Anthem MRX 740 vs MRX 1140 AV Receiver Bench Test Comparison!

N

NCAV

Audiophyte
Curious, this states they aren't the most powerful in class, what receivers are more powerful than the 740 in this class?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Curious, this states they aren't the most powerful in class, what receivers are more powerful than the 740 in this class?
Denon, Marantz and Yamaha usually have more power output than similar-priced AVR from Anthem, Audio Control, Arcam, and few other smaller companies.

For example, just looking my my old notes for 4-ohms/1% THD power output x 2CH :
Yamaha RX-A3000 series: 294W
Yamaha RX-A2000 series: 260W
Denon X7200: 266W
Anthem 1120: 243W
Anthem 710: 223W
 
N

NCAV

Audiophyte
Ah, ok, is it possible that the advertised #'s don't match up to reality? I've tested an Anthem 1140, Denon 6700, Yamaha RX-A8A, Integra 5.4 and none of them seemed to produce the sound of the Anthem, decibel, sound stage quality, solid sound low's to highs. The issue is the one I had, had issues with the HDMI video signal and then it also doesn't support 4k 120hz which is a deal breaker. Even from just a standpoint hooking receivers up and cranking the volume, the Anthem, the lights start dimming severely, and not even a blip from the Yamaha, Denon's which on paper are rated more. Also they're not producing the lows and probably the decibels of the Anthem when I tested. So I've been looking for other options outside of the above and right now testing an Onkyo RZ50 but with a 7 channel amp but sound through the external amp is muted compared to directly coming from the receiver. The amp manufacturer is now blaming the Onkyo and the fact it's pre out voltage is 1v and stating that's not enough for the amp to effective reach it's potential. So thus my question, trying to find the something that is close to the Anthem power and quality wise but also supports HDMI 2.1 or doesn't have video issues with just HDMI 2.0. Trying not to jump full into a pre processor, 11 channel amp to start.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Ah, ok, is it possible that the advertised #'s don't match up to reality?
I wasn't talking about advertised specs.

I was talking about ACTUAL MEASURED power outputs from review labs like S&V Magazine, Audioholics, etc.

As for the difference in sound, if 2 AVR/AVP/AMP are set up exactly the same - like all in DIRECT MODE - and you VOLUME MATCH each one, then you most likely won't hear any difference.

If you use any kind of EQ or DSP modes, then all bets are off and they will all sound differently.

But if you don't level-match, then one AVR/AVP/AMP could sound 1dB or 2dB or 3dB LOUDER. This will make the louder AVR/AVP/AMP sound better because you are thinking that they are the same volume when in fact they are not.

I can take 2 identical AVR and make one of them sound 10dB LOUDER than the other one even when both have the SAME MASTER VOLUME! All I have to do is increase the PRE-AMP speaker levels.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
Ah, ok, is it possible that the advertised #'s don't match up to reality? I've tested an Anthem 1140, Denon 6700, Yamaha RX-A8A, Integra 5.4 and none of them seemed to produce the sound of the Anthem, decibel, sound stage quality, solid sound low's to highs. The issue is the one I had, had issues with the HDMI video signal and then it also doesn't support 4k 120hz which is a deal breaker. Even from just a standpoint hooking receivers up and cranking the volume, the Anthem, the lights start dimming severely, and not even a blip from the Yamaha, Denon's which on paper are rated more. Also they're not producing the lows and probably the decibels of the Anthem when I tested. So I've been looking for other options outside of the above and right now testing an Onkyo RZ50 but with a 7 channel amp but sound through the external amp is muted compared to directly coming from the receiver. The amp manufacturer is now blaming the Onkyo and the fact it's pre out voltage is 1v and stating that's not enough for the amp to effective reach it's potential. So thus my question, trying to find the something that is close to the Anthem power and quality wise but also supports HDMI 2.1 or doesn't have video issues with just HDMI 2.0. Trying not to jump full into a pre processor, 11 channel amp to start.
How do you know what the preout voltage is, manufacturers usually put out a generic number. Also, matching amp gain is something that is important when purchasing products. Even with a generic number that should give you enough information to investigate further or make a decision on a preamp?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Even from just a standpoint hooking receivers up and cranking the volume, the Anthem, the lights start dimming severely,
That’s a bad sign. I would be scared to death the thing might cause a fire or blow up the speakers.
 
N

NCAV

Audiophyte
Everett, thank you for the response. It's an assumption based on what's listed in the manual which states 1v. I opened a ticket with the amp manufacturer, about a couple of issues, one was noticing how the volume was down when going through the amp vs speakers directly through the Onkyo.

The volume setting on the receiver I understand isn't that relative, but when increasing the volume level, to higher levels, it seems the sounds start separating and getting pitchy.

The response I got was because because the Onkyo isn't outputting the properly preout voltage for amps to utilize their potential.

However, reading this, I'm forming the conclusion it may not be ideal for this particular amp and it wasn't correct for them to insinuate this the case for all amps. My frustration is I called and asked, explained what I'm trying to achieve beforehand and wouldn't have went this route if they aren't a match. There is a lot to that conversation and don't want to type out 3 pages here.

But more importantly, moving forward, is there 5 or 7 channel amp out there I could shop for that could utilize it's full potential with either the Onkyo RZ50 or Integra 5.4 where the spec states the output is 1v. This is from the Integra documentation.

Rated RCA Output Level and Impedance PRE OUT : 1 V/470 Ω PRE OUT(ZONE 2) : 1 V/2.2 kΩ LINE OUT (ZONE 2, ZONE B): 200 mV/2.2 kΩ LINE OUT (ZONE 3) : 200 mV/470 Ω

In closing, this concept is new to me as of several hours ago and so now I'm scrambling to try and figure out what to do before my return dates expire. (I apologize beforehand if my terminology in this area is a bit off right now.)
 
N

NCAV

Audiophyte
That’s a bad sign. I would be scared to death the thing might cause a fire or blow up the speakers.
How so? I take that to mean it's using a beefier power supply and actually generating more? I build out a race trailer audio add 3 amps, or whatever, at certain volume levels lights are going to flicker. If you're talking about over loading electrical wires to cause them to get hot and catch fire, what a circuit breaker is for. You can take printers, a ink jet and print and take a Laser print on the same circuit, laser can cause a light flicker in a residential house setting but it's not going to trip a 15 amp breaker or heat the wires up to cause a fire.

As for the speakers, I'm puzzled, the Anthem the sound stays full throughout the volume, crisp and clean. The others mentioned, the sound starts separating and even some clipping which I was under the impression of where speaker damage would come from. (I'm not on here advocating Anthem, I sent mine back because of the HDMI issues, but the sound profile and quality I haven't found a equal as of yet and I'm searching hard.) Open to learn but not sure how it's a bad sign. I'm looking at it as the other receivers I've tried rated at more power, particular the A8A don't really have the power advertised.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Everett, thank you for the response. It's an assumption based on what's listed in the manual which states 1v. I opened a ticket with the amp manufacturer, about a couple of issues, one was noticing how the volume was down when going through the amp vs speakers directly through the Onkyo.
Onkyo likely meant it takes 1 V for the receiver's power amp to reach its rated output. That is not the maximum pre out voltage. The maximum pre out voltage is usually dependent on the volume control IC, but unfortunately they rarely tell you which IC they use (Denon and Marantz does tell you that, but not Anthem). By the way, Yamaha specify 1 V too, and Denon/Marantz 1.2 V on their specifications sheets and/or owner's manuals, but they all can output much higher voltages.

Fortunately, the Onkyo RZ50 has been measured by ASR, take a look and you will see that it actually can output well over 3 V rms.

Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

The volume setting on the receiver I understand isn't that relative, but when increasing the volume level, to higher levels, it seems the sounds start separating and getting pitchy.
Obviously the pre out voltage will depend on the master volume setting as well as the level trim setting. Pease refer to ADTG's post too as he made the point that you really can't just go by the volume setting alone either.

The response I got was because because the Onkyo isn't outputting the properly preout voltage for amps to utilize their potential.
Absolutely not true in this case, unfortunately you can't always rely on the first line customer support responders because a) they might have understood your question clearly, b) your question requires someone who has more technical knowledge than the one who responded and c) other reasons....

However, reading this, I'm forming the conclusion it may not be ideal for this particular amp and it wasn't correct for them to insinuate this the case for all amps. My frustration is I called and asked, explained what I'm trying to achieve beforehand and wouldn't have went this route if they aren't a match. There is a lot to that conversation and don't want to type out 3 pages here.
There are good reasons many resort to forums such as Audioholics.com, or Audiosciencereview.com for help, one being that you can't always get your questions answered by those customer support staff. Mind you they probably have to deal with too many customers/questions to take the time necessary to understand your questions fully and research for the correct answers.

But more importantly, moving forward, is there 5 or 7 channel amp out there I could shop for that could utilize it's full potential with either the Onkyo RZ50 or Integra 5.4 where the spec states the output is 1v. This is from the Integra documentation.
Given the Onkyo's >3 V preout performance, I would say as long as the power amp of your choice has gain >26 dB, you should be in good shape. A quick calculation shows the following results, based on 8 ohm loads (double the output if 4 ohm):

Pre out Vrms (V)Power amp gain (dB)Power amp output (W)
223100
226200
229400
12325
12650
129100



Rated RCA Output Level and Impedance PRE OUT : 1 V/470 Ω PRE OUT(ZONE 2) : 1 V/2.2 kΩ LINE OUT (ZONE 2, ZONE B): 200 mV/2.2 kΩ LINE OUT (ZONE 3) : 200 mV/470 Ω

In closing, this concept is new to me as of several hours ago and so now I'm scrambling to try and figure out what to do before my return dates expire. (I apologize beforehand if my terminology in this area is a bit off right now.)
Again, that's a matter of interpretation of such specs. It's not your fault, manufacturers just don't explain or provide enough details, making it difficult even for their customer support staff, let alone the average consumers.

Another good example is the way they specify "power consumption" that are often interpreted arbitrarily by the users and even professional reviewers. Their are too many examples to list, even if I wanted to......

By the way, you can find the pre out vs distortions+noise graph in the linked review:

1654866337825.png
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
As for the speakers, I'm puzzled, the Anthem the sound stays full throughout the volume, crisp and clean. The others mentioned, the sound starts separating and even some clipping which I was under the impression of where speaker damage would come from. (I'm not on here advocating Anthem, I sent mine back because of the HDMI issues, but the sound profile and quality I haven't found a equal as of yet and I'm searching hard.) Open to learn but not sure how it's a bad sign. I'm looking at it as the other receivers I've tried rated at more power, particular the A8A don't really have the power advertised.
In that case, I would be puzzled too. The thing is, if you compared that Anthem unit with equivalent (specs, price range etc.) Denon, Marantz, or Yamaha models, and the Anthem sounded audibly different under the same test conditions in pure direct mode, then you need to do a blind test to confirm what you thought you heard. Otherwise, I am quite sure you were not comparing things under the same conditions.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
In that case, I would be puzzled too. The thing is, if you compared that Anthem unit with equivalent (specs, price range etc.) Denon, Marantz, or Yamaha models, and the Anthem sounded audibly different under the same test conditions in pure direct mode, then you need to do a blind test to confirm what you thought you heard. Otherwise, I am quite sure you were not comparing things under the same conditions.
If we made $10 every time we have to say that, we’d be millionaires. :D
 
N

NCAV

Audiophyte
In that case, I would be puzzled too. The thing is, if you compared that Anthem unit with equivalent (specs, price range etc.) Denon, Marantz, or Yamaha models, and the Anthem sounded audibly different under the same test conditions in pure direct mode, then you need to do a blind test to confirm what you thought you heard. Otherwise, I am quite sure you were not comparing things under the same conditions.
On the ones I tested, I'd take that bet all day. (I haven't tested a Morantz) I understand what you're saying and I general don't hear much of a difference, but in this case it's was distinct.

My tests for me were fairly simple.

Xbox Ready Player One blu ray and then the Atmos Demos on Xbox.

Then tested playing music from Amazon Prime HD. (Direct, no blue tooth) (I mainly played music because of these same type of guarantees about speakers and the more you spend the better the sound which just wasn't accurate for me. So I played a lot of different types of music testing the speaker sound and range)

I had the Anthem 1140, denon 6700, Integra 5.4 all at the same time. All setup in the same area and just changed speaker wires (Banana clips).

Played at normal sounds, elevated sounds and close to max sounds. I tried the respective room calibrations but personally I can't tell a difference with any of them or with the settings on or off. Even with the Onkyo, sure I need some treatments in the room.

If your comments are for playing at low levels, 70 db's I would probably agree, but when you start pushing the units by the time you hit the 105db range, I could tell a big difference.

For example, I never thought about Hotel California having much bass. The Anthem straight out of the box, you crank it up, to -15 to -11 literally you can feel the bass but mids and highs all stay together. (Integra isn't isn't in the same price range or specs and I liked the unit, I would probably have went with it if there wasn't a hmm through the HDMI just because I like the built in apps and was hoping to pair with a decent amp and have it suffice but store didn't have another one to see if the one I had was just defective.)

Had somebody indicate they tested a Yamaha A8A which specs are more and per their ears they felt it was slightly better than the Anthem. It is a nice unit but hardly any bass and tried turning the bass up as much as I could. The deal breaker for it though was issues I had with Atmos, for whatever reason it's the only one I tested which didn't properly replicate game sound from COD. Foot steps were too muted and in some cases were missing which was a dealer breaker. That could have been a firmware issue as I went to the latest one that supports 4k 120hz. Not sure what the issue was there but I was really hoping that was the setup but sent it back. (Thing was heavy and built like a tank.)

Then just so happens I was lucky enough to get my hands on the Onkyo Tx-RZ50 and I was hoping that pairing all the 7 lower channels with an AMP and atmos with the receiver would give me what I had.

Low levels it's ok but testing the high has me here asking these questions. Things like they are if an amp isn't going to make a difference with this unit, then will go with a 2 or 4 channel just to power the extra speakers.

However, the main issue I have here is when certain sound changes there is a loud surge. Kind of like a pop but it not an electrical pop but it's change in the audio cause it to surge. Tried getting through to Onkyo support several times and sent this link in email but about to give up on them.

I hope you are correct, there is something out there I can find the same thing and quite frankly, I have 2 SVS 1000 subs now which properly addresses the bass the Anthem generates through the speakers I can't get out of the others. But still would like some kind of combination which holds a uniform sound profile for the high decibel situations just as good as it does the low decibels.

My goal is to have a setup to where dialog and normal scenes are at a good comfortable level, but when the scenes elevate with action, the setup can quickly get there with a clean sound and the bass when it warrants, you can hear and also feel the lows through the room. I pretty much have that with the subs right now, any combination I've mentioned above is decent for lower, normal listening.

I will say this, minus the surge/pop as time goes on and not having a bunch of units to constantly test with, I will agree, even this Onkyo is probably good enough without the issue above. The only thing I'd change is going to a 2 channel or 4 channel amp to power all 11 channels if the amps aren't going to make much of a difference with AVR's at this level via RCA preouts.

WIth all the above, it just seemed for what I'm after an AVR that supports preouts for 11 channels should be the smart way to go with an AMP. If you have any combinations you'd recommend, open to trying. Probably out on Denon as it was just ok and don't care for the apps.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
On the ones I tested, I'd take that bet all day. (I haven't tested a Morantz) I understand what you're saying and I general don't hear much of a difference, but in this case it's was distinct.

My tests for me were fairly simple.

Xbox Ready Player One blu ray and then the Atmos Demos on Xbox.

Then tested playing music from Amazon Prime HD. (Direct, no blue tooth) (I mainly played music because of these same type of guarantees about speakers and the more you spend the better the sound which just wasn't accurate for me. So I played a lot of different types of music testing the speaker sound and range)

I had the Anthem 1140, denon 6700, Integra 5.4 all at the same time. All setup in the same area and just changed speaker wires (Banana clips).

Played at normal sounds, elevated sounds and close to max sounds. I tried the respective room calibrations but personally I can't tell a difference with any of them or with the settings on or off. Even with the Onkyo, sure I need some treatments in the room.

If your comments are for playing at low levels, 70 db's I would probably agree, but when you start pushing the units by the time you hit the 105db range, I could tell a big difference.

For example, I never thought about Hotel California having much bass. The Anthem straight out of the box, you crank it up, to -15 to -11 literally you can feel the bass but mids and highs all stay together. (Integra isn't isn't in the same price range or specs and I liked the unit, I would probably have went with it if there wasn't a hmm through the HDMI just because I like the built in apps and was hoping to pair with a decent amp and have it suffice but store didn't have another one to see if the one I had was just defective.)

Had somebody indicate they tested a Yamaha A8A which specs are more and per their ears they felt it was slightly better than the Anthem. It is a nice unit but hardly any bass and tried turning the bass up as much as I could. The deal breaker for it though was issues I had with Atmos, for whatever reason it's the only one I tested which didn't properly replicate game sound from COD. Foot steps were too muted and in some cases were missing which was a dealer breaker. That could have been a firmware issue as I went to the latest one that supports 4k 120hz. Not sure what the issue was there but I was really hoping that was the setup but sent it back. (Thing was heavy and built like a tank.)

Then just so happens I was lucky enough to get my hands on the Onkyo Tx-RZ50 and I was hoping that pairing all the 7 lower channels with an AMP and atmos with the receiver would give me what I had.

Low levels it's ok but testing the high has me here asking these questions. Things like they are if an amp isn't going to make a difference with this unit, then will go with a 2 or 4 channel just to power the extra speakers.

However, the main issue I have here is when certain sound changes there is a loud surge. Kind of like a pop but it not an electrical pop but it's change in the audio cause it to surge. Tried getting through to Onkyo support several times and sent this link in email but about to give up on them.

I hope you are correct, there is something out there I can find the same thing and quite frankly, I have 2 SVS 1000 subs now which properly addresses the bass the Anthem generates through the speakers I can't get out of the others. But still would like some kind of combination which holds a uniform sound profile for the high decibel situations just as good as it does the low decibels.

My goal is to have a setup to where dialog and normal scenes are at a good comfortable level, but when the scenes elevate with action, the setup can quickly get there with a clean sound and the bass when it warrants, you can hear and also feel the lows through the room. I pretty much have that with the subs right now, any combination I've mentioned above is decent for lower, normal listening.

I will say this, minus the surge/pop as time goes on and not having a bunch of units to constantly test with, I will agree, even this Onkyo is probably good enough without the issue above. The only thing I'd change is going to a 2 channel or 4 channel amp to power all 11 channels if the amps aren't going to make much of a difference with AVR's at this level via RCA preouts.

WIth all the above, it just seemed for what I'm after an AVR that supports preouts for 11 channels should be the smart way to go with an AMP. If you have any combinations you'd recommend, open to trying. Probably out on Denon as it was just ok and don't care for the apps.
So the switching took substantial time? Knowing which is which during the tests is the first bias you experienced. The second relates to the first as our auditory memory is exceptionally short, making it difficult to recall. The last issue, and you may have done it, I didn't see, is level matching, which has tremendous effect on precieved sound.

The bench tests tell you what you're going to hear or not,. Hopefully this makes a little sense.
 
N

NCAV

Audiophyte
So the switching took substantial time? Knowing which is which during the tests is the first bias you experienced. The second relates to the first as our auditory memory is exceptionally short, making it difficult to recall. The last issue, and you may have done it, I didn't see, is level matching, which has tremendous effect on precieved sound.

The bench tests tell you what you're going to hear or not,. Hopefully this makes a little sense.
Think probably took a minute to swap cables out, maybe two but it seems you are only using hearing as your only criteria and that wasn't all that was involved. I understand the point your trying to make and in 99.9% of the time, I really don't notice much different with speakers, receivers etc.

When one receiver actually brings out the lows of a speaker set, literally you can see blinds rattling at certain sound levels with one out of the box, you can adjust bass all the way up on the others and never get the full range of sound through just the speakers. It was pretty drastic and I probably have your same perception if I didn't experience it for myself. You can literally feel the lows to where the recliner feels like it's vibrating at high levels.

With anything with bass, like Hotel California, cranked up it was literally a light show which tells me the unit has a beefier power supply producing a lot of power and possibly explains why the sound profile didn't seem to separate at the higher levels. (No it's wasn't a fire hazard and yes probably should have it's on dedicated circuit regardless.)

But rattling blinds doesn't mean a receiver is better than the others, but when you get to that level and the sound is clear and not separated, for me it does for what I want to accomplish.

For my biases, I can purchase whatever I want but still prefer a value over anything and don't like overpaying for a brand or marketing hype so going into this, my bias was towards the Integra 5.4 and the Denon 6700 which I actually ordered and what I was going to pick between. Just so happened the 1140 came in and they just asked me to try it and at 4k, no intention of buying it and my assumptions were exactly what you're stating. Starting to wish I would have never brought it home and you would be 100%, I couldn't really tell that much difference in all the rest.

I would agree, between the Denon, Integra, I'd go with the Integra because not a difference for me or now I'd stay with the Onkyo between any of these 3 as there isn't much of a difference for me if any and I'll go with the better value. Just odd what I'm dealing with going through a dedicated amp and if this is good as it get with an amp, will just go with a cheaper amp for now.

I didn't have REW installed at the time and when testing just pushed the receivers until the audio started breaking down. I reached that with all of but the Anthem, when the shades started rattling and lights started dimly noticeably in sources with a lot of bass, I stopped with it. But even at lower volume levels, the lows were pretty much non existent except with the 1140. (But that can be addressed with the subs I have now.)

Could it be my room, my speakers etc, it very well could. Also, the only point to continue down this path is I'm hoping somebody who has experienced with the 1140 what I'm describing can offer some suggestions because I don't care for the Anthem's website to manage it, the HDMI issue, support is not easy to reach etc.

How I would rate them by my listening experience AUDIO only.

Anthem
Integra
Onkyo/Denon (I could put all these 3 together)
Yamaha A8A (Lack of low, sound stage issues)
(You're correct on all but the 1140, you could throw a blanket over them and in a blind test, minus the lack of hardly any lows in the Yamaha probably couldn't tell a difference.)

How I would rate them accounting for apps, configuration, HDMI Support, value.
Onkyo (Because of cost)
Integra (Because of cost compared to Onkyo)
Denon 6700 (Because it has HDMI 2.1 120hz)
Anthem 1140 (Hdmi, apps, cost)
Yamaha A8A (There may have been something wrong with the unit or new firmware, because I liked this one on paper and how it was built)

If you have something that can bring produce the lows as well as produce good mid's and highs out of the JBL 500 series speakers I have, I would LOVE to try it because for me, the Anthem is a no go even as much as I like the sound profile. Personally I'd like to be done with this endeavor and not read another thread about speakers or receiver for another 15 years if ever. haha

I'm sending this amp back and either find something which will mate up with with the Onkyo, get a couple channel amp and just live with what I have and hope some more options without HDMI issues come out in the near future. Or open to return the Onkyo and try another receiver but outside of the Marantz, not really what else there is to try without going up in price a lot.

Thank you everyone for the input. Going forward just looking for recommendations on an AVR or AVR/Amp combo to look into for this conversation.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Think probably took a minute to swap cables out, maybe two but it seems you are only using hearing as your only criteria and that wasn't all that was involved. I understand the point your trying to make and in 99.9% of the time, I really don't notice much different with speakers, receivers etc.

When one receiver actually brings out the lows of a speaker set, literally you can see blinds rattling at certain sound levels with one out of the box, you can adjust bass all the way up on the others and never get the full range of sound through just the speakers. It was pretty drastic and I probably have your same perception if I didn't experience it for myself. You can literally feel the lows to where the recliner feels like it's vibrating at high levels.

With anything with bass, like Hotel California, cranked up it was literally a light show which tells me the unit has a beefier power supply producing a lot of power and possibly explains why the sound profile didn't seem to separate at the higher levels. (No it's wasn't a fire hazard and yes probably should have it's on dedicated circuit regardless.)

But rattling blinds doesn't mean a receiver is better than the others, but when you get to that level and the sound is clear and not separated, for me it does for what I want to accomplish.

For my biases, I can purchase whatever I want but still prefer a value over anything and don't like overpaying for a brand or marketing hype so going into this, my bias was towards the Integra 5.4 and the Denon 6700 which I actually ordered and what I was going to pick between. Just so happened the 1140 came in and they just asked me to try it and at 4k, no intention of buying it and my assumptions were exactly what you're stating. Starting to wish I would have never brought it home and you would be 100%, I couldn't really tell that much difference in all the rest.

I would agree, between the Denon, Integra, I'd go with the Integra because not a difference for me or now I'd stay with the Onkyo between any of these 3 as there isn't much of a difference for me if any and I'll go with the better value. Just odd what I'm dealing with going through a dedicated amp and if this is good as it get with an amp, will just go with a cheaper amp for now.

I didn't have REW installed at the time and when testing just pushed the receivers until the audio started breaking down. I reached that with all of but the Anthem, when the shades started rattling and lights started dimly noticeably in sources with a lot of bass, I stopped with it. But even at lower volume levels, the lows were pretty much non existent except with the 1140. (But that can be addressed with the subs I have now.)

Could it be my room, my speakers etc, it very well could. Also, the only point to continue down this path is I'm hoping somebody who has experienced with the 1140 what I'm describing can offer some suggestions because I don't care for the Anthem's website to manage it, the HDMI issue, support is not easy to reach etc.

How I would rate them by my listening experience AUDIO only.

Anthem
Integra
Onkyo/Denon (I could put all these 3 together)
Yamaha A8A (Lack of low, sound stage issues)
(You're correct on all but the 1140, you could throw a blanket over them and in a blind test, minus the lack of hardly any lows in the Yamaha probably couldn't tell a difference.)

How I would rate them accounting for apps, configuration, HDMI Support, value.
Onkyo (Because of cost)
Integra (Because of cost compared to Onkyo)
Denon 6700 (Because it has HDMI 2.1 120hz)
Anthem 1140 (Hdmi, apps, cost)
Yamaha A8A (There may have been something wrong with the unit or new firmware, because I liked this one on paper and how it was built)

If you have something that can bring produce the lows as well as produce good mid's and highs out of the JBL 500 series speakers I have, I would LOVE to try it because for me, the Anthem is a no go even as much as I like the sound profile. Personally I'd like to be done with this endeavor and not read another thread about speakers or receiver for another 15 years if ever. haha

I'm sending this amp back and either find something which will mate up with with the Onkyo, get a couple channel amp and just live with what I have and hope some more options without HDMI issues come out in the near future. Or open to return the Onkyo and try another receiver but outside of the Marantz, not really what else there is to try without going up in price a lot.

Thank you everyone for the input. Going forward just looking for recommendations on an AVR or AVR/Amp combo to look into for this conversation.
Interesting anecdote. I think you're spending far too much time screwing around with the pre/amp thing....but if you enjoy it or sometimes convince yourself of results with such bias-heavy comparison methods, go for it.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Think probably took a minute to swap cables out, maybe two but it seems you are only using hearing as your only criteria and that wasn't all that was involved. I understand the point your trying to make and in 99.9% of the time, I really don't notice much different with speakers, receivers etc.

When one receiver actually brings out the lows of a speaker set, literally you can see blinds rattling at certain sound levels with one out of the box, you can adjust bass all the way up on the others and never get the full range of sound through just the speakers. It was pretty drastic and I probably have your same perception if I didn't experience it for myself. You can literally feel the lows to where the recliner feels like it's vibrating at high levels.

With anything with bass, like Hotel California, cranked up it was literally a light show which tells me the unit has a beefier power supply producing a lot of power and possibly explains why the sound profile didn't seem to separate at the higher levels. (No it's wasn't a fire hazard and yes probably should have it's on dedicated circuit regardless.)

But rattling blinds doesn't mean a receiver is better than the others, but when you get to that level and the sound is clear and not separated, for me it does for what I want to accomplish.

For my biases, I can purchase whatever I want but still prefer a value over anything and don't like overpaying for a brand or marketing hype so going into this, my bias was towards the Integra 5.4 and the Denon 6700 which I actually ordered and what I was going to pick between. Just so happened the 1140 came in and they just asked me to try it and at 4k, no intention of buying it and my assumptions were exactly what you're stating. Starting to wish I would have never brought it home and you would be 100%, I couldn't really tell that much difference in all the rest.

I would agree, between the Denon, Integra, I'd go with the Integra because not a difference for me or now I'd stay with the Onkyo between any of these 3 as there isn't much of a difference for me if any and I'll go with the better value. Just odd what I'm dealing with going through a dedicated amp and if this is good as it get with an amp, will just go with a cheaper amp for now.

I didn't have REW installed at the time and when testing just pushed the receivers until the audio started breaking down. I reached that with all of but the Anthem, when the shades started rattling and lights started dimly noticeably in sources with a lot of bass, I stopped with it. But even at lower volume levels, the lows were pretty much non existent except with the 1140. (But that can be addressed with the subs I have now.)

Could it be my room, my speakers etc, it very well could. Also, the only point to continue down this path is I'm hoping somebody who has experienced with the 1140 what I'm describing can offer some suggestions because I don't care for the Anthem's website to manage it, the HDMI issue, support is not easy to reach etc.

How I would rate them by my listening experience AUDIO only.

Anthem
Integra
Onkyo/Denon (I could put all these 3 together)
Yamaha A8A (Lack of low, sound stage issues)
(You're correct on all but the 1140, you could throw a blanket over them and in a blind test, minus the lack of hardly any lows in the Yamaha probably couldn't tell a difference.)

How I would rate them accounting for apps, configuration, HDMI Support, value.
Onkyo (Because of cost)
Integra (Because of cost compared to Onkyo)
Denon 6700 (Because it has HDMI 2.1 120hz)
Anthem 1140 (Hdmi, apps, cost)
Yamaha A8A (There may have been something wrong with the unit or new firmware, because I liked this one on paper and how it was built)

If you have something that can bring produce the lows as well as produce good mid's and highs out of the JBL 500 series speakers I have, I would LOVE to try it because for me, the Anthem is a no go even as much as I like the sound profile. Personally I'd like to be done with this endeavor and not read another thread about speakers or receiver for another 15 years if ever. haha

I'm sending this amp back and either find something which will mate up with with the Onkyo, get a couple channel amp and just live with what I have and hope some more options without HDMI issues come out in the near future. Or open to return the Onkyo and try another receiver but outside of the Marantz, not really what else there is to try without going up in price a lot.

Thank you everyone for the input. Going forward just looking for recommendations on an AVR or AVR/Amp combo to look into for this conversation.
First of all, just a few bullet points:

- Hotel California does have some strong bass, quality of the recording is much more important than quality of amplifiers. Even my desktop system can produce satisfactory bass and there is no reason why the Yamaha RX-A8A could not deliver the bass in that recording. I have only ever own one Yamaha AVR but based on their specs and measurements, there is no way the MRX1140 can do better in bass. @AcuDefTechGuy is experienced with Yamaha as he has their AVRs as well as an AVC, I am sure he will tell you his Yamaha units "sound" as good as his previously own separates, let alone AVRs of any brands.

- I would like to trust your findings that the MRX sounded so much better at higher volume, but the published specs and bench measurements simply did not support that at all. The X6700H and A8A you compared with the 1140 have very similar rated output into 8 and 4 ohms (within 1 dB or so..) under 2 channel driven conditions and the Denon did much better (still less than 2 dB or so..) in 5 or 7 channel conditions.

- If you search for users reviews you will find that any of the 3 units mentioned have their supporters who praised their "sound quality", such subjective reviews on forums are not reliable, almost meaningless in some ways. So who do we believe? The problem is, such reviews (especially those written by professional reviews) might have biased their users, who, combined with the effects of manufacturers marketing information would then have a preconceived notion that one of those on their initial short list would indeed "sound" as described by what they have previously read on the internet. Once that's (the preconceived..) there, any sighted tests would likely be meaningless.

- Unless I misunderstood some of your points, you seemed to have said that at lower spl, they didn't sound much different (if at all?), except at higher level (you mentioned reference level..), there was a big difference. If that's the case, I would say you were pushing the other units pass their clipping point and that would render such a test invalid because at such high level distortions could/would increase rapidly. You should have cranked the 1140 further and find out how many more click (usually 1 or 0.5 dB per click) on the volume dial would make the Anthem sounded bas too. That would at least tell us if Anthem has some sort of soft clipping feature and that may answer your question of why a similarly not more powerful unit could sound better than the other two at high output levels.

- I have not auditioned an Anthem unit recently but in the past I have compared two Denon AVRs with my separate preamp/amps (including an Anthem power amp) and there was no audible difference found in my comparison listening at low to moderately loud level. That's expected, based on specs and measurements, so again it is not that I don't believe your findings but if you too, must believe in science and engineering, so I think you would agree that there has to be some correlation between subjective and objective measurements. And if not, then it is time to find out what could have caused such significant discrepancies.

Anthem happens to be one audio manufacturers who, on the often hyped up "sound signature related myth" have stated the following in their FAQ section:

None of our components are designed with a "sonic flavor" other than playing exactly what's in a recording. Unfortunately with pop CD mastering, pushing levels way into overload regardless of how much distortion this adds is all too common. Recordings of acoustic instruments with minimal or no processing during mastering sound more natural, therefore they are a much better test of how natural-sounding the playback equipment is.
So as I mentioned before, if you actually heard such major difference in your comparison listening session then I think most of us who responded so far who like to hear back from on the following:

1) Did you listen in direct, or pure direct mode and make sure that there was no sound processing (including room corrections) in use?

2) Did you level match all of them to within 0.5 dB spl from your mlp?

3) Was the exact same media content and media player used?

4) Did you use the same interconnects and speaker cables (iirc, you did imply same speaker cables on banana plugs)?

5) As someone asked before, what's the time delay between switching from one AVR to the other? You did say 1 to 2 minutes, but would that be the total delay between one stop making sound to the other taking over and at the same level, that is, all adjustment time included?

If the answers to all of the above are affirmative, there shouldn't be much audible difference even if the tests were done sighted, and you would almost certainly be not discernible if the tests were done "blind".

Regardless, I agree with HD 100%, in the end you only have to convince yourself. So if you are convinced your findings were totally valid then you need to find some good reasons not to go with the MRX 1140, otherwise, as you said, go for it!

In reality though, between those 3 (6700, A8A, 1140), and objectively speaking only, the deciding factors appear to be features , perceived reliability and customer support based on track records. Trying to determine, or rationalize which one "sounds better", is, in my opinion, a waste of time, especially if based mainly on anecdotal findings from others or even your own, unless you are sure you did some truly apples to apples comparisons.
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
First of all, just a few bullet points:

- Hotel California does have some strong bass, quality of the recording is much more important than quality of amplifiers. Even my desktop system can produce satisfactory bass and there is no reason why the Yamaha RX-A8A could not deliver the bass in that recording. I have only ever own one Yamaha AVR but based on their specs and measurements, there is no way the MRX1140 can do better in bass. @AcuDefTechGuy is experienced with Yamaha as he has their AVRs as well as an AVC, I am sure he will tell you his Yamaha units "sound" as good as his previously own separates, let alone AVRs of any brands.

- I would like to trust your findings that the MRX sounded so much better at higher volume, but the published specs and bench measurements simply did not support that at all. The X6700H and A8A you compared with the 1140 have very similar rated output into 8 and 4 ohms (within 1 dB or so..) under 2 channel driven conditions and the Denon did much better (still less than 2 dB or so..) in 5 or 7 channel conditions.

- If you search for users reviews you will find that any of the 3 units mentioned have their supporters who praised their "sound quality", such subjective reviews on forums are not reliable, almost meaningless in some ways. So who do we believe? The problem is, such reviews (especially those written by professional reviews) might have biased their users, who, combined with the effects of manufacturers marketing information would then have a preconceived notion that one of those on their initial short list would indeed "sound" as described by what they have previously read on the internet. Once that's (the preconceived..) there, any sighted tests would likely be meaningless.

- Unless I misunderstood some of your points, you seemed to have said that at lower spl, they didn't sound much different (if at all?), except at higher level (you mentioned reference level..), there was a big difference. If that's the case, I would say you were pushing the other units pass their clipping point and that would render such a test invalid because at such high level distortions could/would increase rapidly. You should have cranked the 1140 further and find out how many more click (usually 1 or 0.5 dB per click) on the volume dial would make the Anthem sounded bas too. That would at least tell us if Anthem has some sort of soft clipping feature and that may answer your question of why a similarly not more powerful unit could sound better than the other two at high output levels.

- I have not auditioned an Anthem unit recently but in the past I have compared two Denon AVRs with my separate preamp/amps (including an Anthem power amp) and there was no audible difference found in my comparison listening at low to moderately loud level. That's expected, based on specs and measurements, so again it is not that I don't believe your findings but if you too, must believe in science and engineering, so I think you would agree that there has to be some correlation between subjective and objective measurements. And if not, then it is time to find out what could have caused such significant discrepancies.

Anthem happens to be one audio manufacturers who, on the often hyped up "sound signature related myth" have stated the following in their FAQ section:



So as I mentioned before, if you actually heard such major difference in your comparison listening session then I think most of us who responded so far who like to hear back from on the following:

1) Did you listen in direct, or pure direct mode and make sure that there was no sound processing (including room corrections) in use?

2) Did you level match all of them to within 0.5 dB spl from your mlp?

3) Was the exact same media content and media player used?

4) Did you use the same interconnects and speaker cables (iirc, you did imply same speaker cables on banana plugs)?

5) As someone asked before, what's the time delay between switching from one AVR to the other? You did say 1 to 2 minutes, but would that be the total delay between one stop making sound to the other taking over and at the same level, that is, all adjustment time included?

If the answers to all of the above are affirmative, there shouldn't be much audible difference even if the tests were done sighted, and you would almost certainly be not discernible if the tests were done "blind".

Regardless, I agree with HD 100%, in the end you only have to convince yourself. So if you are convinced your findings were totally valid then you need to find some good reasons not to go with the MRX 1140, otherwise, as you said, go for it!

In reality though, between those 3 (6700, A8A, 1140), and objectively speaking only, the deciding factors appear to be features , perceived reliability and customer support based on track records. Trying to determine, or rationalize which one "sounds better", is, in my opinion, a waste of time, especially if based mainly on anecdotal findings from others or even your own, unless you are sure you did some truly apples to apples comparisons.
Oh yeah, ”Hotel California“ (HC) has tremendous amount of bass. That’s one reason I’ve always used HC to audition speakers.

And I hear tremendous amount of bass when playing HC on both Denon and Yamaha AVRs and Pre-pros.

If people don’t hear tremendous amount of bass and clarity and soundstage and imaging on Yamaha or Denon AVR and AVP, it is because they NEED BETTER LOUDSPEAKERS, not AVR, AVP or Amps.

It’s like a WEEKLY sermon we preach - other than the original SOURCE, the speakers/subwoofers make the biggest difference in sound quality, not the AVR/AVP/Amps.

If we made a $1 every time…. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Oh yeah, ”Hotel California“ (HC) has tremendous amount of bass. That’s one reason I’ve always used HC to audition speakers.

And I hear tremendous amount of bass when playing HC on both Denon and Yamaha AVRs and Pre-pros.

If people don’t hear tremendous amount of bass and clarity and soundstage and imaging on Yamaha or Denon AVR and AVP, it is because they NEED BETTER LOUDSPEAKERS, not AVR, AVP or Amps.

It’s like a WEEKLY sermon we preach - other than the original SOURCE, the speakers/subwoofers make the biggest difference in sound quality, not the AVR/AVP/Amps.

If we made a $1 every time…. :D
Thank you for responding, but you might have missed the part where he stated the (highlighted part) following:

For example, I never thought about Hotel California having much bass. The Anthem straight out of the box, you crank it up, to -15 to -11 literally you can feel the bass but mids and highs all stay together. (Integra isn't isn't in the same price range or specs and I liked the unit, I would probably have went with it if there wasn't a hmm through the HDMI just because I like the built in apps and was hoping to pair with a decent amp and have it suffice but store didn't have another one to see if the one I had was just defective.)

Had somebody indicate they tested a Yamaha A8A which specs are more and per their ears they felt it was slightly better than the Anthem. It is a nice unit but hardly any bass and tried turning the bass up as much as I could.
So in this case I am sure it's not the speakers/subwoofers, assuming he knows well enough that such comparisons would have been meaningless if different speakers/subwoofers were used with the AVRs compared.

He said he was puzzled, and me too, naturally!:D:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Thank you for responding, but you might have missed the part where he stated the (highlighted part) following:



So in this case I am sure it's not the speakers/subwoofers, assuming he knows well enough that such comparisons would have been meaningless if different speakers/subwoofers were used with the AVRs compared.

He said he was puzzled, and me too, naturally!:D:D
No, I stopped reading long before that. Haha. :D

It’s like you heard it once, you heard it all. :D
 
B

BlackSpider777

Audiophyte
Hi All,
I am replacing my Arcam AVR550 to an Anthem MRX740 or 1140. I got a 5.2.2 setup with B&W 700 series speakers & 2 Rel subwoofers. The Fronts will be powered by a Stereo Integrated through HT Bypass so only need the Internal avr amps for center, surrounds & heights.

The center channel is the Beefier B&W HTM71s2 & the surrounds are the B&W 707s2 bookshelves while the Height channels are the B&W M1s(satellite speakers). I wonder if the 1140 would be better for my setup then the 740? I don't need the extra channels but wonder if the toroidal transformer in the 1140 will make the difference in my setup?

Thanks.
 

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