Anthem MRX 740 vs Marantz Cinema 50?

[lovinthehd]

In what manner do the Arcams sound "better"....or is it just different? Any measurements to bear out subjective impressions?

 

[PENG]

Definitely is personal preference, I just had the opportunity to try a denon 3800 and 4800. They sounded no different than denon 4700. I compared them to different avrs I use in my home including a arcam avr21, arcam avr10 and a denon 4700. Hdmi switching are all similar, on screen display is better on denon. Big for me is how they sound, and the arcam sounds better with zero eq than the denon 3800, 4800 or 4700. After dirac on the arcams, they get even better. Hopefully the dirac upgrade on these denon and marantz will help and I’m hopeful. I still think the denons are nice products, but I’d probably look at the following.

Onkyo rz50
Integra drx 5.4
Pioneer elite 505
Arcam avr11

I’d definitely would like to try the Marantz Cinema line but they sell so fast. My local guy is having a tough time keeping in stock, but my guess is it’s very similar to denon.

Last anthem I had was avm60 around 6 years ago maybe and it was a nice product. Definitely would like to try newer line in the future, but it’ll have a tough time replacing my arcam. I’m always open to an upgrade though.

If we are to compare base on subjective measurements, may be we should start by comparing their design philosophy.

Marantz marketing is very good at what they are doing (or writing..). Anthem basically says theirs don't have sound signatures.

From Anthem website:

Do the amps have a warm sound or a bright sound?

None of our components are designed with a "sonic flavor" other than playing exactly what's in a recording. Unfortunately with pop CD mastering, pushing levels way into overload regardless of how much distortion this adds is all too common. Recordings of acoustic instruments with minimal or no processing during mastering sound more natural, therefore they are a much better test of how natural-sounding the playback equipment is.
Are they better suited for music or for movies?
Sound reproduction equipment doesn't know the difference between a music signal and a movie signal, or for

that matter the musical score within a movie soundtrack. Accurate for one means accurate for the other.

Marantz basically says the opposite, and they are smart to give potential fans the reasons, such as the HDAMs, gold plated rca connectors, use of their "soundmasters" etc..

Those who are not technically inclined would buy into the "reasons" provided and would therefore likely to hear the kind of warm, musical, or whatever "sound" they Marantz skillfully planted the seeds in their heads.

Musical sound isn't confined to music playback alone. The qualities and attributes of the signature Marantz sound are compelling when creating Home Theatre and movie experiences.

Making sound the Marantz way is a seamless fusion of art and science, practised by artisanal creators who balance and select components individually for their sonic qualities - they are the Sound Masters, the magicians.

Saul Marantz original acoustic philosophy to get the listener as close to the music as possible remains our mission today. Acoustic artisans create, tune and develop the warm, enveloping, detailed and spacious Marantz sound loved all over the world.

And, on Marantz HDAM

Making amplifiers quieter, more efficient, and ever more musical since 1992.

It's in their nature for Marantz sound engineers to be constantly looking to improve music technology, and that’s how Saul would have wanted it to be.

So when they couldn’t find a solution to the background noise emitted by traditional operational amplifiers, they took it upon themselves to create one.

Hyper-Dynamic Amplifier Modules are that solution – a combination of exquisite craftsmanship and cutting-edge circuity – and one of Marantz most ingenious inventions to date.

That reminds me of PS Audio, Audio Quest, Bose etc.

Okay Marantz, I am only joking and have supported Marantz over the year, so please don't write me up.

 

[kmidst]

Yeah that Marantz quote definitely uses the flowery language, where as the Anthem quote is very no-BS. I really wanted to like the Anthem, but unfortunately I just couldn't stomach dealing with the video bugs when the unit's price was already so much higher.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

To me the Marantz styling is a lot more visually appealing, so I would lean that way.

I think aesthetics might be the #1 factor for many people, including myself. Of course, other factors are important- as long as the component looks great.

Yeah that Marantz quote definitely uses the flowery language, where as the Anthem quote is very no-BS. I really wanted to like the Anthem, but unfortunately I just couldn't stomach dealing with the video bugs when the unit's price was already so much higher.

Here, compatibility/functionality/reliability and support are the salient factors.

If we are to compare base on subjective measurements, may be we should start by comparing their design philosophy.

Marantz marketing is very good at what they are doing (or writing..). Anthem basically says theirs don't have sound signatures.

From Anthem website:
that matter the musical score within a movie soundtrack. Accurate for one means accurate for the other.

Marantz basically says the opposite, and they are smart to give potential fans the reasons, such as the HDAMs, gold plated rca connectors, use of their "soundmasters" etc..

Those who are not technically inclined would buy into the "reasons" provided and would therefore likely to hear the kind of warm, musical, or whatever "sound" they Marantz skillfully planted the seeds in their heads.





And, on Marantz HDAM



That reminds me of PS Audio, Audio Quest, Bose etc.

Okay Marantz, I am only joking and have supported Marantz over the year, so please don't write me up.

Well, we’re just saying like it is and having fun .

I love Yamaha, but they do have some funny business marketing also.

Bottom line, we buy because it has the price we’re willing to pay and the factors we want.

 

[PENG]

I think aesthetics might be the #1 factor for many people, including myself. Of course, other factors are important- as long as the component looks great.


Well, we’re just saying like it is and having fun .

I love Yamaha, but they do have some funny business marketing also.

Bottom line, we buy because it has the price we’re willing to pay and the factors we want.

They all do, and did you notice that none of them have ever shown any measurable metric as evidence? It is easy to just say it though, and can even claim others who didn't hear it were because......%*#(!..

For example, some gurus might have posted something about how the 2nd harmonics were the reason of warm, or musical sound, yet the famous Marantz, or NAD, HK warm sound never show much of 2nd harmonics. In fact, measurements show Denon has more 2nd harmonics then 3rd, whereas Marantz showed the opposite, and both (their recent AVRs) showed T (total) HD, well below 0.1% that we thought might not even be audible.

 

[Golfx]

I noticed on ASR thread where it looks like the newer Marantz models let you disconnect amps by channel (not all or none) when using the pre-outs—similar to what the Denon A110 and 8500 allowed.

 

[CB22]

Hi: Trying to decide between the following choices..... Marantz Cinema 50 or Anthem 740 4K(ver)....speakers are as follows..Paradigm Premier 800F's & Center is 600C,surrounds are Axiom QS8's,Atmos speaker. Polk OWN3's, Sub is a older paradigm DSP 3100. room is approx. 2400 cubic feet. Usage is 55 HT to 45 Music....thinking the Anthem is the best choice...but reading it seems to be a bit more "buggy". Thanks for helping me decide sorry if has been asked before.

I have very occasional issues on my MRX 720. There is a really loud digital distortion when the TV is first turned on or the input switch. It's on the most recent firmware but the issue still persists. I happens about once every six months. I find it ridiculous considering on how much I paid for the AVR and my hand me down 10 year old Denon AVR does not have this issue. I don't down much about the Marantz Cinema 50, however, in some cases the bigger the company, the better; they have a larger team to work out all the issues.

 

[ANTHONY12345]

So doe

Thank you for your advice. Ultimately I just want to purchase a quality AVR that sounds great for movies and music. I agree that it really comes down to personal taste as most receivers sound good.

So if the deno

Definitely is personal preference, I just had the opportunity to try a denon 3800 and 4800. They sounded no different than denon 4700. I compared them to different avrs I use in my home including a arcam avr21, arcam avr10 and a denon 4700. Hdmi switching are all similar, on screen display is better on denon. Big for me is how they sound, and the arcam sounds better with zero eq than the denon 3800, 4800 or 4700. After dirac on the arcams, they get even better. Hopefully the dirac upgrade on these denon and marantz will help and I’m hopeful. I still think the denons are nice products, but I’d probably look at the following.

Onkyo rz50
Integra drx 5.4
Pioneer elite 505
Arcam avr11

I’d definitely would like to try the Marantz Cinema line but they sell so fast. My local guy is having a tough time keeping in stock, but my guess is it’s very similar to denon.

Last anthem I had was avm60 around 6 years ago maybe and it was a nice product. Definitely would like to try newer line in the future, but it’ll have a tough time replacing my arcam. I’m always open to an upgrade though.

So I had the 3800 and it sound terrible for music but really nice with tv and movies so I switched to cinema 50 and it's great for music but lacks that movie theatre feeling for me. So was the 4700(probably similar to 4800 sound stage) great for movies and music if so I may switch out for the x4800 which is same exact price as cinema 50?

 

[lovinthehd]

So doe

So if the deno

So I had the 3800 and it sound terrible for music but really nice with tv and movies so I switched to cinema 50 and it's great for music but lacks that movie theatre feeling for me. So was the 4700(probably similar to 4800 sound stage) great for movies and music if so I may switch out for the x4800 which is same exact price as cinema 50?

What is it particularly, or what settings you used, that caused this weird dichotomy between different types of audio as to how they sound particularly?

 

[ANTHONY12345]

So doe

So if the deno

So I had the 3800 and it sound terrible for music but really nice with tv and movies so I switched to cinema 50 and it's great for music but lacks that movie theatre feeling for me. So was the 4700(probably similar to 4800 sound stage) great for movies and music if so I may switch out for the x4800 which is same exact price as cinema 50?

I guess I could have simplified this question by asking did you enjoy listening to music with the denon 4700?

 

[lovinthehd]

Doing so at the moment actually. Playing some Jeff Beck (Live at Ronnie Scott's) in tribute.....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have very occasional issues on my MRX 720. There is a really loud digital distortion when the TV is first turned on or the input switch. It's on the most recent firmware but the issue still persists. I happens about once every six months. I find it ridiculous considering on how much I paid for the AVR and my hand me down 10 year old Denon AVR does not have this issue. I don't down much about the Marantz Cinema 50, however, in some cases the bigger the company, the better; they have a larger team to work out all the issues.

That’s one thing that’s been said often - bigger companies have more resources than smaller companies so the bigger companies can do more R&D and support. There’s probably a fancy business term for that.

Another thing is that bigger companies can sell more and so they can keep prices lower (economy of scale).

 

[Timforhifi]

4700 and 4800 are good at both music and movies. 3800 sounded very similar and overall I see no reason to upgrade past that model for running 11 channels. The 3800 and 4800 will even do 5.1.6 now which in some rooms is useful.

in my personal preference I can hear the difference in certain avrs or processors. For example the bass on arcam avr21 is much more together. Faster, flatter and much louder response. Running rew denon 4700 or 4800 in that room plays from 8-100hz within 3db and max output hits 114-116db. Then I switch to arcam and still have 8-100hz within 5db but I’m hitting 125-130db max output from 20-100hz, from 8-20hz it’s 114-118db. So much louder dynamics with the arcam. The arcam surround and heights are much more alive and louder. Dialogue on denon and arcam are full and rich, no complaints there. Watching Elvis was very different changing rooms mid movie. Went from theater with arcam to denon 4800 in my bedroom. On arcam every photographer crack from the arcam was suspenseful and dynamic, you could feel the stress he was under. The denon had dynamics but not even close to same crack of the bulb. Now I did switch from an arcam with nad m28 powered room driving canton vento speakers and two Rythmik fv18pc, 7.2.6. Our bedroom is just an avr, denon 4800(at that moment) canton chrono SL 5.1 setup with svs sb3000. Still great dynamics in that room even with a smaller sealed sub.

I could give many more experiences I’ve had comparing but it’s really just my opinion. I know some believe every avr sounds the same but it’s not my experience.

I would be happy with the denon in a casual family room environment and even ok in a dedicated room if budget was a concern. If you want better sound quality it just costs more. If you compare five $1600 to $2500 avrs they’ll all have more similarities than differences. Comparing a $3100 arcam avr11 or $4700 arcam avr21 isn’t comparable to a denon 3800, 4800 or 4700.

also earlier someone mentioned the different preamp controls. On 3800 and 4800 you can turn on or off any preamp output of your choice or do full preamp mode, just like a110. Denon 4700 can’t do that, 3800 is the better buy with 4 sub outputs, preamp control, future dirac, bass actuator mode, full hdmi 2.1 gaming options on all inputs and outputs and probably more upgrades that I’m missing. 4700 just has a little more power, which won’t be enough for a reference theater driving more than 5 speakers. So an amp will be wanted with more demanding speakers played at higher levels.

 

[PENG]

Now I did switch from an arcam with nad m28 powered room driving canton vento speakers and two Rythmik fv18pc, 7.2.6. Our bedroom is just an avr, denon 4800(at that moment) canton chrono SL 5.1 setup with svs sb3000. Still great dynamics in that room even with a smaller sealed sub.

I could give many more experiences I’ve had comparing but it’s really just my opinion. I know some believe every avr sounds the same but it’s not my experience.

We are not going to have the same kind of experience because everyone will do their comparisons differently, and most often not a real side by side AB, let alone doing it blind.

In your case, the experience you described above, if I understand right, was not even a controlled comparison because other things have changed, not just the AVR.

That being said, I do believe different AVRs likely will sound audibly different with movies. I say that not because I think people actually heard the difference or not but because there are much more variables that support it is not realistic to expect they will sound exactly the same. For those who heard difference between comparable Denon and Marantz AVRs, especially when they say Marantz's better for music and Denon better for movies, they were most likely under the influence of hearsay and marketing material, that resulted in expectation bias. There are no convincing technical reasons for such claimed audible differences as the two share so much of the parts and circuitry and measurements show they should sound the same under the same conditions, to humans with normal hearing anyway.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

All bets are off when it comes to subjective comparison opinions.

Furthermore, often times every AVR is set up differently. For example, I set up my Denon AVR /AVP differently than my Yamaha AVR/AVP. I also set up my Yamaha CX-A5100 (HT Room) differently than my Yamaha RX-A3080 (Family Room).

And then, of course, the usual level-matching condition for comparison.

 

[Timforhifi]

We are not going to have the same kind of experience because everyone will do their comparisons differently, and most often not a real side by side AB, let alone doing it blind.

In your case, the experience you described above, if I understand right, was not even a controlled comparison because other things have changed, not just the AVR.

That being said, I do believe different AVRs likely will sound audibly different with movies. I say that not because I think people actually heard the difference or not but because there are much more variables that support it is not realistic to expect they will sound exactly the same. For those who heard difference between comparable Denon and Marantz AVRs, especially when they say Marantz's better for music and Denon better for movies, they were most likely under the influence of hearsay and marketing material, that resulted in expectation bias. There are no convincing technical reasons for such claimed audible differences as the two share so much of the parts and circuitry and measurements show they should sound the same under the same conditions, to humans with normal hearing anyway.

I did have denon 3800 and 4800 in the theater room for around a month. I was just using that one experience of switching rooms as an example. All I can really give is a subjective experience as it was my experience. Really that’s all any of us can do after hearing a setup and even analyzing rew. I’m not doing blind testing any longer with groups of friends. Most of my local audiophiles that I’ve shared get togethers and demos have moved on from the hobby or just don’t care anymore. I’d like to see an article on that explaining why so many people abandon this hobby after 5-10 years. Maybe money? Maybe time? Maybe frustration with always trying to get to next level? Maybe the constant beat down of people telling you how it should sound? In the end I believe your display can be fully calibrated but you need to enjoy the way it looks. Same goes for audio, it can be ruler flat, in well treated room and you hate the way it sounds.

I like to take the approach, it’s all about having fun. Trying multiple avrs, speakers and subs. It’s the best way you’ll know what you liked. If the denon doesn’t do it for you try a marantz. If they don’t excite you try another product. In the end the end user needs to be excited and happy to use his setup or they too will fade away from this hobby.

 

[lovinthehd]

I did have denon 3800 and 4800 in the theater room for around a month. I was just using that one experience of switching rooms as an example. All I can really give is a subjective experience as it was my experience. Really that’s all any of us can do after hearing a setup and even analyzing rew. I’m not doing blind testing any longer with groups of friends. Most of my local audiophiles that I’ve shared get togethers and demos have moved on from the hobby or just don’t care anymore. I’d like to see an article on that explaining why so many people abandon this hobby after 5-10 years. Maybe money? Maybe time? Maybe frustration with always trying to get to next level? Maybe the constant beat down of people telling you how it should sound? In the end I believe your display can be fully calibrated but you need to enjoy the way it looks. Same goes for audio, it can be ruler flat, in well treated room and you hate the way it sounds.

I like to take the approach, it’s all about having fun. Trying multiple avrs, speakers and subs. It’s the best way you’ll know what you liked. If the denon doesn’t do it for you try a marantz. If they don’t excite you try another product. In the end the end user needs to be excited and happy to use his setup or they too will fade away from this hobby.

I have known very few friends that were into chasing gear, let alone doing measurements etc to set it up. Some I know are still are passionate about the music, but not the gear so much. Lot of nonsense spouted about audio from the sales side of things does get tiresome, tho. Like the "sound" of modern electronics, not something that I've noticed particularly. I don't hear differences out of electronics like you seem to, particularly avrs....that goes for pre-amps and amps, too...as long as they are fit for purpose (and no tubes either) they work for me....while I may want to listen to a particular recording or watch a particular movie....I don't think in terms of seeking to listen/watch on particular combos of gear....maybe the speakers/sub combo in a particular room.

 

[ANTHONY12345]

4700 and 4800 are good at both music and movies. 3800 sounded very similar and overall I see no reason to upgrade past that model for running 11 channels. The 3800 and 4800 will even do 5.1.6 now which in some rooms is useful.

in my personal preference I can hear the difference in certain avrs or processors. For example the bass on arcam avr21 is much more together. Faster, flatter and much louder response. Running rew denon 4700 or 4800 in that room plays from 8-100hz within 3db and max output hits 114-116db. Then I switch to arcam and still have 8-100hz within 5db but I’m hitting 125-130db max output from 20-100hz, from 8-20hz it’s 114-118db. So much louder dynamics with the arcam. The arcam surround and heights are much more alive and louder. Dialogue on denon and arcam are full and rich, no complaints there. Watching Elvis was very different changing rooms mid movie. Went from theater with arcam to denon 4800 in my bedroom. On arcam every photographer crack from the arcam was suspenseful and dynamic, you could feel the stress he was under. The denon had dynamics but not even close to same crack of the bulb. Now I did switch from an arcam with nad m28 powered room driving canton vento speakers and two Rythmik fv18pc, 7.2.6. Our bedroom is just an avr, denon 4800(at that moment) canton chrono SL 5.1 setup with svs sb3000. Still great dynamics in that room even with a smaller sealed sub.

I could give many more experiences I’ve had comparing but it’s really just my opinion. I know some believe every avr sounds the same but it’s not my experience.

I would be happy with the denon in a casual family room environment and even ok in a dedicated room if budget was a concern. If you want better sound quality it just costs more. If you compare five $1600 to $2500 avrs they’ll all have more similarities than differences. Comparing a $3100 arcam avr11 or $4700 arcam avr21 isn’t comparable to a denon 3800, 4800 or 4700.

also earlier someone mentioned the different preamp controls. On 3800 and 4800 you can turn on or off any preamp output of your choice or do full preamp mode, just like a110. Denon 4700 can’t do that, 3800 is the better buy with 4 sub outputs, preamp control, future dirac, bass actuator mode, full hdmi 2.1 gaming options on all inputs and outputs and probably more upgrades that I’m missing. 4700 just has a little more power, which won’t be enough for a reference theater driving more than 5 speakers. So an amp will be wanted with more demanding speakers played at higher levels.

Thank you so much for the reply it helped a lot and I appreciate you taking the time to do so. I think that arcam av21 probably sounds amazing but that's bit of a stretch in my budget. Maybe I will look into the av11 though. I just have a question are you talking about the demon avr-x-4800h? You said you have had for a month and it was just released? Maybe you have the inside track on av though I'm just asking if this is the same unit your refering to?

 

[Timforhifi]

Thank you so much for the reply it helped a lot and I appreciate you taking the time to do so. I think that arcam av21 probably sounds amazing but that's bit of a stretch in my budget. Maybe I will look into the av11 though. I just have a question are you talking about the demon avr-x-4800h? You said you have had for a month and it was just released? Maybe you have the inside track on av though I'm just asking if this is the same unit your refering to?

Yes I’m talking about the denon 4800 that just came out. I have a close relationship with a local dealer that lets me know when new stuff comes out early. I ended up getting 3800 and 4800 at same time in early December. If you don’t need newer hdmi 2.1 the avr10 is heavily discounted new or can be found at a good deal. Used the avr 10 will be cheaper than new denon 3800 or 4700. If you want to upgrade hdmi arcam has that option. For $550 I did that to my avr10 and they went through the unit to check everything and added a warranty to it. So now my avr10 is an avr11.

 

[ANTHONY12345]

Yes I’m talking about the denon 4800 that just came out. I have a close relationship with a local dealer that lets me know when new stuff comes out early. I ended up getting 3800 and 4800 at same time in early December. If you don’t need newer hdmi 2.1 the avr10 is heavily discounted new or can be found at a good deal. Used the avr 10 will be cheaper than new denon 3800 or 4700. If you want to upgrade hdmi arcam has that option. For $550 I did that to my avr10 and they went through the unit to check everything and added a warranty to it. So now my avr10 is an avr11.

That's a good idea I will now seriously consider the arcams. Thanks again for all your help