Andrew Jones and Chris Walker now with ELAC

[DD66000]

It gives the Pioneers a boost inasmuch as it implies that AJ is a competent, and well regarded loudspeaker designer. It doesn't indicate equivalence between the low-budget Pioneers and the high-end TADs.


I love the smell of snobbery in the morning.

You are not even close on that remark. In any fashion.
I do not spend insane amounts of money on audio or anything else.
You would not see ML amps, $22K speakers, $500/ft wires in this house.

I am telling you, that if we could make do when wages were much lower 40 years ago but a decent speaker was over $100, then...it should be no problem having to spend ≥ $400 today.

But some people have been buying these cheapo Pioneer speakers and then whining about their lack of quality. When the solution, from the start would have to spent a bit more money in the first place.
On the low end of the scale, you usually get what you pay for...spend a bit more, jump up in the quality received.

I mentioned to many people looking for speakers, who seem to want an entire 5.1 system, right now, but don't really have the cash on hand, to buy anything more than htib. To buy in stages...L/R first, sub or center next, surrounds last. Buying higher quality speakers at each stage and then they will not end up with buyers remorse, from having poor quality.

That is exactly what I did.

But I guess to you, that is being a snob.

 

[PENG]

Well, I'm not sure it's all that minor--new tweeter, new crossover, 4 hours of work. But I agree with your basic point. Also bear in mind that at the stock unit's retail price, it's very difficult to achieve consistent quality control in the Asian factories, particularly for fluid-filled tweeters. I suspect that a lot of the gripes about the stock units (and I haven't seen all that many) were from buyers who got out-of-spec tweeters.

Any plan moving closer to Toronto? Or at least setting up shops here? Canadian audioholics need you closer to them!!

 

[Steve81]

You are not even close on that remark. In any fashion. I do not spend insane amounts of money on audio or anything else. You would not see ML amps, $22K speakers, $500/ft wires in this house.

You don't need ML amps, $22K speakers, and $500/ft wires to be a snob. You just need to make comments like:

...it should be no problem having to spend ≥ $400 today.

But some people have been buying these cheapo Pioneer speakers and then whining about their lack of quality.

And many more have been quite pleased with the results of their purchase.

When the solution, from the start would have to spent a bit more money in the first place.

Or better yet, actually listening to the speakers before buying them.

 

[KEW]

$1 in 1973 = $5.52 today
The first pair of JBLs I bought in '73 were $275/ea. And they were not top-o-line.
So for the dollar of today, that is over $1500. But even if you cut that in half, $137 then/$750 now...still way above $126.

So, how much were you making? Were you living alone or with someone? How much were you spending on housing? on food? car? any kind of savings plan payment for retirement? did you have a steady job or a temp job (like most min. wage jobs are now)? Did you have a safety fund in case of getting laid off?

In school, I was a paperboy, then stock boy at McCrory's 5 & 10. Didn't make much, but I had little to no obligation with what I did make. In many ways, I had more discretionary income at that time of my life than until decades later. I didn't worry about retirement because I knew I would be going to college and making better money. I don't know what it would be like to be making minimum wage without job security or promise of substantial future wage increase; however, I do know it would not be like you envision!

$7.25 works out to $290/week or $245.13/week after taxes (I used GA, just 'cause, for state rate).
http://www.taxformcalculator.com/
I'd like to see you make a realistic budget which doesn't make spending $400 on speakers (plus the cost for the rest of the system-let's call it $700) reckless. You can choose whether to use public transit in the city (with higher rates for housing) or owning a car/insurance in a rural area.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Any plan moving closer to Toronto? Or at least setting up shops here? Canadian audioholics need you closer to them!!

The only way I could set up a shop in Canada is to sneak across the border in a white van loaded with monitors. Any particular Toronto parking lot that's convenient to you?

 

[PENG]

The only way I could set up a shop in Canada is to sneak across the border in a white van loaded with monitors. Any particular Toronto parking lot that's convenient to you?

Very funny, but seriously email/PM me wherever your white van is ready to come close to the border. I don't mind sneaking over especially if it is near the Niagara Falls.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Very funny, but seriously email/PM me wherever your white van is ready to come close to the border. I don't mind sneaking over especially if it is near the Niagara Falls.

I've shipped several pairs of speakers to Niagara Falls. That's not a problem if you're willing to pick them up from the company I've used.

 

[ATLAudio]

This DD66000 needs to work on his reading comprehension skills. Either that or just be a man an own up to his dubious claim

He made a claim that Pioneer speakers were "nothing to write home about"

This claim is false with any sort of google search. Instead of owning this claim as false he's shifting the debate outside the scope which anyone is claiming (strawman).

The Pioneer speakers are quality speakers for their price point which is demonstrated by independent testing done by Audioholics and other independent testing; they were also designed by Andrew Jones, who on aside also designed TAD speakers of a much higher quality and a much higher price point, which are also highly acclaimed.

Since we CAN verify that the pioneer speaker line were of good quality (for their price point,) the claim Gene and others are making is that AJ does make great products for both the budget and high dollar consumer. We aren't relying on a blind comparison, that AJ makes TAD so the Pioneer's HAVE to be good (begging the question), this is based off of evidence.

 

[skriefal]

You don't need ML amps, $22K speakers, and $500/ft wires to be a snob. You just need to make comments like:

...it should be no problem having to spend ≥ $400 today.

That's not snobbery. It's acknowledgement of reality. A $125 pair of speakers is a mere ~5 wage hours at the current average US hourly wage. It's quite an accomplishment that it manages to be satisfactory to many for so little $. But of course a $400 pair of speakers will (usually) be much better, and still only 16 wage hours at the current average US hourly wage. Is that too much to pay for something that you'll hopefully enjoy for many years? Many pay more than that for a (smart)watch, cell phone, iPod, etc, and replace them more frequently.

(Sure, some make less than the average hourly wage. But products can't be priced based upon that.)

 

[Steve81]

A $125 pair of speakers is a mere ~5 wage hours at the current average US hourly wage.

The median wage per person in the US according to the great Google is a tad under $27,000 a year, or roughly $13/hour. The speakers DD66000 was referring to were also $125/piece, not $125/pair. As such, we're closer to 20 hours of labor for one pair of speakers. However, one obviously needs more than just a pair of speakers to make the magic happen. At a minimum, someone looking to build a HT will need to add in a receiver, a DVD or BD player, cabling, and a TV. Want decent bass? You'll need a subwoofer. Surround sound? You need even more speakers.

Suffice it to say that these costs add up rather quickly. An example of this is seen with the Audioholics $1,000 5.1 Channel Recommended System, which is built around the Pioneer speakers in question, and still manages to go slightly over budget in spite of omitting a TV. Add in another $630 for a 55" Vizio TV, and you're over $1,700 for our hypothetical home theater. Going back to our median rate of $13/hour, that represents over 130 hours of labor. Even at $25 an hour, and not including the tax man's share, that's hefty 70 hours of labor.

Sure, some make less than the average hourly wage. But products can't be priced based upon that.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. No you can't price a Ferrari at $100 so a part time employee at Walmart can afford one. OTOH, companies can and do develop products to cater to those with less to spend. In some cases, such as the Pioneer's in question, those products are very good for the money spent.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

During 2012 AH GTG one of the vendors was Angel City Audio.
I auditioned their Trinity LR ($2600/pr) speakers and truth to be told - me and my wife thought of them worst of the show, even compared to HSU bookshelves.

More expensive doesn't always mean better.
2nd gen AJ Pioneers still represent great value, pretty much still unbeaten.
There are better speakers which cost more, but this is not rule, as there plenty of speakers which cost more but sound worse.

 

[skriefal]

The median wage per person in the US according to the great Google is a tad under $27,000 a year, or roughly $13/hour. The speakers DD66000 was referring to were also $125/piece, not $125/pair. As such, we're closer to 20 hours of labor for one pair of speakers. However, one obviously needs more than just a pair of speakers to make the magic happen. At a minimum, someone looking to build a HT will need to add in a receiver, a DVD or BD player, cabling, and a TV. Want decent bass? You'll need a subwoofer. Surround sound? You need even more speakers.

True. But note that I was referring to the average (mean), not the median. Such a large disparity between the mean and the median does indicate a problem... but one that is too political to be discussed in this thread.

Do the SP-BS22-LRs cost $125/6 USD each somewhere? I agree that they're not worth that much. They're worth that for a pair, as an easily-available and reasonably good entry-level option.

 

[Steve81]

True. But note that I was referring to the average (mean), not the median. Such a large disparity between the mean and the median does indicate a problem... but one that is too political to be discussed in this thread.

I understand; politics aside though, I'd argue that the median is the more important number as it indicates what the "average person" actually earns.

Do the SP-BS22-LRs cost $125/6 USD each somewhere?

I'm assuming DD66000 was talking about the SP-FS52 towers, as they're $130 apiece MSRP.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'm assuming DD66000 was talking about the SP-FS52 towers, as they're $130 apiece MSRP.

agreed
D66000 did mentioned "$126/ea" price - which directly correlates only to towers which are prices per each.

Are you telling me we need $126 speakers cause that is all some minimum wage earner in the US can spend?

Dear DD66000, you may not realize that but that little sentence is full of elitism and snobbery
What you're implying is that we don't need low-budget speakers, because who gives a damn about low income population !

I suggest you go and do some reading before spreading such non-sense
This article for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States
Specifically this part: "Around 44% of homeless people are employed."
Think about this - think hard - 44% ARE Employed, but don't have sufficient income for ANY stable housing !!
Another one:
http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2014/demo/p60-249.pdf
Per Fed Gov: Median income for Household is $51,700/year and significantly lower among Hispanic and Afro Americans

So do you honestly think that 50k household does not deserve decent speakers?
Sure, they could spend a bit more, but then again they could save up for nicer vacation.
There are millions ways to spend money, but $50k/year household income I doubt such VERY TYPICAL family has much of disposable income.

P.S: I know someone, who despite being sole earner in household has income levels comparable to successful lawyer or a doctor. He bough tCs 5.1 set during tCs liquidation I think for $700 or so and perfectly happy with it, despite my many attempts to change his mind to upgrade.

 

[Chu Gai]

So, when does a speaker suck?

 

[KEW]

So, when does a speaker suck?

When it has a poorly designed cheap aluminum tweeter!
When you cannot enjoy music because it hurts your ears.

 

[highfigh]

That may be...but I've seen more than a few posts from people who bought AJ designed Pioneer speakers and were not too happy with them...wanting something better.
As for reviews in paid Advertisement mags...
I'll stick with MY custom design.

I'd like to know what they were expecting. Not going in with an open mind is the best way to hate a purchase consideration and if they didn't do much comparison shopping, they didn't have many options.

BTW- the fact that you're accepting the opinions of online posters as fact without listening to them tells me that you need to get over yourself.

 

[highfigh]

What I am inferring is there is not enough cash being spent (even if made in China) to produce those speakers to make them a good choice. $126/ea? So saying AJ also designs Tad means nothing to the quality of these Pioneer speakers.

From Dennis
"Well, I'm not sure it's all that minor--new tweeter, new crossover, 4 hours of work."

Those upgraded parts/ extra work could have been done at the factory. And how many more $ would that require? Not much.

$1 in 1973 = $5.52 today
The first pair of JBLs I bought in '73 were $275/ea. And they were not top-o-line.
So for the dollar of today, that is over $1500. But even if you cut that in half, $137 then/$750 now...still way above $126.

Do you see the disparity?
Are you telling me we need $126 speakers cause that is all some minimum wage earner in the US can spend? Minimum wages back then were <$2, and a decent speaker was >$100.

$100 for speakers is hard to fork over for a lot of people here. Your profile shows SA- where is that? South America, South Africa, San Antonio?

There are far worse speakers for $100, even used.

 

[rojo]

Threads like this make me miss the old AH forums' Chiclet system. I bet DD66000's karma dots would've looked like Jackson Pollock's ketchup-covered French fries.

 

[Chu Gai]

What's the reason(s) why AJ left Pioneer? The real ones not the kissy kissy nice ones written by publicists for public consumption?