Another budget system question

Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah mostly, I was looking at the PZ800U but today at amazon the price for a Panny is $1800 and the Sammy is $1400, is the Panny $400 better? As far as the 2030 v. 2031 I just saw that the 2031's had a 8.75 in. driver and thought that might give me better low freq. response. I am kind of assuming that they should be just as good as the 2030's, with maybe a little more "robust" sound.
The 2031's MIGHT be a lot of things. I wouldn't ASSUME anything.

I was sold on Pannys a long time ago. I got one a while ago and had my sister get a 50" PZ85U for $1500 recently. They should be less now. Just in case I didn't mention it here I also had her get 4 of the 2030's when they were on back order and the 2031's were readily available.

Does the Samsung have an unblemished burn in history as the Panasonic does?
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
The 2031's haven't rec'd the fanfare extended to the 2030's. They are as yet an unknown.

Any reason to get a Sammy over a Panny? Price?
The 31s at near the same price works. Imo the 30s have a smother mid and the upper remainds the same as does off axis response. I have mentioned that eq in the upper roll off improves the units as well as the mods mentioned. Id link but the harp and the stool prohibit
:eek:
 
L

lman

Audioholic Intern
You kind of lost me with the technical stuff there; however, I think that I'll go with the 31's. Just courious, what are the big differences between the Pio 918 and the 1017, I am getting confused. is the $60 or so difference worth it?
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Get the avr with the features you need but imo get whats in your budget that has pre outs and that way you can make an amp purchase that last for years.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
The 2030P will have superior mid-range resolution/performance and off axis response. The 2030P can actually be part of a very good quality system if used eventually with stereo subwoofers. In fact, I am the one that initially measured/inspected/analyzed these speakers. They are comparable with hi fi bookshelf speakers that cost 4-5x as much. But they don't have any useful bass response; you need to use subwoofers. The 2031 is more of a thing to use if you don't plan on ever using subwoofers. But other than it's better bass extension, it's going to be inferior for sound quality. I know these seem to cheap to be good, and I agree. But what you actually get make for an unheard of value in both parts/build quality and measured performance relative to important factors for human perception. I only know this because a friend of mine bought some and kept saying how good they were - so I bought a pair just to measure/analyze. There are some easy modifications that range in cost that can improve them a little or a lot, depending on what you ultimately want, which I can specify/explain in any depth you require if you are interested.

-Chris
 
L

lman

Audioholic Intern
That was a great explanation, thanks. When you say mod. what does that entail? And, if you were going to recomend an inexpensive sub/pair of subs that would compliment the 2030's.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
That was a great explanation, thanks. When you say mod. what does that entail?
You can apply mods that range from about $20 a pair, to $70 a pair. Considering if you spend $70, your total investment including the speakers would be $210 a pair, I HIGHLY recommend the $70 modification, as it vastly improves the speaker, substantially reducing ALL cabinet born resonances. It will not give you audibly inert cabinets, but they will have a much lower acoustic output as compared to the vast majority of speakers. These resonances are one of the main factors reducing fidelity and obscuring mid-range resolution in most speaker systems; this is why I place such emphasis on improving this characteristic.

$20 mod:

-Remove front face plate cover and drivers.

-Add in 2" of high density rockwool or high density fiberglass insulation board such as Owens Corning 705. This will provide improved internal acoustic dampening; most speakers have insufficient material and this is no exception.

-Use liquid superglue and apply generously into the crack between the magnet shield can and motor on the woofer. This joint is only crimped and has some slack, causing possible resonance/vibration at certain frequencies. The super thin glue liquid will harden deep in the crack preventing this problem.

-Use rope caulk or preferably Parts Express gasket caulk / mastic and apply between where the tweeter connects to the front face of the speaker. Simply remove the screws, place the putty like material in very thin amount on all opposing surfaces, and re-install tweeter. Use your fingernal to scrap off excess that squeezes through on front side of face around the joint. This will fix an air breach.

-Apply more rope caulk or preferably Parts express gasket caulk around the back edge of tweeter motor and it's own face plate to prevent air leak. Do not remove screws from tweeters motor and it's own face plate. Only apply externally around the edge, including around the metal wire connection terminals.

$70 mod:

-Remove face plate, drivers, crossover, wire connection terminal and internal acoustic dampening.

-Scrape out any residual glue left on walls that was holding the acoustic dampening in place using a chisel or any other suitable flat edge sharp instrument as best as you can.

-Use Peel N' Seal (one roll of 6 inch wide by 25 foot and divide between a pair of speakers) or Dynamat(not more effective - just more expensive) and apply in layers to inside walls to get a 1/8" thick - 1/4" thick layer appliled to walls. Use a hair dryer or heat gun to apply the first layer to the MDF bare walls for maximum effectiveness of adhesion.

-Clean aluminum foil side of Peel N' Seal with brake parts cleaner spray on a rag to clean off residual tar. Score aluminum surface lightly with 60-80 grit sand paper.

-Use solvent based(not water based) contact cement and apply a few coats to the aluminum side of peel 'n seal.

-Apply contact cement to one side of metal window screening material.

-Apply/press window screening material to aluminum side of peel 'n seal.

-Cut out some small pieces of cardboard and use some duct tape to make a small protective dam inside around where the terminal mounts to back of cabinet. This is needed to keep epoxy from spilling/blocking the terminal from being re-installed as will be clear from the next steps.

-Purchase 1 gallon of garage/shop floor 2 part epoxy. Mix small amount at a time and pour into one side of the cabinet - enough to get about 1/2" deep on all sides except sides where flat slot ports sit. Apply more than 1/2" on slot port sides to make sure the gap between port and wall is completely filled. Allow each side to harden enough to not move/shift and then turn over cabinet to do next side. Repeat until all sides are done. Ideally, you would also put some peel n' seal between the slot port and mdf wall - but this is a tight space and not easy. If you do it, the best way would be to apply thick paper to the sticky side of Peel N' Seal for this particular spot and first pour the epoxy and then shove the paper-backed peel n' seal into the space while the epoxy is still liquid so that the peel n' seal will be trapped securely in the epoxy. You will still need to apply the screening to the aluminum side of the peel n' seal.

-Go to $20 mod steps and now apply these to complete modification.

You may wonder why the seemingly complicated layered wall construction is needed. Well, this specific type

And, if you were going to recomend an inexpensive sub/pair of subs that would compliment the 2030's.
The 2030P is better than the price leads one to believe. There is no cheap subwoofer that matches the price of the 2030Ps and also matches the quality. To match quality, the least I would recommend is a pair of the entry level SVS subwoofers or equivalent. You can use the super low cost Dayton powered subs of course, but these will not match the quality of the 2030P speakers, especially when modified.

If you use a Behringer DCX2496 active crossover to integrate the 2030P with the subwoofers, you will have a system with SQ that is difficult to believe for the price. You do need a stereo receiver or integrated receiver with pre-outs and direct amp-in jack loops to use the DCX properly. Otherwise, you will need external amplifier for the 2030P speakers. Using the DCX as the xover and using it for critical tonal correction control to compensate for HF gradual curve and ideal baffle step compensation is critical to maximum SQ.

-Chris
 
N

ninethirty

Audiophyte
[snip interesting mod information...]
You may wonder why the seemingly complicated layered wall construction is needed. Well, this specific type
So I'm an innocent lurker, reading up on some mods to the b2030p, but I was stopped short by the cliffhanger sentence above. I'm sitting here thinking, "Yes, I'm curious why this seemingly complicated layered wall construction is needed. Do tell me, WmAx!" And then, I'm left hanging, season-finale style. "Well, this specific type " ... of layering makes the speakers so incredibly inert that even sounds from outside the speakers, in the next room even, are absorbed into their murky blackness? "Well, this specific type " ... of construction causes the Behringer logo to be magically replaced with "Genelec", so close are they in performance? "Well, this specific type " ... of sound deadening scares the sound waves into submission, faced with the prison-camp-like combination of asphalt and window screening (would adding barbed wire help?) I have a feeling the end of the sentence you had in mind was more practical, though. Can you help a poor fellow out?

Specifically, I'm wondering if this particular layered deadening material is comparable to, say, Blackhole 5 or one of the other commercially available deadening materials, or if it has a different design goal in mind. Blackhole 5 is expensive, but the Peel n' Seal and epoxy isn't cheap either, especially if you're doing only one pair of speakers. I could be way off base, though... thoughts?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Specifically, I'm wondering if this particular layered deadening material is comparable to, say, Blackhole 5 or one of the other commercially available deadening materials, or if it has a different design goal in mind. Blackhole 5 is expensive, but the Peel n' Seal and epoxy isn't cheap either, especially if you're doing only one pair of speakers. I could be way off base, though... thoughts?
Blackhole 5 or other commercial dampening products will not compare to the Stage 2 modification in any way shape or form. Even the stage 1 mod is substantially superior. Almost all of these commercial products are a joke IMO. You can get much better results by using the proper generic materials. It may seem/be difficult for most people to recognize these over priced gimmick solutions; but I have a more extensive foundation of knowledge as compared to the general enthusiast. I am familiar with the physical interaction(s) and relative co-efficient possible with various materials at subject here. Blackhole5 would certainly be better than simple plain acoustic foam of the same thickness by a small degree - but it's not worth the radical cost increase. You will better it easily using Peel N' Seal and 2" high density fiberglass or rockwool (4-8lb/per cubic foot).

If you apply stage 2 modification, you will have a relatively nuetral reference monitor for midbass and treble. Add stereo subs of good quality using a proper active crossover and you will have a stereo set up of absurdly high sound quality for the price. The B2030P has very good quality drivers and the performance of this speaker is extraordinary. It has extremely even off axis tonal balance. Even at 60 degrees +/- (120 degree window) the response up to 15kHz is nearly identical. This means the reverberant field in your room will have the same tonal balance as the direct sound; a critical factor for SQ in normal room acoustics. In addition, the speaker uses a quality crossover and drivers that exhibit very little break up mode resonance(s) in the audible band; far better than many speakers. Add a proper digital EQ and you can get a wide range of sound signatures to fit your preference(s).

As for my statement that I apparently cut off by accident:

"You may wonder why the seemingly complicated layered wall construction is needed. Well, this specific type ".....modification will ensure a system that has extraordinarily low resonance(s) of all type(s), giving you a timbre correct speaker system that can be easily manipulated to your personal preference(s) with a digital EQ system since it has such little coloration initially.

-Chris
 
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lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Blackhole 5 or other commercial dampening products will not compare to the Stage 2 modification in any way shape or form. Even the stage 1 mod is substantially superior. Almost all of these commercial products are a joke IMO. You can get much better results by using the proper generic materials. It may seem/be difficult for most people to recognize these over priced gimmick solutions; but I have a more extensive foundation of knowledge as compared to the general enthusiast. I am familiar with the physical interaction(s) and relative co-efficient possible with various materials at subject here. Blackhole5 would certainly be better than simple plain acoustic foam of the same thickness by a small degree - but it's not worth the radical cost increase. You will better it easily using Peel N' Seal and 2" high density fiberglass or rockwool (4-8lb/per cubic foot).

If you apply stage 2 modification, you will have a relatively nuetral reference monitor for midbass and treble. Add stereo subs of good quality using a proper active crossover and you will have a stereo set up of absurdly high sound quality for the price. The B2030P has very good quality drivers and the performance of this speaker is extraordinary. It has extremely even off axis tonal balance. Even at 60 degrees +/- (120 degree window) the response up to 15kHz is nearly identical. This means the reverberant field in your room will have the same tonal balance as the direct sound; a critical factor for SQ in normal room acoustics. In addition, the speaker uses a quality crossover and drivers that exhibit very little break up mode resonance(s) in the audible band; far better than many speakers. Add a proper digital EQ and you can get a wide range of sound signatures to fit your preference(s).

As for my statement that I apparently cut off by accident:

"You may wonder why the seemingly complicated layered wall construction is needed. Well, this specific type ".....modification will ensure a system that has extraordinarily low resonance(s) of all type(s), giving you a timbre correct speaker system that can be easily manipulated to your personal preference(s) with a digital EQ system since it has such little coloration initially.

-Chris
Call me a cheater but I prefer to just get drivers and build a box myself.

I think stage 2 is nice, but You might as well start from scratch IMO. Couldn't one also build the constraint layer on the outside of the speaker?
 
N

ninethirty

Audiophyte
WmAx, thanks for the detailed description. I'll definitely try peel n' seal and rockwool in my next speaker build... perhaps inside the Dayton BR-1 kit I have now. I like that idea a lot.

I think stage 2 is nice, but You might as well start from scratch IMO.
Perhaps, if you had drivers of comparable quality and built your own crossovers (or used the digital crossover). You could build something as good, I'm sure. But you still have to build the layered deadening composite inside your new box, so you're not saving any time, even with a simple box and a digital crossover. And I don't think you'd save money. But if you enjoy the speaker building process, it would be more fun.

I do wonder, though, WmAx -- with a sound deadening layer that thick, does that change the interior volume of the box enough to fundamentally change the speaker? At one point do you have to build a new, slightly bigger box?


Couldn't one also build the constraint layer on the outside of the speaker?
Do you mean the sound deadening material? No, it's designed to minimize the effects of the sound emanating from the rear of the driver bouncing around inside the enclosure, and to dampen the box resonance. It wouldn't do anything on the outside of the enclosure.

Thanks for the responses, all. That clears things up.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I do wonder, though, WmAx -- with a sound deadening layer that thick, does that change the interior volume of the box enough to fundamentally change the speaker? At one point do you have to build a new, slightly bigger box?
I specifically chose materials that would occupy minimum volume. In this speaker, the volume reduction will have a negligible effect. I measured the TS parameters of the mid-bass, measured the volume of before/after and the effects on the port tuning.

Lisberian's point is not proper IMO. The stage 2 mod requires NO woodwork skill or other building skills. You just need the basic (cheap) tools and materials specified and follow the instructions and you will end up with a fantastic quality enclosure to match the quality of the drivers and crossover used.

-Chris
 
Woogie526

Woogie526

Enthusiast
Back to the Budget System question

Just for audio components I've been looking at

For Receiver Sony STR-DG920

For Speakers.

4 JBL SoundPoint SP6II - for rear and sides

2 JBL SoundPoint SP8II - for fronts

1 JBL HTI 55 - for center

Total is around 989 I'm a total neophyte so could I do better with my money?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Just for audio components I've been looking at

For Receiver Sony STR-DG920

For Speakers.

4 JBL SoundPoint SP6II - for rear and sides

2 JBL SoundPoint SP8II - for fronts

1 JBL HTI 55 - for center

Total is around 989 I'm a total neophyte so could I do better with my money?
Well, I see you are going with in-walls. If you can use stand mount speakers, the Behringer B2030P speakers will be vastly superior, and cheaper as well. You can use the B2030P all around(L, R. CC, RS, LS).

As for the receiver, generally, I would recommend a nice factory refurbished model for that price range such as the nice Onkyos(model TX-SR706 for example), which you can get killer deals from www.accessories4less.com which have 1st rate customer service. Or even if you prefer new, the receiver from Yamaha in that same price bracket is probably better. Sony's receivers don't generally perform/measure very well when compared to proven brands like Yamaha, Onkyo, etc..

-Chris
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Just for audio components I've been looking at

For Receiver Sony STR-DG920

For Speakers.

4 JBL SoundPoint SP6II - for rear and sides

2 JBL SoundPoint SP8II - for fronts

1 JBL HTI 55 - for center

Total is around 989 I'm a total neophyte so could I do better with my money?
For sure.

The receiver is a poor choice. If your not buying a TV or a PS3 I suggest steering away from sony. They are good at those, but not at receivers. If you want a steal of a deal I suggest you check out audiogon. It's where audiophiles sell their used stuff. Audiophiles baby their equipment so you are safe buying from them.

Other places to check are the Harman Kardon ebay store. HK makes decent receivers with good amp sections. Their HDMI connections aren't the greatest, but if you don't need the new formats then the 247 is a nice receiver with easy setup and a decent remote.

The 706 is a step down from the 705. I suggest you shop for a used 705 first. They have every feature you could want and the best price for having those features. 400 bucks is the max I would pay for one. But still you won't get a better bang for your buck.

I suggest you start slow. Don't build this thing in one fell swoop. That's a lot of electronics to add to your place and a lot of change to drop. If your like most of us your better of building over time. I suggest starting of with a great pair of bookshelves and a nice sub.

The Behringer's paired with a Kappa build would be awesome. You can contract out the build to someone. Then look for a used amp on craigslist to drive it. Seriously start out 2.1 then as you get the funds add to your theater.

You spread out the financial blow and get the best deals over time. I did that and ended up with my surrounds, reciever, sub, and fronts at a fraction of the retail cost.

If you just want to buy a set of speakers then go to the speaker company. They have great sets for a decent price. Even In-walls that are pretty nice.
 
Woogie526

Woogie526

Enthusiast
Thanks

I'll have to look at the receivers, these ideas were generated in about 3 hours of research.

What is the problem with in-wall speakers?

I was going to purchase it all at once because, I have the green light from the miss's to open up walls and run wires as we are finishing the room.

When I get home I am going to post the floorplan of the room with furniture in the room setup thread I started now that I can post pictures.

I'm not sure there will be room for speakers that are not wall mounted or in wall. :/
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
What is the problem with in-wall speakers?
First, they don't sound as good as floorstanding or bookshelf ones.
Two, the inside wall does not make a good sounding speaker box.
Third, when they're installed, you cannot move them.
Fourth, you cannot generally get good imaging.
Fifth, because you cannot move them, they are impossible to fine tune.
Sixth, you end up with holes in your walls.
Seventh, you have to fish the wires, which can be very problematic.
Eighth, takes time and tools, and even then you end up with a mess.
Ninth, even if you hire a pro, you pay more that if you had bought regular speakers.
Tenth, all of the above. ;)

Bob
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
hmm so bottom line is not to get them?
Well... Unless there is no other alternative, like no room for free space speakers; or a small room, like 6 feet by 8 feet; or if you live in a coffin... :eek:
 
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