we were a bunch of friends just sitting around a large table on a beautiful terrace with a grand view of the ocean, just sipping coffee and enjoying talking to each other, seeking truth, not tournament.....

.....cleavage, however, while generally looked down upon, is almost without fail accepted, appreciated, and desired.....

Mule,
You are so poetic.

BTW: I like cleavage too!

 

[mulester7]

.....it's a curse, Mac....yeah, both topics.....

 

[warpdrive]

That's really interesting. I'm a big headphone listener. I am curious, are the parameters of the Yamaha headphone out setting (channel separation, delay, etc.) adjustable, or is it just one static setting? What does it do to the sound? Does it still sound pretty clean?

The Yamaha does do processing with head-transfer functions to open up the space in the soundstage, and provide some resemblance to surround sound in your earphone.

I've never tried adjusting any parameters, but all the DSP modes are audible through the headphone jack.

I'll let their marketing speak tell the story, but for movies, it has a really noticeable effect which I prefer over the regular mixed stereo mode. http://www.yamaha.ca/av/technology/silent_cinema.jsp

 

[warpdrive]

You might at least consider the possibility that WmAx is right that it is really really easy to make a headphone amp that is linear, quiet and adds no audible distortion to the signal. Since the X-can looks to be a box with an input, a line out, a headphone out, and a volume knob (in terms of features), that, I would guess, is its primary and only task.

I have a $400 headphone amp, .

Which one?

I'm not looking for anything fancy, just a good solid component that will serve me well into the future no matter which headphone I buy.

 

[WmAx]

Which one?

I'm not looking for anything fancy, just a good solid component that will serve me well into the future no matter which headphone I buy.

If the sound processing dsp that you refer to in a prior post is important to you, then you should consider the AKG Hearo 999 headphone amplifier/processor, if you want a stand alone and versatile solution. It can directly accept Dolby Digital input or it can simulate surrounding sound with stereo signals. It has various HRTF settings; you pick the one that works best.

http://www.akg.com/products/powerslave,mynodeid,15,id,248,pid,248,_language,EN.html

It costs roughly $500.00 USD.

-Chris

 

[Steve1000]

I have the first model of the Corda HA-1 or Corda Headamp-1. These are made by Jan Meier in Germany; he has a web site, etc. The latest version, the HA-1 Mk II, runs about $375.

Unfortunately, the HA-1 was his top-of-the-line model when I bought it, and now it is pretty much the bottom of the line. The features in the newer version have been stripped back a little bit, seemingly to tempt buyers into absurdly priced more expensive offerings. Mine has 3 levels of crossfeed, while the Corda HA-1 Mk II only has 2 levels. Mine has a 0 ohm jack and a 120 ohm jack, while the HA-1 Mk II has only a 0 ohm jack. He usually throws in a 120-ohm adapter with devices with only a 0 ohm jack, but still, it's not as nice as it used to be. I'm afraid the Corda line has gone upscale into absurdly high price level territory. Still, I would far prefer his devices to a bare-bones tube headphone amp, which is going to generate a lot of heat and therefore perhaps not last a lifetime, and might introduce levels of noise and distortion that are easily outperformed by solid state devices.

I can't recommend the Corda line as highly as I used too. But here's the web address if you're interested:

http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/

I willl say my experience a few years ago was that as a general rule the Corda products kicked the snot out of the headroom products in terms of ergonomics, noise, crossfeed circuit, and subjective judgment in design overall.

Which one?

I'm not looking for anything fancy, just a good solid component that will serve me well into the future no matter which headphone I buy.

 

[Steve1000]

That looks awesome.

If the sound processing dsp that you refer to in a prior post is important to you, then you should consider the AKG Hearo 999 headphone amplifier/processor, if you want a stand alone and versatile solution. It can directly accept Dolby Digital input or it can simulate surrounding sound with stereo signals. It has various HRTF settings; you pick the one that works best.

http://www.akg.com/products/powerslave,mynodeid,15,id,248,pid,248,_language,EN.html

It costs roughly $500.00 USD.

-Chris

 

[nm2285]

So basically what I get out of this thread:

"Properly" designed headphone amps are linear and have very low distortion and among those, there are no audible differences regardless of price point. Therefore, if there is a sonic difference among amps, it must be because of an oddity in the frequency response curve, whether purposeful (probably since it's easy to make them linear) or not. As for experiments, if a non-blind comparison is enough to convince a person...fine. However, for the sake of science and absolutes, the more accurate the experiment, the better. None are perfect, but the closer, the better.

So if someone likes an amp with a boost or a dip in the freq response curve, there's nothing wrong with that...they should buy what sounds best to them.

Wmax was never implying that there are no sonic differences in amps, just in those that have a linear freq response. Nor was he implying that one that doesn't is a bad thing. It's his goal to buy one that's flat, maybe not yours.

Oh yeah, and Privateer has nothing worthwhile to add to the discussion/debate/argument. Just some flamewar-inducing comments.

So back to the original point of the thread:
I own some Senn HD590s that I power with my NAD int amp and for portables I have Etymotic ER-6s