Amp recommendation for $75K system

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am thinking about buying a new pre-pro at some point - may be emotiva xmc? I have not decided yet.

Since you will have 5 bad-a$$ XPA-1s, it will only make sense to me if you wait and buy the flagship Emotiva pre-pros, whenever it comes out.

 

[VladP]

Wow. Nice speaker system. How much did you pay for your speaker system, if you don't mind me asking.

I know five XPA-1s will cost you $5K + S/H.

With the new Oppo BD/SACD/DVD-A player, which can get DSD, MLP, PCM, TrueHD, & DTS-HD via HDMI, would you still need the 5910?

Do you think you will upgrade to the 800Ds at some point?

I bought all my speakers used - 802D - $8K, 803D - $5K, HTM2D - $3.2K. I am extremely happy with the speakers and I think I am done shopping for speakers for a long, long time. I know 800Ds are better but I am not going there, or I would have to sell my house 802D's are simply amazing.

I am re-selling my W4S (I had 3 of them, 1 sx1000 and 2 st1000) and this would cover most of the cost of xpa-1s. So far I also really like XPA-1 and I hope I would not be tempted to look for new amps for a long time.

I am keeping my denon 5910. First, it is region free. Second, I have lots of SACDs and DVD-AUDIOs and I want to make sure I have something to play them on.

 

[VladP]

Oh, man ABOVE 1% THD?

I didn't know that.

Did you know that BEFORE you bought these amps?

NO

 

[Lordoftherings]

Wow. Nice speaker system. How much did you pay for your speaker system, if you don't mind me asking.

That's kind of rude, isn't?

 

[Lordoftherings]

I know five XPA-1s will cost you $5K + S/H.

I think that he knows that already.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Wow. Do you think you will upgrade to the 800Ds at some point?

Why not go all the way with the Nautilus? Might as well.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Since you will have 5 bad-a$$ XPA-1s, it will only make sense to me if you wait and buy the flagship Emotiva pre-pros, whenever it comes out.

When? Under ground resting in peace?

 

[PaulF]

Well, I have had Emotiva XPA-1 for a few days and I don't think I need any more time to make a conclusion - I am keeping XPA-1 and I am buying three more XPA-1 for my 5-channel system. My W4S amps are going for sale.

XPA-1 appear to be much better with high frequencies on my B&W802D (IMO of course). I used the same recordings I had problems with W4S and the top end was much smoother with XPA-1. If before I would get extremely fatigued with these particular recordings using W4S after a fairly short time, now with XPA-1 I can listen for hours. Clearly these are my subjective evaluations, but I really like XPA-1 with my B&W802D. I also think that XPA-1 sound as good or better across the board, not just with HF and the sound has more "meat" to it.

The drawback for XPA-1 is their huge size and energy consumption. Five XPA-1's would take a lot of space and would likely raise my electric bill. W4S are much more compact and easy to place, but I want to enjoy all my recordings and it was not possible with W4S.

Vlad, glad to hear the Emotivas delivered positive results. My guess was it would but wanted to hear your impressions first. I can see how listener fatigue can set in after hearing a few class d amps. What do you think about the sound stage and imaging? Can you note differences from the W4S?

I am considering the XPA-2 and XPA-5 combo as a pairing for my new B&Ws, simply because I can't really deal with seven monoblocks in the rack. I will end up with the same three fronts as you, except I am planning to use in-wall 8180s for surrounds.

I wonder if Gene will list five or seven XPA-1s as an alternative to the Denon in his $75K system recommendation.

Well, the main thing is that the XPA-1 worked for you.

I suppose there are things we just can't explain.

Theoretically, if the amps and speakers have a flat frequency repsonse, the sound should be pretty good.

There are many other factors. We have discussed phase response and how that impacts the sound staging and imaging in the past. In the amps there are also parameters like slew rate and the ability to deliver large amounts of current which affect the heft of the lower end. Also a quieter amp will give the impression of more detail.

Vlad, if you put your ear to the tweeter and normal listening levels with no sound, can your hear anything?

 

[VladP]

Vlad, glad to hear the Emotivas delivered positive results. My guess was it would but wanted to hear your impressions first. I can see how listener fatigue can set in after hearing a few class d amps. What do you think about the sound stage and imaging? Can you note differences from the W4S?

I am considering the XPA-2 and XPA-5 combo as a pairing for my new B&Ws, simply because I can't really deal with seven monoblocks in the rack. I will end up with the same three fronts as you, except I am planning to use in-wall 8180s for surrounds.

I wonder if Gene will list five or seven XPA-1s as an alternative to the Denon in his $75K system recommendation.



There are many other factors. We have discussed phase response and how that impacts the sound staging and imaging in the past. In the amps there are also parameters like slew rate and the ability to deliver large amounts of current which affect the heft of the lower end. Also a quieter amp will give the impression of more detail.

Vlad, if you put your ear to the tweeter and normal listening levels with no sound, can your hear anything?

Everything with XPA-1s sounds great. Once I disconnected my W4S and put XPA-1s, I really had no desire to put the W4S back in the system. I think that overall sound is different, but I really don't know how to pinpoint the differences. Everything with XPA-1s just sounds right, accurate and relaxing at the same time.

Both W4S and XPA-1 were silent when no music was played. Both produced some hum and hiss with balanced IC, but not with RCAs. No hiss with either one after I have dealt with all that ground loop crap. I don't know why balanced IC are noisier. I linked the noise to Emotiva DMC1. If I unplug the balanced IC, the speakers are silent. With regular ICs - speakers are quite silent (may be a very slight hiss when you put your ear right to the tweeter). After reading the review of XPA-1 I was worried about the noise from the speakers, but it is just not there with unbalanced ICs.

The XPA-1's do produce some transformer hum and so I would have to deal with that.

XPA-1's are huge and heavy, but I am going to have 5 of them. the specs for xpa-2 look quite a bit worse.

 

[VladP]

When? Under ground resting in peace?

I would hope a bit earlier

 

[Lordoftherings]

I would hope a bit earlier

Lol. Me too. So as a bunch of more people too.

* Anyway, I feel a bit guilty here with my raffles to AcuDefTechGuy.

So, I will like to say to him personally, that it is not in my usual habits to be that sarcastic with my multiple humoristic posts.

I like the sense of humor of the guy, so I just got lost a bit by my own sense of humor.
No hard feeling towads you, AcuDefTechGuy.
You can do the same to me, no problem buddy.

Regards,

Bob

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Lol. Me too. So as a bunch of more people too.

* Anyway, I feel a bit guilty here with my raffles to AcuDefTechGuy.

So, I will like to say to him personally, that it is not in my usual habits to be that sarcastic with my multiple humoristic posts.

I like the sense of humor of the guy, so I just got lost a bit by my own sense of humor.
No hard feeling towads you, AcuDefTechGuy.
You can do the same to me, no problem buddy.

Regards,

Bob

Oh, I know we're all just having some kicks.
Wouldn't want to get boring.

Well, if I ever have enough money to get 5 B&W 800Ds or Nautilus, I will let you guys know exactly how much I spent down to the cents.

 

[PaulF]

XPA-1's are huge and heavy, but I am going to have 5 of them. the specs for xpa-2 look quite a bit worse.

Vlad, what specs are you referring to?

 

[VladP]

Vlad, what specs are you referring to?

See http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-amplifiers/496-a-secrets-power-amplifier-review.html?start=3

THD for XPA-2 are quite a bit higher compared to the XPA-1.
At 5V input, THD rise to about 0.1% at 10 Khz and reach 0.2% at 20 Khz.

For XPA-1, THD is below 0.003% between 10khz and 20khz. At max output into 8ohm, the highest THD is at 20 khz and it is 0.02% - 10 times less than that in XPA-2.

THD vs power also show similar differences - THD in XPA-1 are much lower compared to XPA-2.

I don't know whether these 10 fold differences in THD are audible, but there are clear differences in THD between XPA-1 and XPA-2.

 

[PaulF]

Hmmm, when I look at Secrets own THD+N figures for the XPA-1 and XPA-2 they look about the same, about 0.2% at 10kHz for the XPA-1, about 0.15% at 10kHz for the XPA-2.

Though I think their measurements were flawed due to induced noise.

Emotiva rates them equal in the manuals for THD -- <0.04%.

On their web site they list:

XPA-2 -- THD+N at rated power output: 0.007% (reference not listed, probably 1kHz)
XPA-1 -- THD at rated power for all impedance is 0.03% (referenced from 20 to 20Khz)

Anyway, no problems they both look like good amps.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Hey Paul, did you find that amp(s) yet for that $75,000 system?

Just be a pure audiophile with a smart attitude, and get a Theta Digital Dreadnaught III for only $4,000 (less for the street price of course). I'll bet you'll be able to strike a deal for about 3 big ones.

Besides, this amp will give you 225 watts per channel into 8ohms by 10 channels of amplification. And 450 watts per channel (8-ohm loads) times 10. That's still 4 and a half kilowatts of pure sound! And for quite less than a dollar per watt!

Plus, the sound quality will bring Heaven into your home Theater system.

LOTR

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For a $75K system, I still vote for the Emotiva XPA-1 as the amp of choice for that awesome solid-state true power of 500-watts RMS into 8 ohms and 1000-watts RMS into 4 ohms 20Hz-20kHz.

 

[VladP]

Hmmm, when I look at Secrets own THD+N figures for the XPA-1 and XPA-2 they look about the same, about 0.2% at 10kHz for the XPA-1, about 0.15% at 10kHz for the XPA-2.

Though I think their measurements were flawed due to induced noise.

Emotiva rates them equal in the manuals for THD -- <0.04%.

On their web site they list:

XPA-2 -- THD+N at rated power output: 0.007% (reference not listed, probably 1kHz)
XPA-1 -- THD at rated power for all impedance is 0.03% (referenced from 20 to 20Khz)

Anyway, no problems they both look like good amps.

Secrets own measurements for THD are not correct - they state it right there and refer to Emotiva measurements. Audioholics measurements for XPA-2 are similar to those in Secrets.

You need to look at the detailed graphs of THD vs frequency and THD vs Power - there are large differences between XPA-1 and XPA-2.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-amplifiers/520-a-secrets-power-amplifier-review.html?start=3

If you look at the average THD, ICE modules look great too, but when you see the detailed specs, then you see that THD is quite high within high frequency range.

XPA-2 seems like a good amp with fairly low distortion, but it is not even close to XPA-1 in terms of distortion. XPA-1 (if we believe Emotiva measurements) is just on a different level.

 

[PaulF]

Hey Paul, did you find that amp(s) yet for that $75,000 system?

Just be a pure audiophile with a smart attitude, and get a Theta Digital Dreadnaught III for only $4,000 (less for the street price of course). I'll bet you'll be able to strike a deal for about 3 big ones.

Besides, this amp will give you 225 watts per channel into 8ohms by 10 channels of amplification. And 450 watts per channel (8-ohm loads) times 10. That's still 4 and a half kilowatts of pure sound! And for quite less than a dollar per watt!

Plus, the sound quality will bring Heaven into your home Theater system.

LOTR

I think there is some confusion, I am not going to spend $75K but rather was referring to the amp in the AH $75K system. Though my system will ultimately be expensive too.

Finally some info on the Dreadnaugh III. The problem I have with the Thetas is their power consumption in standby mode, this is a deal killer for me. In the configuration I would want the amp uses 160W in standby ... and no, I'm not willing to use the power switch when I can use an external trigger instead.

For a $75K system, I still vote for the Emotiva XPA-1 as the amp of choice for that awesome solid-state true power of 500-watts RMS into 8 ohms and 1000-watts RMS into 4 ohms 20Hz-20kHz.

No doubt the XPA-1 is the top of the line for Emo... but the space required for monoblocks and a $7K investment would lead me to look at alternatives. I don't need 500W of power.

Secrets own measurements for THD are not correct - they state it right there and refer to Emotiva measurements. Audioholics measurements for XPA-2 are similar to those in Secrets.

You need to look at the detailed graphs of THD vs frequency and THD vs Power - there are large differences between XPA-1 and XPA-2.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-amplifiers/520-a-secrets-power-amplifier-review.html?start=3

If you look at the average THD, ICE modules look great too, but when you see the detailed specs, then you see that THD is quite high within high frequency range.

XPA-2 seems like a good amp with fairly low distortion, but it is not even close to XPA-1 in terms of distortion. XPA-1 (if we believe Emotiva measurements) is just on a different level.

The only better specs I see are the charts which are supposedly provided by Emotiva. I don't believe the THD+N chart, typically if you include noise it would increase with freq. I also don't see how taking a two channel amp and using it as one differential amp can reduce distortion. You can cancel noise but not distortion. Each half of the amp would still contribute the same amount.

I called Emotiva and they told me the distortion figures are about the same. I can't find two figures from Emotiva that agree or that were measured the same way, so really don't know what to think.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think there is some confusion, I am not going to spend $75K but rather was referring to the amp in the AH $75K system. Though my system will ultimately be expensive too.

Finally some info on the Dreadnaugh III. The problem I have with the Thetas is their power consumption in standby mode, this is a deal killer for me. In the configuration I would want the amp uses 160W in standby ... and no, I'm not willing to use the power switch when I can use an external trigger instead.



No doubt the XPA-1 is the top of the line for Emo... but the space required for monoblocks and a $7K investment would lead me to look at alternatives. I don't need 500W of power.



The only better specs I see are the charts which are supposedly provided by Emotiva. I don't believe the THD+N chart, typically if you include noise it would increase with freq. I also don't see how taking a two channel amp and using it as one differential amp can reduce distortion. You can cancel noise but not distortion. Each half of the amp would still contribute the same amount.

I called Emotiva and they told me the distortion figures are about the same. I can't find two figures from Emotiva that agree or that were measured the same way, so really don't know what to think.

I have to repeat that the Quad 909s will best the lot of them. Pure class A sound without the complications such as high quiescent current consumption with high output device failure rate. The 909 is one sweet amp, very trouble free with a long life expected, and it will hold its specs to a ripe old age. You can't ask for more. I consider it the finest domestic amplifier available without reservation. It holds up well in pro applications and they are often used as such. A professional version is available at high cost.