P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you for clarifying your point Jack. The fact is, I am not aware of any current mid level (say one that costs>$500) receiver that don't have individual discrete internal amps. For examples, any 7 channel Yamaha RX-V series receivers would have 7 discrete internal amplifiers.

Your other question about better SQ at relatively lower level is one that I cannot answer. It is like the double blind test thing, there are at least two camps of people. All I can say is that more power is always better, whether you need it or not. Other than that, I would say for sure you need an external amp if you have one or more of the following conditions/environment:

1. A relatively large room, e.g. 25X20X10.
2. 6 ohm nominal speakers with sensitivity<87 dB.
3. 4 ohm speakers.
4. Difficult to drive speakers.
5. Listen to 5, 7 Stereo mode. (I don't, to me that's not true stereo, and it won't sound anything remotely like live music, but some people like it, this mode is very demanding on a multi-channel mid level receiver).
6. Your mid level receiver has a nice prepro section but a weak, aging, or defective power amp section.
7. You enjoy listening at high SPL levels, say >90 dB all the time and your favourite music produces very high and frequent dynamic peaks (check in with an audiologist regularly in that case).
8. You have great hearing, or gifted ability, that you really could pick out different mid level receivers and amps in a blind test based on their different SQ, slight difference in fequency response, and/or distortion levels.
9. You firmly believe you have such gifted hearing even though you don't.
10. You want to have peace of mind, knowing that your receiver is now back up by a 5 or 7X200WPC external amp such that you don't have to worry about whether you are subjected to conditions 1 through 9.

For me, 10 alone, is a good enough reason to get an amp.

Note: I am talking about upgrade receiver vs adding an ext. amp, none of the above applies to people who own all truely high end components from source to speakers.
 
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M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Jack Hammer said:
I was under the impression that most mid-level recievers used a single shared amplifier to supply power (sound) to all of the speakers. Whereby a high quality external amplifier used one amplification unit (not sure what to call it) per channel. example: a 3 ch external amp would contain 3 separate amps for my fronts vs a reviever having one amp to power those same 3 speakers. (basically sharing bandwidth)
Receivers use a single shared *power supply* but have a discrete amplifier for each channel. The amplifiers share the power supply and that power supply is rarely large enough to drive all channels at the same time to their rated power. Fortunately though real music will never call on the power supply to power all channels at the same time.

Separate amps may or may not have a separate power supply for each channel as Peng pointed out earlier.
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
Thanks, that helped a lot. It makes more sense too. I do have 4ohm speakers and my Denon 2805 has never had any problems powering them. I'm upgrading to a more power hungry 4ohm speaker and I've noticed when I tried them out the reciever seemed to be working a lot harder.

A local Denon rep told me that upgrading to any reciever at or above the 3805 would give me enough power, more dynamic range, and better sound with 4ohm speakers. In another thread, it was recomended I just keep what I've got and add an external amp, hence the confusion on my part. That and I totally misunderstood the difference between discrete amplification per channel vs power supply.

I think for now I'll add the amp, then upgrade the reciever later (i'd like hdmi switching & more zones).


Jack
 
G

Gov

Senior Audioholic
I just placed an order for the Emotiva LPA-1 today. I have a Pioneer 1014 and listen to music in 7 channel stereo all the time. I also wanted a bit more headroom just because. Anyway, Mr Hammer, you should consider this, its only $499 with free shipping until the end of the month :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Jack Hammer said:
I think for now I'll add the amp, then upgrade the reciever later (i'd like hdmi switching & more zones).

Jack
That is the right decision for your 4 ohm speakers. If you want to do it right the first time, don't go with anything less than 200WPC and make sure it is rated for at least 300WPC into 4 ohms.
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
PENG said:
That is the right decision for your 4 ohm speakers. If you want to do it right the first time, don't go with anything less than 200WPC and make sure it is rated for at least 300WPC into 4 ohms.
I'm considering (and keeping an eye out for) a used Parasound 2205a(t). It's 220w into 8ohms and 300w @4ohms. No real reason for Parasound over other amps, I just like the numbers, they've got a very good rep, I've yet to see any type of negative review of their equipment.

Jack
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Jack Hammer said:
I'm considering (and keeping an eye out for) a used Parasound 2205a(t). It's 220w into 8ohms and 300w @4ohms. No real reason for Parasound over other amps, I just like the numbers, they've got a very good rep, I've yet to see any type of negative review of their equipment.

Jack
The 2205A is ridiculously powerful. 2 kVA transformer (plug it in to a 20A circuit please), 1.5 dB headroom, 30,000 microfarads per channel. Based on reviews, it probably sounds as great as the Halo line. With those 4 ohm speakers you have, how can you wait, go for it!
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
PENG said:
The 2205A is ridiculously powerful. 2 kVA transformer (plug it in to a 20A circuit please), 1.5 dB headroom, 30,000 microfarads per channel. Based on reviews, it probably sounds as great as the Halo line. With those 4 ohm speakers you have, how can you wait, go for it!
I'm only waiting for the check to clear...should be tomorrow.:D

Then I just have to find one. They pop up on eBay and audiogon about twice a month. I'll probably jump on the next decent looking one I find.

Thanks for the help

Jack
 
M

moreira85

Audioholic Chief
2 channel or 5 channel.

i have been reading a lot about the benfit of adding an amp, if you use your speakers for mostly home theater is their any benefit in getting a five channel amp, or does a 2 channel amp that hooks up to the mains free up the receiver so that the center and surrounds dont need a separate amp?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If you have something like a Denon 380X, yamaha 2X00 (X>=5), HK6XX, Pioneer Elite or equivalent, a 3 channel amp would be the best choice IMHO. Even a 2 channel one will do unless your room is relatively large and/or your speakers are 4 ohms or inefficient. My point is, the receivers I listed have adequate power (supported by published lab test results) for the surround channels, so why not put them to good use.

A five channel amp is nice but it gets big and heavy and the surround channels won't be utilized much unless you listen to 5/7 channel stereo modes all the time. I can never understand why people would bother with 5/7 channel stereo but many do enjoy those modes.
 
M

moreira85

Audioholic Chief
i am leaning towards the 2 channel for the mains and i figured it would be pointless to hook up a 5 channel to the surrounds, what about the center?? any benefit in hooking it up the center and the mains, i have a boston Acoustic VR910 powered by yamaha 5960 115wpc. i was thinking of just amping the mains.
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
Are you using a sub and do you have your mains set to small as you should be when using a sub? An external amp is probably unnecessary if this is the case. An external amp probably unnecessary any case, but you get the idea.

Nick
 
M

moreira85

Audioholic Chief
yes they are set to small, and i am running 2 subs 1 of them being BA PV1000,
why do you feel an amp is unnecessary, have you read this forum, at higher SPLs there may be a benefit and by freeing up the burden off of the receivers amps to only power the surrounds and the center you could have the external amp power the mains it may add as benefit, then again maybe not. anyway back to my original question should I run the center off external 3 way amp or just the mains w/ a 2 way Adcom? I am running Boston VR3s, which adcom do you recomend and how many watts per channel, i was thinking 125 wpc w/ adcom GFA5400 as the 5500 may be too much at 200 wpc or unnecessary any thoughts would help.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
I won't belabor the point why external amps are usually unnecessary, but if I were you and decided to use external amps for whatever reason, I would lean toward a 3 channel so I could amp the mains and the center. The center is probably the most important speaker for HT so why not put it on equal footing with the front channels?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
MDS said:
The center is probably the most important speaker for HT so why not put it on equal footing with the front channels?

Yes, :D One can test this by unplugging the center and see how much the L/R is used in a movie:D
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
moreira85 said:
yes they are set to small, and i am running 2 subs 1 of them being BA PV1000,
why do you feel an amp is unnecessary, have you read this forum, at higher SPLs there may be a benefit and by freeing up the burden off of the receivers amps to only power the surrounds and the center you could have the external amp power the mains it may add as benefit, then again maybe not.
You are assuming the receiver is over burnded in the first place which most likely it's not. There are many people on both sides of this issue however, and until you run have exhausted your audio budget get what sounds best to you since that's the ultimate goal. There is a "sticky" at the top of the amps forum here called THE ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN FALLACY that addresses a lot of these issues.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14222

Nick
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
I've been having thoughts about getting an amp and am thinking maybe I should pick up a 3 channel amp instead. My receiver has had no problems driving my surrounds (4ohm) and they are not being changed. Why not use the amp in my receiver? Plus I have concerns about tripping the circuit breaker in my place If I run too many things. I've seen these, Parasound hca2003a, used at a decent price. They are a little more affordable and have similar specs to the 5 channel amp I was looking at.

Any thoughts?

Jack
 
T

Tyreman

Audioholic Intern
I personally don't think that you will see any sonic benefit really noticeable with normal listening levels and somewhat above if your speakers are of decent efficiency.
Its to close in size your your existing yamaha home theatre unit.
However one could experiment if one wanted to and had the opportunity to borrow something and try it out.
No harm there.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Tyreman said:
However one could experiment if one wanted to and had the opportunity to borrow something and try it out.
No harm there.

Unless bias will render it unreliable:D
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
mtrycrafts said:
Unless bias will render it unreliable:D
The big one will win.

Unless there is two.

Then, the pretty one will win.

Oh lord. What to do? There is a pretty big one as well.:D
 

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